Thoughts on Moore (ref) Last night?

[49er]

I actually thought he was ok last night aside from the slow ptb but that was against both teams. So was the short 10.
The ptb is as bad as ever to be honest, they all seem to totally ignore the messing around most of the time.

We need to look at own performances at the moment before going after referees.

My point was just about his performance and how others see it. I didn’t make any reference to him being partly or wholly responsible for Saints performance. So on your last point I wasn’t ‘going after referees’.

 

[retro74]

I’ve watched it back now, he definitely favoured Huddersfield. It wasn’t a bad performance but they got a lot of decisions in their favour that were clearly incorrect

 

[STIDDY]

There are a couple of refs of which Liam Moore and Jack Smith are the worse ones around that PTB area. In the distant past games against Leeds and Warrington were entertaining fast games with very quick rucks but its a lottery now and a frustrating one.

I hate Moore reffing our games now he very rarely lets the game flow, I,m pretty sure if we went to quicker rucks our attack would improve and we would be less critical. Moore and Kendall do quite a lot of guesswork, forward passes become OK, loose carries become ball strips, tacklers trapping themselves into the ruck are allowed.

I,ve given up on the 6 agains, watched last nights replay and found myself shouting at the screen when Huddersfield were getting them and Saints never got any for the first 70 mins of the game.

 

[Albion]

The thing about the ref ‘letting the game flow’ is that it often leads to a game that is anything but flowing because teams get away with murder at the ruck. That was the case last night.

Another problem is that you end up with a less consistent performance, as the ref seems to feel inclined to blow for something when it has a potentially serious consequence but not at other times (see Moore suddenly remembering the offside rule when Hudds knocked on in their own 20 with under 10 mins to go and the scores level).

The charge down decision was just barmy.

There is definitely a spectrum and somewhere between letting the game go and mid ground with over refereeing the game would be perfect.

I think Moore was too much towards letting the game go and it led to a slow game, I agree. However, I would much prefer last night to a ref who is whistle happy.

 

[Belgian Saint]

once again though Huddersfields coach complained

I thought his comments were much more even handed las night.

 

[Belgian Saint]

I've now watched back that second half and a few things stood out that I hadn't realised how contentious they were at the time, illustrating just how much help Moore gave them in the closing stages.

1) just before 69 mins, we make a break and Welsby is tackled. He doesn't hear 'held' and tries to carry on, with Moore sending him back to play the ball. All fine and correct. As Welsby goes to play the ball, Ikahihifo literally puts his hand on the ball to stop the PTB. Welsby shakes him off and plays it, but that extra couple of seconds allows Hudds to better set their defence. Moore does cock all.

2) just before 72 mins, we have Hudds pegged back into their own 10. Lolohea brings the ball from DH. First Knowles then Lomax aim to dislodge the ball on impact with their tackles, and Lomax succeeds - a weak carry and a knock on. Knowles and Lomax were the two markers. For one of the only times in the match, Moore gives offside, indicating it was our right-hand defence who were offside. Firstly, none of those are even near the ball. Secondly, the replay shows as the Sky camera pans out, that nobody was offside. Not one. They're all in line with Moore and don't even move up quickly. He made it up - and it's hard not to think it was to give Hudds a chance, because we had them half-comatose on the ropes at that stage.

3) 74 mins, we kick on the last and Wallis (who seemed all game to be copying Connor's tantrum tactics) is tackled about 3m from their line by Whitley. Lees, following up, just leans on him about a second after Wallis is grounded. Moore blows up for a flop. Technically, it's a flop and penalty (on the really soft end of the scale). My beef is that far worse were perpetrated by Hudds throughout the game (including some really aggressive ones designed to hurt/injure the ball carrier - Cudjoe is a shithouse for it), which were ignored by Moore.

All the above happened in a 5 minute period when we were turning the screw.

The second two especially gave them the opportunity to relieve the pressure.

The second two especially were given for 'offences' that Moore had persistently ignored the entire game previously.

And that doesn't even mention the worst, most biased single referring act by him, which was of course the failure to go 'back to one' when they charged down the DG attempt.

You are right about Cudjoe. Maybe be because he is too slow now but he really tries every snide trick going.
Always thought he was ok until he started mouthing off against Knowles on twitter. The sly remarks and t@chics seem to coincide with his growing ineffectiveness.

 

[CaseyJ]

My point was just about his performance and how others see it. I didn’t make any reference to him being partly or wholly responsible for Saints performance. So on your last point I wasn’t ‘going after referees’.

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn’t referring to anyone using the ref as an excuse for playing shite.

I’m more annoyed at Wellens than anyone at the moment. He knew the expectations completely before he took over, he got cut some slack last season after the WCC but this season has been even worse. He stated before the season it was his intention to improve our attack, so 1. He’s either full of shit or 2. He’s incapable of making the required changes, and signings for that matter.

 

[CYCLOPSE]

I thought he was OK. He wasn't having Jake the Snake reffing the game and stood him down well. The PTB was Watsonesque in slowing down a game to allow his process of fustration to be achieved.

 

[clintsmate]

I've now watched back that second half and a few things stood out that I hadn't realised how contentious they were at the time, illustrating just how much help Moore gave them in the closing stages.

1) just before 69 mins, we make a break and Welsby is tackled. He doesn't hear 'held' and tries to carry on, with Moore sending him back to play the ball. All fine and correct. As Welsby goes to play the ball, Ikahihifo literally puts his hand on the ball to stop the PTB. Welsby shakes him off and plays it, but that extra couple of seconds allows Hudds to better set their defence. Moore does cock all.

2) just before 72 mins, we have Hudds pegged back into their own 10. Lolohea brings the ball from DH. First Knowles then Lomax aim to dislodge the ball on impact with their tackles, and Lomax succeeds - a weak carry and a knock on. Knowles and Lomax were the two markers. For one of the only times in the match, Moore gives offside, indicating it was our right-hand defence who were offside. Firstly, none of those are even near the ball. Secondly, the replay shows as the Sky camera pans out, that nobody was offside. Not one. They're all in line with Moore and don't even move up quickly. He made it up - and it's hard not to think it was to give Hudds a chance, because we had them half-comatose on the ropes at that stage.

3) 74 mins, we kick on the last and Wallis (who seemed all game to be copying Connor's tantrum tactics) is tackled about 3m from their line by Whitley. Lees, following up, just leans on him about a second after Wallis is grounded. Moore blows up for a flop. Technically, it's a flop and penalty (on the really soft end of the scale). My beef is that far worse were perpetrated by Hudds throughout the game (including some really aggressive ones designed to hurt/injure the ball carrier - Cudjoe is a shithouse for it), which were ignored by Moore.

All the above happened in a 5 minute period when we were turning the screw.

The second two especially gave them the opportunity to relieve the pressure.

The second two especially were given for 'offences' that Moore had persistently ignored the entire game previously.

And that doesn't even mention the worst, most biased single referring act by him, which was of course the failure to go 'back to one' when they charged down the DG attempt. I saw all of those things exactly the same way, and as for the 'charge down', the most disgraceful thing was the way he delayed

This is such a good post from BN. I saw all of the above the same way. As for the 'chargedown' debacle at the end, the most disgraceful thing about it was the way the referee delayed signalling it was the last tackle until Clarke had picked the ball up and started moving forward. Even though the Saints players were all asking the referee for clarification he seemed to deliberately ignore them. It worked out okay in the end but I was going ballistic in the stands (until Lomax dropped the goal).
The referee's poor management of the PTB made it difficult to get any momentum, along with the skinny ten yards which closes down space, and since we do not have the pace in the backs to lie deeper in attack, the opposition defence close us down far too easily. (but this is a regular problem with our attack, one of many ATM I'm afraid.)

 

[Alshep]

I think he won us the game with the charge down debacle tbh. We get away with a fair bit in most games, if it's not penalised then generally it's not noticed by fans. It's the inconsistent decisions that get me, if you blow for one thing blow for them all match then no-one can really argue. Even taking into account that it's a tough job to see 100% of everything that goes on there a certain things like offside (sorry.....line speed!!) That should never be missed with a ref and 2 touch judges. I think RL in general is blighted by the combination of slow PB's and piss poor regulation of onside/offside. I feel a lot of these tackles are judged as reckless because by the time the reciever is catching the ball the defence is right there....giving no space for decent attack and no time for the defender to have a 'proper' technique.

 

[Prez]

This is such a good post from BN. I saw all of the above the same way. As for the 'chargedown' debacle at the end, the most disgraceful thing about it was the way the referee delayed signalling it was the last tackle until Clarke had picked the ball up and started moving forward. Even though the Saints players were all asking the referee for clarification he seemed to deliberately ignore them. It worked out okay in the end but I was going ballistic in the stands (until Lomax dropped the goal).
The referee's poor management of the PTB made it difficult to get any momentum, along with the skinny ten yards which closes down space, and since we do not have the pace in the backs to lie deeper in attack, the opposition defence close us down far too easily. (but this is a regular problem with our attack, one of many ATM I'm afraid.)

I, like you was still screaming at the ref as Jonny received the ball to pop it over. I can excuse human error in certain instances, however I'm at a loss to understand Moore's thought process re the non charge down. Did he not see the player racing towards the kicker? How did he think the ball was propelled backwards from the kicker? Didn't the rule used to be that if you were moving forwards towards a kicker and the ball hit you it was a charge down? I don't understand how, in any world Moore could not wipe the tackle count. I'd love to hear his explanation.

 

[djh1972]

I am sick of saying the same thing and it isn't just Moore and it isn't just against Saints (although we seem to get hammered more than others). If the PTB was speeded up the game would be far more exciting to watch as defences can't get organised as easily, it's the simplest and quickest way to make RL more watchable in this country...I'm absolutely convinced. I thought this was going to be the refereeing focus this year but it seems it's just an obsession with rubbish like markers not been square rather than the PTB being soverly slowed for 90% of the time. As for Jake Connor, I just think everyone dislikes him including the refs. I hope the MRP feel the same when they look at the slaps!

 

[clintsmate]

I, like you was still screaming at the ref as Jonny received the ball to pop it over. I can excuse human error in certain instances, however I'm at a loss to understand Moore's thought process re the non charge down. Did he not see the player racing towards the kicker? How did he think the ball was propelled backwards from the kicker? Didn't the rule used to be that if you were moving forwards towards a kicker and the ball hit you it was a charge down? I don't understand how, in any world Moore could not wipe the tackle count. I'd love to hear his explanation.

Exactly! If a player is running at the player who is about to kick, and as he begins his drop kick, jumps into the air what does Moore imagine the intent is? He must be trying to block the kick. I don't like to use the word 'cheat' but there aren't really any other explanations except for gross incompetence or gross stupidity. And when you look at the pressure relieving penalties he awarded that were questionable to say the least, as pointed out by BN, you can't help but question his motives for those decisions.
At least Kendall is clearly just completely inept.

 

[Belgian Saint]

I, like you was still screaming at the ref as Jonny received the ball to pop it over. I can excuse human error in certain instances, however I'm at a loss to understand Moore's thought process re the non charge down. Did he not see the player racing towards the kicker? How did he think the ball was propelled backwards from the kicker? Didn't the rule used to be that if you were moving forwards towards a kicker and the ball hit you it was a charge down? I don't understand how, in any world Moore could not wipe the tackle count. I'd love to hear his explanation.

It will be interesting to see if he gets stood down after such an obvious and possibly game changing error.

 

[STIDDY]

I am sick of saying the same thing and it isn't just Moore and it isn't just against Saints (although we seem to get hammered more than others). If the PTB was speeded up the game would be far more exciting to watch as defences can't get organised as easily, it's the simplest and quickest way to make RL more watchable in this country...I'm absolutely convinced. I thought this was going to be the refereeing focus this year but it seems it's just an obsession with rubbish like markers not been square rather than the PTB being soverly slowed for 90% of the time. As for Jake Connor, I just think everyone dislikes him including the refs. I hope the MRP feel the same when they look at the slaps!

It needs to be addressed when the ref shouts held there is still a lot going on and the players ignore the call, defenders are still messing about when the ball carrier is playing the ball. There have been a lot of incorrect PTB's and most of them is because the defenders are still in contact putting the ball carrier off balance.
We then have the entrapment of defenders locking their arms and legs in the tackle and claiming innocence. Refs are just not strict enough to enforce a quicker ruck, its ruining the game and unwatchable at times.

 

[brook]

It needs to be addressed when the ref shouts held there is still a lot going on and the players ignore the call, defenders are still messing about when the ball carrier is playing the ball. There have been a lot of incorrect PTB's and most of them is because the defenders are still in contact putting the ball carrier off balance.
We then have the entrapment of defenders locking their arms and legs in the tackle and claiming innocence. Refs are just not strict enough to enforce a quicker ruck, its ruining the game and unwatchable at times.

I agree,the ref shouts " held " and you still see players on the tackle,looking at the ref and waiting for him to shout "move",then instead of rolling off to the side they push the ball player down as they are getting up. They need to start penalising it and then the players will get the message. The game needs speeding up and fans of every club are saying the same.If it takes a lot of penalties to do it then so be it,the coaches and players will soon get the message if they are constantly giving up ground.

 

[Prez]

It will be interesting to see if he gets stood down after such an obvious and possibly game changing error.

Moore was certainly one of the better officials, until everyone including SKY started shouting it from the rooftops. It appears to have morphed him into Steve Ganson 2! The game appears secondary to his performance. I agree he dealt with Connor adeptly, but the he should, shouldn't he? The non charge down needs to be explained publicly so that coaches, players and fans know what exactly constitutes a charge down now, if it wasn't what we saw in that game.

 

[Ken McCabe]

Agreed. After seeing some early season improvements it seems that refs are more and more allowing slow ptbs. Saying that. I feel both sides were guilty and that Moore was equally lenient (of course it might appear to us Saints fans that Hudds were the more guilty of the two).

Watching the Aussie games the play the ball is quicker and the game is far more entertaining than ours. You rarely see three players piling on as that would leave the defence line short. The games we have here would be constant 6 again with their refs.

 

[Belgian Saint]

Moore was certainly one of the better officials, until everyone including SKY started shouting it from the rooftops. It appears to have morphed him into Steve Ganson 2! The game appears secondary to his performance. I agree he dealt with Connor adeptly, but the he should, shouldn't he? The non charge down needs to be explained publicly so that coaches, players and fans know what exactly constitutes a charge down now, if it wasn't what we saw in that game.

I agree about Moore. I think most of the referees Thaler, Moore even Kendall etc have all had a couple of years of being decent, I don't know whether they get blase about the game, fed up, or just in it for the money (which isn't much). From being decent they also all seem to go through a cycle of thinking that the game is about them and they are who we pay to see.

 

[clintsmate]

It needs to be addressed when the ref shouts held there is still a lot going on and the players ignore the call, defenders are still messing about when the ball carrier is playing the . There have been a lot of incorrect PTB's and most of them is because the defenders are still in contact putting the ball carrier off balance.
We then have the entrapment of defenders locking their arms and legs in the tackle and claiming innocence. Refs are just not strict enough to enforce a quicker ruck, its ruining the game and unwatchable at times.

It happens a lot and Cameron Smith of Leeds is one of the worst culprits. And he almost always holds one arm up in the air pretending he is being held in. As for the quicker ruck, as I think I have said before, Vella is the best at enforcing this and it is no surprise to me that he is an Australian referee.