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I actually find him more likeable than some on the other end of the political extreem like Corbyn & Abbott.
I actually had the displeasure of meeting Corbyn once at an event at Islington town hall. It was an event to celebrate the opening of new sporting facilities in the borough and his entire speech was nothing but a left wing rant (most of it aimed at Tony Blair) and nothing about what he was actually there to speak about. The other local MP Chris Smith was also there and have to say he spoke very eloquently and passionately about the borough, complete contrast to Corbyn.
 
I actually find him more likeable than some on the other end of the political extreem like Corbyn & Abbott.
I actually had the displeasure of meeting Corbyn once at an event at Islington town hall. It was an event to celebrate the opening of new sporting facilities in the borough and his entire speech was nothing but a left wing rant (most of it aimed at Tony Blair) and nothing about what he was actually there to speak about. The other local MP Chris Smith was also there and have to say he spoke very eloquently and passionately about the borough, complete contrast to Corbyn.



Corbyn was an abysmal leader - petty, divisive, vindictive, slow-witted, stubborn.

Such a tragedy for 'the left' that it was just his turn to be the token leftist leadership candidate when a groundswell of disaffection with the centre-right Bliarite consensus exploded. McDonnell would have been a far more pragmatic and capable leader.

And Abbott is just a thick-as-mince hypocrite.
 
I'll agree to a large extent, there.

Certain groups - essentially big business, banksters and the very wealthy - hold a corrupting level of control/influence.
You missed a big one off the list - The Unions.
Despite what previous Labour PM's said (and what Starmer currently says) everybody knows that Labour MP's just dance to the unions tune. At least some are openly honest about it like Rayner while many try to play it down.
 
You missed a big one off the list - The Unions.
Despite what previous Labour PM's said (and what Starmer currently says) everybody knows that Labour MP's just dance to the unions tune. At least some are openly honest about it like Rayner while many try to play it down.

If only!

Sadly, from my perspective, that's absolutely nonsense. I might vote Labour if they did!

The truth is that, like the Bliar government, this Labour Party will do next to cock-all to improve Union representation.

We'll still suffer with some of the weakest worker's rights in Europe.

And that will continue to be one of the majority reasons why there is perpetually growing wealth inequality.
 
If only!

Sadly, from my perspective, that's absolutely nonsense. I might vote Labour if they did!

The truth is that, like the Bliar government, this Labour Party will do next to cock-all to improve Union representation.

We'll still suffer with some of the weakest worker's rights in Europe.

And that will continue to be one of the majority reasons why there is perpetually growing wealth inequality.
Oh come on Brian you know as well as I do the unions call the tune. Their block votes pretty much decide who the leader & deputy leaders are and what policies get voted on end up in the manifesto. They exert as much influence over the labour party as the the elite and monied do over the Conservatives. That being said Billionaires exert just as much influence over labour policy these days. Outside of the unions Starmers 2 biggest supporters and donors are Dale Vince the green energy billionaire (hence Starmers UK green energy policy), and Martin Taylor the dodgy ex Barings banker who runs multiple overseas offshore investment companies.

Blair did just enough to keep them onside whilst still appealing to a wider electorate. Corbyn went full on union policies and look how the electorate reacted to him.
Starmer is trying to replicate Blair with keeping the unions sweet but he has the union pitbull Rayner as his deputy so they're happy enough and see her as a way of influencing policy once Labour get into No.10.

The UK electorate are generally speaking centre to centre right with their voting habits. Blair got in largely because the Tory government had made an absolute balls up of things by the end, mired in sleaze and in-fighting and it took them years to recover (as well as Blair adopting a very Tory stance on many policies). As soon as they started putting forward credible policies again and acting in a unified way the elctorate switched back to them. History is repeating itself again now with the Tories imploding over the last 4 years. People will vote Labour not because they want a left wing government or because of their policies or Starmer but because they just want the Tories out and a change. If the tories get their act together in the next 5 years then Starmer's stay in No.10 will be over and we'll be back with a Conservative Government again.

People like living in a Capitalist country with wealth creation. Sure people complain about inequality and talk about taxing the rich more, right up until they start making the money themselves and all of a sudden they adopt a Tory stance on keeping as much of the money you've earned as you can. They like sharing the wealth out just as long as they're not the ones sharing it (see above with Martin Taylor who lives in the UK but pays virtually no UK taxes because all his investment banking is done overseas outside of the reach of the UK taxman).
 
A few responses:

I maintain that the unions have far less influence than you claim these days. I'll point to Unite refusing to endorse the manifesto (and make a veiled threat about funding levels) due to Starmer watering down yet more pledges. This time it's the decision not to outlaw the exploitative 'fire and rehire' practice and Zero Hour Contracts, along with concerns over jobs in the oil & gas sectors. Labour signs off election manifesto but Unite refuses to endorse it

Corbyn got more votes in 2017 than Bliar did in 2001 & 2005 (in fact, the second most votes any Labour leader got since 1966).

Consistent opinion polling about individual issues shows strong support for what you'd consider 'left-of-centre' policies. Additionally, pick almost any election over the past few decades and you'll see that either left-of-centre or centrist (Labour, Green, SNP, LD, PC) receive more votes than the centre-right or right-wing parties. The left-of-centre vote is always split much more than the right-of-centre vote which, under FPTP, works so well for the Tories.

The levels of wealth inequality have been gradually rising since the early 80's (even through the Bliar government years). There are numerous ways to address this, like equalising Capital Gains Tax rates with Income Tax and scrapping separate allowances; imposing a wealth tax (on wealth over £10m); removing upper limits on National Insurance; removing loopholes in Inheritance Tax; imposing a tax on share buy-backs. This article goes into more detail, and shows how up to £50bn a year in extra government could be used to fund the rebuilding of public services and public infrastructure.
 
Corbyn got more votes in 2017 than Bliar did in 2001 & 2005 (in fact, the second most votes any Labour leader got since 1966).
Now compare like for like,
Corbyn's first election as leader in 2017 he polled approx 3/4M less votes than Blair did in his first election as leader.
Both then lost millions of votes when running 2nd time round except Blair maintained his share of the vote where as Corbyn's share nosedived. However voter turnout was massively down in Blair's 2nd election in 2001 where as the voter turnout remained fairly stable in Corbyn's 2nd.
 
Am I some remedial with a primative understanding of politics in thinking that voting either labour or conservative will make sod all difference to my life?
 
Am I some remedial with a primative understanding of politics in thinking that voting either labour or conservative will make sod all difference to my life?

A small difference.

But Labour have adopted most Tory economic policy.
 
Jeeze we moan about the state of politics in this country but is absolutely nothing compared to the car crash in the US.
What the hell do you do as an American voter when your only choice is between a narcissistic convicted criminal and a senile geriatric who forgets his own name unless its on a cue card in front of him and looks like he needs 24Hr nursing care probably needs adult nappies.
 
Jeeze we moan about the state of politics in this country but is absolutely nothing compared to the car crash in the US.
What the hell do you do as an American voter when your only choice is between a narcissistic convicted criminal and a senile geriatric who forgets his own name unless its on a cue card in front of him and looks like he needs 24Hr nursing care probably needs adult nappies.

It's madness

The Repugnicans want to implement their 'Project 2025', which reads like a mix of a fascist putsch and bringing Gilead to life (what a joyless bunch the militant evangelists are, yearning to impose their puritanical oppression of personal freedoms on everyone)

Then there's the Democrats, trying to be the grown-ups to maintain the old order (which is dictated by Wall Street) and ignoring opinion polls that all say Biden is an electoral liability because his cognitive function is well along the decline-curve.

If the orange shitbag is elected, the Democrats and Biden are hugely culpable.
 
It's madness

The Repugnicans want to implement their 'Project 2025', which reads like a mix of a fascist putsch and bringing Gilead to life (what a joyless bunch the militant evangelists are, yearning to impose their puritanical oppression of personal freedoms on everyone)

Then there's the Democrats, trying to be the grown-ups to maintain the old order (which is dictated by Wall Street) and ignoring opinion polls that all say Biden is an electoral liability because his cognitive function is well along the decline-curve.

If the orange shitbag is elected, the Democrats and Biden are hugely culpable.
I honestly don't know whats going to be worse, a whore loving criminal or a senile old turd who hates the UK
From a purely UK perspective we'd almost certainly get more cooperation and better outcomes if its Trump but most of the rest of the world would get f***ed over, but if its senile Joe we'll just get another 4 years of being shunned because his claimed Irish heritage means he despises everything British (even though the stupid old f***er couldn't even find Ireland on a map).

I honestly think the best outcome would be another outbreak of Covid in the States and both old fools toddle off to heavens gate and both parties put forward 2 new candidates before the election.
 
Well there we go the expected Labour landslide victory.

Probably the most interesting thing for me is that Labours vote share barely changed and their massive majority is almost purely down to people voting for anyone but the Tory candidate.
Big winners really were Reform despite only winning 4 seats (so far) they have ended up with over 1/2M more votes than the LibDems and 6 times more votes than the SNP got in terms of overall numbers.
The reality is the 4M+ votes that Reform got has cost the Tories the whole election

Locally I see Marie Rimmer, while easily re-elected actually saw her vote share drop by over 8.4%
It doesn't say much for what the people of St.Helens think about her when Nationally Labour won a landslide but her vote share fell a lot.
 
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Fair to say there’s a lot of Tellins people in both constituencies who probably historically voted Labour but have now swallowed the Farage snake oil. Whether they just fell for the rhetoric or whether he’s actually showed them their true political home, remains to be seen.
 
Fair to say there’s a lot of Tellins people in both constituencies who probably historically voted Labour but have now swallowed the Farage snake oil. Whether they just fell for the rhetoric or whether he’s actually showed them their true political home, remains to be seen.
I haven’t bothered voting this time. But enlighten me please. What snake oil is Farage flogging that every other party hasn’t in recent years?? Aren’t all politicians full of shit, fibs and broken promises??
 
I fear this Labour government won't change much, certainly won't address the underlying problems that society has - most of which stem from too great a proportion of the proceeds from the economic output of everyone squirrelling it's way into the coffers of a small minority of capital-owning super-rich.

We need a wealth tax combined with bringing Capital Gains Tax rates in line with income tax (and draconian laws to enforce tax compliance and close loopholes).

But I seriously don't see Labour doing this (Reeves, whose pronouncements clearly indicate she has morphed into a red-Tory, would certainly veto it)

We also need to bring immigration right down.
 
I haven’t bothered voting this time. But enlighten me please. What snake oil is Farage flogging that every other party hasn’t in recent years?? Aren’t all politicians full of shit, fibs and broken promises??
Indeed. Four weeks ago, he wasn’t even taking part. Then he decided he was and his party limited company has claimed 4m votes nationally including around 1 in 5 votes in our constituencies. So his particular blend of snake oil and his selling technique clearly strikes a chord with people.
 
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