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Harry Robertson

Players don't need three years to transition. They develop and improve in that time. They can only develop and improve if they're playing. You can't leave the kids in the reserves until they are 22/23 and then expect them to be good. They have to play, some will thrive and some will struggle. You give more time to those who thrive and protect those who struggle. You can't do either if you don't ever expose them. For a normal player 18 is the age they should start seeing first team action. If they're good they can be brought in consideration for places then. This idea that they need to be 23 and at their peak physically is nonsense.

If you're going to come back with the NRL as an example, it's different over there. It's harder to get picked up, it's harder in juniors and it's harder in reserve grade than it is over here, they take it more seriously as there are multiple players who have aspirations of playing NRL. Over here, everyone quits at 16-18 once they are dropped by their scholarship teams.

And your point about trophies, we're not winning any this year and we're unlikely to win any next year unless we make some very good signings and the ducks align perfectly. Now is the perfect time to be thinking about bringing the kids through.
In all but the most rare cases - they don't need six weeks, either. And you have no idea whether we will win a trophy this season.
 
And if the academy was that easy to get out of we wouldn't see players needing three years plus to transition. This idea that you can just toss kids in and they play as effectively as experienced first team players is crazy. Remember Jack Welsby dropping high balls every week and the fans getting after him? And that's JACK WELSBY. Universally regarded as one of the top 3 prospects coming out of academy football in his year. Jonny Lomax got trashed at the start of his career also. So which is it?
I'm not sure about 'every week', but I do remember him having a poor game, ironically against London away, and some fans calling for his head!

Edit...He wasn't the only player to have a poor game that day iirc.
 
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Despite my impatience, I’m coming round to this point of view. Play our strongest team. What is our strongest team at the moment?
It is a balancing act.

I guess you have to ask the question, if one player got a season ending injury in London who would you least want it to be?

For me...

1. Welsby - our best player and biggest attacking threat by a long way.

2. Lees - we are already short on props. He does both the most minutes and is our best player left standing.

3. Sione - just a great player where ever he plays.

After that Dodd and Makinson.

If we are going to shield players then these are the ones to wrap in cotton wool.
 
It is a balancing act.

I guess you have to ask the question, if one player got a season ending injury in London who would you least want it to be?

For me...

1. Welsby - our best player and biggest attacking threat by a long way.

2. Lees - we are already short on props. He does both the most minutes and is our best player left standing.

3. Sione - just a great player where ever he plays.

After that Dodd and Makinson.

If we are going to shield players then these are the ones to wrap in cotton wool.
Sione is probably the one who has put in an enormous amount of effort in every game. In saying that Superleague doesn't have that intensity anymore and is much slower compared to earlier years.

I wouldn't be resting anybody at the moment we've played around 15 games so far and the only brutal energy sapping game we,ve had was against the Catalans at their place and both teams were knackered the following week.
 
Sione is probably the one who has put in an enormous amount of effort in every game. In saying that Superleague doesn't have that intensity anymore and is much slower compared to earlier years.

I wouldn't be resting anybody at the moment we've played around 15 games so far and the only brutal energy sapping game we,ve had was against the Catalans at their place and both teams were knackered the following week.
The game must be slowing down when referees are now running about with beer guts.
 
Players don't need three years to transition. They develop and improve in that time. They can only develop and improve if they're playing. You can't leave the kids in the reserves until they are 22/23 and then expect them to be good. They have to play, some will thrive and some will struggle. You give more time to those who thrive and protect those who struggle. You can't do either if you don't ever expose them. For a normal player 18 is the age they should start seeing first team action. If they're good they can be brought in consideration for places then. This idea that they need to be 23 and at their peak physically is nonsense.

If you're going to come back with the NRL as an example, it's different over there. It's harder to get picked up, it's harder in juniors and it's harder in reserve grade than it is over here, they take it more seriously as there are multiple players who have aspirations of playing NRL. Over here, everyone quits at 16-18 once they are dropped by their scholarship teams.

And your point about trophies, we're not winning any this year and we're unlikely to win any next year unless we make some very good signings and the ducks align perfectly. Now is the perfect time to be thinking about bringing the kids through.
‘For a normal player 18 is when they should start playing first team’

What planet do you live on??
 
‘For a normal player 18 is when they should start playing first team’

What planet do you live on??
I thought you'd left after your strop the other day?

Yes, I stand by that. You'll have to dig out some stats if you want to prove me wrong, the average age may well turn out to be 19, but it's not like it's a ridiculous suggestion. Players should start getting exposed to the first team around that age if they're good enough. As Backrow said, that doesn't mean they are relied upon or picked regularly, but it's the age to start considering giving them a go if they're showing up well in the academy and reserves. Obviously some will be further along physically than other's, so it's not a blanket policy. There are plenty of exceptional players who debut at 17, but I'd say most debut before or around when they turn 19, with forwards maybe being older on average due to the nature of their work. Welsby was 17, Delaney 18, Stephens 18, Bennison 18.
 
I thought you'd left after your strop the other day?

Yes, I stand by that. You'll have to dig out some stats if you want to prove me wrong, the average age may well turn out to be 19, but it's not like it's a ridiculous suggestion. Players should start getting exposed to the first team around that age if they're good enough. As Backrow said, that doesn't mean they are relied upon or picked regularly, but it's the age to start considering giving them a go if they're showing up well in the academy and reserves. Obviously some will be further along physically than other's, so it's not a blanket policy. There are plenty of exceptional players who debut at 17, but I'd say most debut before or around when they turn 19, with forwards maybe being older on average due to the nature of their work. Welsby was 17, Delaney 18, Stephens 18, Bennison 18.
For the best yes, depending on injuries at the time and ability. But it’s all on personal player development and how they are. Take NRL for example, average age of debuts are 22… some develop earlier, others don’t. Take fuller for Dolphins, looks a gun and he’s 26 when he made his debut. 'Normal' players fit into that bracket. However it is not a general rule for ALL players. This golden generation will get their time. They’ll also be playing a lot. Youth development takes time. If you ain’t got patience for that, go support wire
 
For the best yes, depending on injuries at the time and ability. But it’s all on personal player development and how they are. Take NRL for example, average age of debuts are 22… some develop earlier, others don’t. Take fuller for Dolphins, looks a gun and he’s 26 when he made his debut. 'Normal' players fit into that bracket. However it is not a general rule for ALL players. This golden generation will get their time. They’ll also be playing a lot. Youth development takes time. If you ain’t got patience for that, go support wire
The NRL is completely different. Higher standards in juniors, higher standards in reserve grade. Over here when players don't get a pro contract through scholarship the vast majority quit. They don't in Australia, they largely continue. Reserve grade is full of players who are striving for NRL. Reserves here is a joke. If Fuller was English he'd be in the Dog and Dart telling everyone how he was good enough to make it.

Wellens is an inexperienced coach and he needs to think carefully on this. If we don't make any decent signings, as looks likely given we don't appear to be trying, the pressure on results will be even greater next year. Today was the perfect opportunity to have a look at one or two. His treatment of Vaughan today was bizarre. Royle? Davies? Bennison will no doubt come in now Tommy is out. All pointless.
 
Wellens is a good British coach but lacks the Aussie mentality of a mixture of strict but fair schoolteacher and never give in, he was like that as a player but isnt cut throat enough as coach with aging players you need to push those who are approaching the end of their careers and remind them of what it means to play for this unique and special club
 
Wellens is a good British coach but lacks the Aussie mentality of a mixture of strict but fair schoolteacher and never give in, he was like that as a player but isnt cut throat enough as coach with aging players you need to push those who are approaching the end of their careers and remind them of what it means to play for this unique and special club
I think there has been a shift in the quality of British Coach, which current Aussie Coach in Superleague is good enough for Saints. Peters from Hull KR doesnt fit that "strict schoolteacher" attribute. The likes of Peet and Rowley look calm and collective compared to an inexperienced Wellens and its probably more important that he has 2 good assistants at the side of him.
 
I think there has been a shift in the quality of British Coach, which current Aussie Coach in Superleague is good enough for Saints. Peters from Hull KR doesnt fit that "strict schoolteacher" attribute. The likes of Peet and Rowley look calm and collective compared to an inexperienced Wellens and its probably more important that he has 2 good assistants at the side of him.
Fair points. I think we are actually playing a lot better now from the Warrington low point and that must be due to Wellens. We are justifiably top of the league at least until Wigan play their game in hand. We are in the second half of the season with a lot of injuries but most of them will be recovered by the end of the season playoffs. It could be a lot worse
 
Fair points. I think we are actually playing a lot better now from the Warrington low point and that must be due to Wellens. We are justifiably top of the league at least until Wigan play their game in hand. We are in the second half of the season with a lot of injuries but most of them will be recovered by the end of the season playoffs. It could be a lot worse
The return of Paasi and the emergence of Stephens has pretty much transformed our pack within a few short weeks. Instead of smaller guys playing prop and getting beaten up we are suddenly bending the line and giving the likes of Clark, Dodd and Mbye a lot more room in which to operate. If we can get any kind of tune out of Walmsley when he returns that pack gives us the opportunity to be throwing big lads at the opposition for the full eighty minutes instead of having forty good ones and then very little on the back end.
 
The return of Paasi and the emergence of Stephens has pretty much transformed our pack within a few short weeks. Instead of smaller guys playing prop and getting beaten up we are suddenly bending the line and giving the likes of Clark, Dodd and Mbye a lot more room in which to operate. If we can get any kind of tune out of Walmsley when he returns that pack gives us the opportunity to be throwing big lads at the opposition for the full eighty minutes instead of having forty good ones and then very little on the back end.


And keep the props rotated better.

Lees, Mata'utia, Walmsley, Paasi, Delaney & Stephens... that's just obscene!

If each plays 2/3 games out of every 4, it reduces the risk of both burn-out and further injury.
 
The return of Paasi and the emergence of Stephens has pretty much transformed our pack within a few short weeks. Instead of smaller guys playing prop and getting beaten up we are suddenly bending the line and giving the likes of Clark, Dodd and Mbye a lot more room in which to operate. If we can get any kind of tune out of Walmsley when he returns that pack gives us the opportunity to be throwing big lads at the opposition for the full eighty minutes instead of having forty good ones and then very little on the back end.
I agree JM the future of the pack, including for this season is looking good and props win pots! Stephens is a monster! Very exciting thinking about him linking with Bell and Clarke through the middle for example.
 
I agree JM the future of the pack, including for this season is looking good and props win pots! Stephens is a monster! Very exciting thinking about him linking with Bell and Clarke through the middle for example.
A link with Bell nearly came off in the last game. The lad seems to have a rugby brain and skills as well as size and power.
 
A link with Bell nearly came off in the last game. The lad seems to have a rugby brain and skills as well as size and power.
Public school kid. They're just smarter than the great comprehensive unwashed ... ;) :D
 
He was unplayable against Bradford today in a 40 minute stint. Far too good for that level at the moment. I have no doubts he’ll be our 1 or 6 by 2026
 
He was unplayable against Bradford today in a 40 minute stint. Far too good for that level at the moment. I have no doubts he’ll be our 1 or 6 by 2026
I know it’s easy to overhype youngsters but I think 1. Welsby 6. Robertson 7. Whitby has the potential to eclipse even 1. Wellens 6. Pryce 7. Long.

They just have to start getting game time at the very top.
 
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