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Thread: Disciplinary 2023

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Factors such as the appeal? And them being publicly embarassed and no doubt dressed down by their colleagues?

    I'm fine with every possible ban being found for our players, it's technically a foul, provided the same is done for all the other clubs. People moan on here like we're the rugby league version of the Crazy Gang Wimbledon or pre-Premier League Millwall. We've not been anything like as aggressive with our contact or line speed this season and literally every possible thing has not only been picked up, but banned. We're not a dirty team, we're not any different to any of the teams in SL. Warrington's line speed and aggression is superior to ours, so is Huddersfields, so is Leeds the weeks they bother. No bans every week there and the same things are happening in their games. They need to match the thoroughness across every game for every club for it to be fair.

    On this incident, yes it's technically a penalty. The ref saw it and thought nothing of it, the two touch judges saw it and thought nothing of it and the opposition didn't appeal and it was on TV so the same trial by TV that caught us in the Leeds game would have applied if they thought it was worthy. That says it all to me. You watch any of the televised games and you'll see two or three worst incidents than that one easily. There were multiple in the Cas game and clear abuse of the referee picked up on the televised footage. If we were in that game we'd be sat on three or four bans right now. Most of them don't even get picked up, it's like they've got a quota they've got to meet per week
    This.

    The self-flagellation on here at times is bizarre.

    If our players deserve sin-bins and/or bans for such offences, then it's hardly too much to ask that players of other teams are similarly treated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Factors such as the appeal? And them being publicly embarassed and no doubt dressed down by their colleagues?

    I'm fine with every possible ban being found for our players, it's technically a foul, provided the same is done for all the other clubs. People moan on here like we're the rugby league version of the Crazy Gang Wimbledon or pre-Premier League Millwall. We've not been anything like as aggressive with our contact or line speed this season and literally every possible thing has not only been picked up, but banned. We're not a dirty team, we're not any different to any of the teams in SL. Warrington's line speed and aggression is superior to ours, so is Huddersfields, so is Leeds the weeks they bother. No bans every week there and the same things are happening in their games. They need to match the thoroughness across every game for every club for it to be fair.

    On this incident, yes it's technically a penalty. The ref saw it and thought nothing of it, the two touch judges saw it and thought nothing of it and the opposition didn't appeal and it was on TV so the same trial by TV that caught us in the Leeds game would have applied if they thought it was worthy. That says it all to me. You watch any of the televised games and you'll see two or three worst incidents than that one easily. There were multiple in the Cas game and clear abuse of the referee picked up on the televised footage. If we were in that game we'd be sat on three or four bans right now. Most of them don't even get picked up, it's like they've got a quota they've got to meet per week
    No, not tin foil hat wearing ideologies like that but things like player’s previous records and how incidents are seen by different referees during games. If there is such an agenda against the club it makes for some (even more) bizarre thought processes when you consider we’ve won five finals on the spin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thommo View Post
    I'm sorry Saddened but I think you are wrong on this one. It was stupid unnecessary and late. He has zero tackling technique other than this front on thing and needs to pack the tough guy act and realise he is ban waiting to happen. I honestly can't think of the last standout game he had. Needs a big change in mindset.
    Are you even a Saints fan? Knowles is our best player. We do need to be squeeky clean on the late hits, I agree, but it's instinctive and other teams do it and it's never an issue for them as they don't get the same treatment for it we do. There were three in the Leeds v Cas game for example and there was one on Daryl Clark in the highlights of the Warrington game, no bans there either.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    I don’t really care enough but do other clubs have players with the discipline history of Matautia, Knowles and Sironen?
    This season we are seeing opposition players going down like a "sack of spuds" when those three are in collision, I think Sironen has cleaned up his act this seaason and was very unlucky to get that 1 match ban recently, it was a 50:50 call but we dont get those in any form this season.

    Matty Lees will be the next player to get his card marked shortly you can see it coming.

    Of the three Matautia necer seems to learn and can't see him not playing on the edge but he's not with us next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    Is 24 not the number we’ve won? Either way, the Sky commentary team mentioned we were the most penalised side during the game and having watched us, that sounded correct at the time.
    It's penalties conceded. We were third highest last year, third lowest so far this year but we've played one less game than all bar Huddersfield.

    Biggest issue for us is previous records for the usual suspects counts against them so even with the more lenient punishments this year Knowles, Sione, Siro etc will still get bans when others get fines.

    Easiest way to sort it is to stop doing stupid things. Knowles on Friday was a good example of something that, whilst not particularly serious, was totally unnecessary.

    The only ban we've had which wasn't made worse as a result of previous record was Hurrell's and I'm not sure how anyone can complain about that one.

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    It's as I've said previously, it's the inconsistency. The only consistent is that a Saints player will get a ban each week. Watching all the televised games it's impossible not to see far worse fouls going unpunished by other teams every week. I dread the start of the week as even when one of our players steps marginally over the line (and it's missed by on and off field officials), you can bet your life that a ban will be forthcoming, which doesn't seem to happen to other sides with the same regularity. The challenge upon Benison with the knee/boot as he was scoring would be a penalty try all day if we'd defended like that (and the grounding was checked several times by Tom Grant the VR, so no excuse for missing the reckless late challenge). Why wasn't one awarded? You can see the lad's ribs were hurt by his reaction. Getting sick and tired of the regularity our lads are being pinged whilst others are getting away scot free. It's no good continually moaning about our discipline when others get away with worse every week. It's like trying to box with one hand behind your back!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    No, not tin foil hat wearing ideologies like that but things like player’s previous records and how incidents are seen by different referees during games. If there is such an agenda against the club it makes for some (even more) bizarre thought processes when you consider we’ve won five finals on the spin.
    The Knowles appeal only happened after the semi final last year, so not sure how they'd stop us winning trophies in prior years? Maybe we need to do an analysis of the televised games and highlight every single penalisable contact made? You'd be amazed how many would fit into the category of being bannable. There were at least five in the Cas game for example and you can see two or three in the try highlights they've posted this week alone, let alone watching the full 80 minutes of the games.

    I'm not on a big conspiracy hunt either, I just think they're being a bit vindictive because we showed them up with the Knowles appeal. They got hammered in the press and on social media and no doubt to their faces after that. So they're tipping to the ban side of the fence to give us a bit back for that. It's hardly dowsing rods, UFOs and flat earth coverups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    It's as I've said previously, it's the inconsistency. The only consistent is that a Saints player will get a ban each week. Watching all the televised games it's impossible not to see far worse fouls going unpunished by other teams every week. I dread the start of the week as even when one of our players steps marginally over the line (and it's missed by on and off field officials), you can bet your life that a ban will be forthcoming, which doesn't seem to happen to other sides with the same regularity. The challenge upon Benison with the knee/boot as he was scoring would be a penalty try all day if we'd defended like that (and the grounding was checked several times by Tom Grant the VR, so no excuse for missing the reckless late challenge). Why wasn't one awarded? You can see the lad's ribs were hurt by his reaction. Getting sick and tired of the regularity our lads are being pinged whilst others are getting away scot free. It's no good continually moaning about our discipline when others get away with worse every week. It's like trying to box with one hand behind your back!
    On the eight point try thing, the outlier was the two given in one game. They weren't given before that or since so aside from that one game they've been pretty consistent.

    Late hits seem to be our most common bans, but I can't think of any occasions so far this year where we've been on the receiving end of a late hit. Lomax has copped quite a few the last few years but neither him nor Dodd have taking the ball to the line with delayed passes much this year.

    As mentioned in my previous post too you also have to take into account previous record. Bans are never going to be consistent when ours are always being committed by the same people.

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    We can debate this until the cows come home about was it a ban or a fine etc. my observation on Knowles is many of his tackles are borderline. He quite often uses his shoulder and makes a token gesture of looking like he’s wrapping an arm around a player. Lees is another one IMO. Both are always looking for a highlight big hit and lead with a shoulder. I’m as frustrated by these sometimes weird banning decisions but both these players need to sort themselves out. Wellens should be making sure they get the message by now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    On the eight point try thing, the outlier was the two given in one game. They weren't given before that or since so aside from that one game they've been pretty consistent.

    Late hits seem to be our most common bans, but I can't think of any occasions so far this year where we've been on the receiving end of a late hit. Lomax has copped quite a few the last few years but neither him nor Dodd have taking the ball to the line with delayed passes much this year.

    As mentioned in my previous post too you also have to take into account previous record. Bans are never going to be consistent when ours are always being committed by the same people.
    Wire were awarded two eight point tries in one game and a week later weren't Salford awarded an eight point try against Hull FC? So unfortunately these things are no longer as rare as hen's teeth (unless you're Saints, of course!). The Cas Leeds game was full of direct contacts to the head and late shots, I haven't checked the disciplinary site, so can't say if anyone has been banned as a result of any of the incidents, I suspect not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    Wire were awarded two eight point tries in one game and a week later weren't Salford awarded an eight point try against Hull FC? So unfortunately these things are no longer as rare as hen's teeth (unless you're Saints, of course!). The Cas Leeds game was full of direct contacts to the head and late shots, I haven't checked the disciplinary site, so can't say if anyone has been banned as a result of any of the incidents, I suspect not.
    You suspect wrong. Bentley got a ban, Westerman a fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    On the eight point try thing, the outlier was the two given in one game. They weren't given before that or since so aside from that one game they've been pretty consistent.

    Late hits seem to be our most common bans, but I can't think of any occasions so far this year where we've been on the receiving end of a late hit. Lomax has copped quite a few the last few years but neither him nor Dodd have taking the ball to the line with delayed passes much this year.

    As mentioned in my previous post too you also have to take into account previous record. Bans are never going to be consistent when ours are always being committed by the same people.
    I'd have agreed last year, but there's been I think 4 or 5 so far this year and some for the exact same challenge. There's precedent that hasn't been continued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackrowSaint View Post
    I'd have agreed last year, but there's been I think 4 or 5 so far this year and some for the exact same challenge. There's precedent that hasn't been continued.
    Warrington got another 8 point try this week.

    Given the Disciplinary have ruled; 1. Walters absolutely was a shoulder charge (graded B so no ban obviously) 2. Lees wasnt high (so no ban, and presumably not even a penalty let alone card) and 3. Litten led with the knees (again, graded the only thing we can draw for certain is we have been shafted by the refs on the field as much as the disciplinary off it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Private Pyle View Post
    You suspect wrong. Bentley got a ban, Westerman a fine.
    No worries (it was only a suspicion, not a statement of fact), just as you were wrong in your assertion in a previous post regarding the Warrington eight point tries being the only two thus far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Are you even a Saints fan? Knowles is our best player. We do need to be squeeky clean on the late hits, I agree, but it's instinctive and other teams do it and it's never an issue for them as they don't get the same treatment for it we do. There were three in the Leeds v Cas game for example and there was one on Daryl Clark in the highlights of the Warrington game, no bans there either.
    Only for 45 yrs..and i don't give a two bob toss about other teams and i wouldn't waste my time on here if I wasn't. I say what I see and to me Knowles hasn't been at the races this season. He's rejoicing in his enforcer tag and is constantly overstepping. He needs to speak to Scully about being a hard but savvy LF.

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    I think the best way out of this situation is to actually tackle the players properly if we're going to pressure the passer/kicker. It's a tactic a lot of sides do and whilst they can get away with it, we can't. So if we just wrap the arms if we're going to make contact, then we're far less likely to be facing a ban. The other option for Wellens is to stop pressure on the kicker and passer, which is a good way to avoid bans, but would probably be another factor in our underperformance. Another approach is Wellens continuing to nag them in the press by calling them out every time we get a dodgy ban, but I don't think that has much road or it'll cause it's own issues with responses to the moaning coming from the committee in charges rather than replies to his emails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    Warrington got another 8 point try this week.
    There was a quote on the radio the other night about that. Warrington have had more 8 point tries in a month than Swinton have had in 37 years (Or something like that, might have been Rochdale). 8 point tries are another massive annoyance this year. Either give them all (If it's a penalisable challenge) or don't give them, but be consistent. The previous interpretation was they were never given unless it was horrendous, i.e the challenge on Tomkins at Odsal (?) where he was knocked out. No one minded that, you very often saw teams square up to each other as they had a dig at the try scorer. I don't remember anyone claiming there should have been one over the years either. To bring them back unannounced in the Salford game was just bizarre.

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    On Friday Matty Lees dropped the ball following a challenge by Savelio. Savelio appeared to led with the shoulder and there didn't look like that there was an attempt to wrap with the arms. Is this now permitted, as it didn't make the MRP minutes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by banburysaint View Post
    On Friday Matty Lees dropped the ball following a challenge by Savelio. Savelio appeared to led with the shoulder and there didn't look like that there was an attempt to wrap with the arms. Is this now permitted, as it didn't make the MRP minutes?

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    Was as clear a shoulder charge as Walters' the other week in my opinion. Savelio never had any intent on wrapping the arm.

    As for Knowles, I thought it could go either way, didn't think it was overly bad in fairness. However, good to see Saints' season ticket at the RFL disciplinary has been renewed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by banburysaint View Post
    On Friday Matty Lees dropped the ball following a challenge by Savelio. Savelio appeared to led with the shoulder and there didn't look like that there was an attempt to wrap with the arms. Is this now permitted, as it didn't make the MRP minutes?

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    The houlier than thou lot on here would have cancelled their season tickets if one of our back rowers did that. Bizarre it was missed again, certainly unlikely to have been if Sironen or Mata'utia did it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    The houlier than thou lot on here would have cancelled their season tickets if one of our back rowers did that. Bizarre it was missed again, certainly unlikely to have been if Sironen or Mata'utia did it.

    Not sure who or what you mean by that cryptic remark...but if you mean me then you couldn't be more wrong. Just because I have the temerity to disagree with you about Knowles doesn't mean I'm holier than anyone. Pretty childish remark and not like you...you are normally a good and on the money read in your various forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thommo View Post
    Not sure who or what you mean by that cryptic remark...but if you mean me then you couldn't be more wrong. Just because I have the temerity to disagree with you about Knowles doesn't mean I'm holier than anyone. Pretty childish remark and not like you...you are normally a good and on the money read in your various forums.
    It's not at anyone in particular. It's been a frustrating day reading people make out we're a horrendously indisciplined side. We genuinely get away with nothing at the moment.

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    We've appealed the ban. It's hard to see what the RFL can do here. They were humiliated at the end of last season and they will, naturally, want to avoid that happening again. So it's pretty inevitable that they will uphold or extend the ban. They pretty much have to because the fall out and reputational damage would be severe. Makes you wonder what we're appealing with. If it's angles from the minor incident itself it's doubtful it'll be enough. Or is it an 8 minute compilation video of similar tackles that weren't charged or banned?

    They should stream the disciplinary meetings I feel. That's the only way for true transparency and consistency to come through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    We've appealed the ban. It's hard to see what the RFL can do here. They were humiliated at the end of last season and they will, naturally, want to avoid that happening again. So it's pretty inevitable that they will uphold or extend the ban. They pretty much have to because the fall out and reputational damage would be severe. Makes you wonder what we're appealing with. If it's angles from the minor incident itself it's doubtful it'll be enough. Or is it an 8 minute compilation video of similar tackles that weren't charged or banned?

    They should stream the disciplinary meetings I feel. That's the only way for true transparency and consistency to come through.
    It'll be precedent to downgrade the challenge to a Grade A and a fine I'd imagine. We can either challenge the guilty/not guilty or the severity of the grading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackrowSaint View Post
    It'll be precedent to downgrade the challenge to a Grade A and a fine I'd imagine. We can either challenge the guilty/not guilty or the severity of the grading.
    Yeah, that's what I was getting at with the poorly worded bit about tackles that weren't charged or banned.

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