2024 Squad and Depth

[Blobbynator]

As its being discussed a bit in the rumours thread following the announcement of the five youngsters signing full time deals, I thought I'd create a seperate thread to talk about the 2024 squad and squad depth for next year. I've listed the squad below by primary positions and in brackets highlighted the other positions those players can cover:

Full Back
Jack Welsby (Centre, Stand Off, Scrum Half, Loose Forward)

Wing
Tommy Makinson (Full Back, Centre), Jon Bennison (Full Back), Tee Ritson

Centre
Mark Percival (Wing), Konrad Hurrell, Ben Davies (2nd row), Jon Vaughan (2nd row), Dayon Sambou (wing)

Stand Off
Jonny Lomax (Full back, Scrum Half), Ben Lane (wing)

Scrum Half
Lewis Dodd, Will Roberts

Prop
Alex Walmsley, Matty Lees, Agnatius Paasi (injured), Sione Matautia (2nd row, Loose Forward, Centre), George Delaney, Jake Wingfield (Loose Forward, hooker, 2nd row), Noah Stephens, Mckenzie Buckley

Hooker
Daryl Clark, Moses Mbye (Full Back, Stand Off, Scrum Half), Jake Burns

2nd row
Joe Batchelor (Centre, Loose Forward), Curtis Sironen (Prop, Loose Foward), Matt Whitley (Centre, Loose Forward), Sam Royle

Loose Forward
Morgan Knowles (Prop, 2nd row, hooker), James Bell (2nd row), Leon Cowen (prop)

[magic superbeetle]

First Choice;

Welsby
Makinson Percival Hurrell Ritson
Lomax Dodd
Knowles Clark Lees
Sironen Batchelor
Bell

Mbye Wingfield Walmsley Delaney

Reserves;

Bennison
(Dagnall) Sambou Vaughan (Lane)
(Robertson) Roberts
Paasi Burns Stephans
Whitley Royle
Mata'utia

(Nolan) Davies Cowen (Peposhi)

Those in brackets are borrowed from the reserves or academy.

Despite the lack of recruitment, still a very strong squad overall, but just missing some umph. With Paasi out to ~June we seem to be lacking depth at prop with essentially either players out of position or kids after the first 4, and wing still seems really weak. Centre depends on which Hurrell comes back; the one that started the season or the one who ended it.

Still a lot of question marks.

[STIDDY]

I would imagine injuries and suspensions will define our season next year. The key positions to improve on 2023 probably Ritson, Dodd and Lomax as the pack is still decent and should hold their own.

Also like to see some rotation with a couple of consecutive games with Welsby playing half back to rest up Lomax and for Bennison to get some time at full back, we can't flog Lomax playing every game next year. Also Mybe another option to play in the halves when Burns gets a bench spot.

[CaseyJ]

I would imagine injuries and suspensions will define our season next year. The key positions to improve on 2023 probably Ritson, Dodd and Lomax as the pack is still decent and should hold their own.

Also like to see some rotation with a couple of consecutive games with Welsby playing half back to rest up Lomax and for Bennison to get some time at full back, we can't flog Lomax playing every game next year. Also Mybe another option to play in the halves when Burns gets a bench spot.

I think this is important whether we add to the squad or not. I really hope it's something Wello takes on board as I feel it could end up biting us on the backside later in the season.

[Brian Nazareth]

I think this is important whether we add to the squad or not. I really hope it's something Wello takes on board as I feel it could end up biting us on the backside later in the season.

Our players looked gassed throughout the season.

I think Wellens felt, especially after the early losses to Leeds & Leigh (both robbed by terrible ref decisions, and with post-game suspensions) and how teams were going all-out when they played us (to knock the 4-times SL and World Champs off their perch) that he couldn't afford to rest players.

That just compounded the problem, meaning we were running on vapours come the play-offs.

A rookie mistake.

[saint-spoiler]

First Choice;

Welsby
Makinson Percival Hurrell Ritson
Lomax Dodd
Knowles Clark Lees
Sironen Batchelor
Bell

Mbye Wingfield Walmsley Delaney

Reserves;

Bennison
(Dagnall) Sambou Vaughan (Lane)
(Robertson) Roberts
Paasi Burns Stephans
Whitley Royle
Mata'utia

(Nolan) Davies Cowen (Peposhi)

Those in brackets are borrowed from the reserves or academy.

Despite the lack of recruitment, still a very strong squad overall, but just missing some umph. With Paasi out to ~June we seem to be lacking depth at prop with essentially either players out of position or kids after the first 4, and wing still seems really weak. Centre depends on which Hurrell comes back; the one that started the season or the one who ended it.

Still a lot of question marks.

There’s no way on this earth Mata’utia won’t be in the first choice 17

Would also like to see Hurrell & Ritson on the right & Percival & Makinson on the left personally

[philthompson]

There’s no way on this earth Mata’utia won’t be in the first choice 17

Would also like to see Hurrell & Ritson on the right & Percival & Makinson on the left personally

And Whitley

[Belgian Saint]

First Choice;

Welsby
Makinson Percival Hurrell Ritson
Lomax Dodd
Knowles Clark Lees
Sironen Batchelor
Bell

Mbye Wingfield Walmsley Delaney

Reserves;

Bennison
(Dagnall) Sambou Vaughan (Lane)
(Robertson) Roberts
Paasi Burns Stephans
Whitley Royle
Mata'utia

(Nolan) Davies Cowen (Peposhi)

Those in brackets are borrowed from the reserves or academy.

Despite the lack of recruitment, still a very strong squad overall, but just missing some umph. With Paasi out to ~June we seem to be lacking depth at prop with essentially either players out of position or kids after the first 4, and wing still seems really weak. Centre depends on which Hurrell comes back; the one that started the season or the one who ended it.

Still a lot of question marks.

If we could keep the first choice on the field each week we would be fine. We assume Percy will miss a few and Hurrell can be hit and miss. I think we are still weak in the 3/4s. Ritson has hopefully improved after a first year and a full pre season.
I think we can get away with what we have in the forwards, especially if Paasi returns to full fitness. But we are only an injury or suspension away from seriously weakening the 3/4s.

[Harry Pinners teeth]

Our players looked gassed throughout the season.

I think Wellens felt, especially after the early losses to Leeds & Leigh (both robbed by terrible ref decisions, and with post-game suspensions) and how teams were going all-out when they played us (to knock the 4-times SL and World Champs off their perch) that he couldn't afford to rest players.

That just compounded the problem, meaning we were running on vapours come the play-offs.

A rookie mistake.

Absolutely this... Coaches of the top clubs are so under pressure to deliver results. There's no margin for error.

[CaseyJ]

Our players looked gassed throughout the season.

I think Wellens felt, especially after the early losses to Leeds & Leigh (both robbed by terrible ref decisions, and with post-game suspensions) and how teams were going all-out when they played us (to knock the 4-times SL and World Champs off their perch) that he couldn't afford to rest players.

That just compounded the problem, meaning we were running on vapours come the play-offs.

A rookie mistake.

Yeah, I agree with that and I understand where he was coming from. As you say, hopefully it's a rookie mistake and it's been learned from.

[Blobbynator]

I do think Saints will be targeting a much better start in 2024. I imagine that will be a focus and will be talked about in the pre season meetings. Ultimately the poor start cost us top 2 and a home semi final, which is pretty critical.

[magic superbeetle]

And Whitley

Whitleys problem is where does he get into the 17 - same with Mata'utia.

He isn't going to be in front of Sironen or Batchelor (at least initially). Both are 80 minute players, so having another edge player on the bench just confuses things. I could see Mata'utia ahead of Wingfield to have a stint at 13, but given hes still learning how to play as a middle I am not sure thats how I would start.

[saint-spoiler]

And Whitley

I don’t see a place for Whitley in the first choice 17 to be honest, it’s rare we have our first 17 out though to be fair

[Brian Nazareth]

I expect to see Whitley filling in at centre this coming season.

[wirefox]

I expect to see Whitley filling in a centre this coming season.

I would say the same.

[CaseyJ]

I'm getting the feeling Whitley is there to cover the inevitable injuries in the centres and the usual backrow suspensions with Davies filling in there after.

I don't see Matautia as anything other than SR or Prop, I don't think we need him playing LF in any case with Knowles/Bell/Wingfield better options.

[magic superbeetle]

I expect to see Whitley filling in at centre this coming season.

He has only played 16 games in his career at centre, and would be behind Hurrell and Davies as a centre, and Vaughan and Sambou will be looking for game time. Unless Hurrell is done at the club (in which case ship him off to London) I cant really see why we would look anywhere else for an experienced centre

[Blobbynator]

Whitley will play plenty of games and I reckon he'll soon become a starter in our team. He's a quality player.

Matautia will also definitely be in the 17 when he's fit. He'll be prop rotation but his versatility to cover back row and centre makes him a great asset.

[paulscnthorpe]

I don't think there's ever a point where we have all of our second rowers or or centres, so first choice is almost moot. Sironen played SL 13 games this year, Batchelor 14, Matautia 18. Whitley on the other hand played 22

I think Sione will almost exclusively play prop or take over Louie's role.

Back row will be two from Sironen / Whiteley / Batchelor, I don't think there's much between them to be honest, but it means we don't have to flog them for 80 minutes each week

[Saint Toppy]

First Choice;

Welsby
Makinson Percival Hurrell Ritson
Lomax Dodd
Knowles Clark Lees
Sironen Batchelor
Bell

Mbye Wingfield Walmsley Delaney

Reserves;

Bennison
(Dagnall) Sambou Vaughan (Lane)
(Robertson) Roberts
Paasi Burns Stephans
Whitley Royle
Mata'utia

(Nolan) Davies Cowen (Peposhi)

Those in brackets are borrowed from the reserves or academy.

Despite the lack of recruitment, still a very strong squad overall, but just missing some umph. With Paasi out to ~June we seem to be lacking depth at prop with essentially either players out of position or kids after the first 4, and wing still seems really weak. Centre depends on which Hurrell comes back; the one that started the season or the one who ended it.

Still a lot of question marks.

Knowles is never going to start at prop ahead of Walmsley and likewise Knowlses will always get picked as a starter at 13 ahead of Bell. The only question really is who starts on the left wing Bennison or Ritson, the rest of the starting 13 is pretty much nailed on;
Welsby
Makinson, Hurrell, Percival, Bennison/Ritson
Lomax, Dodd
Walmsley, Clarke, Lees
Sironen, Batchelor
Knowles

The bench spots are anyones guess,
Mata'utia is probably all but guaranteed one of the spots given Wello's comments about him moving to a middle (taking over LMS role).
When he's fit again Paasi will be guaranteed a spot but someone now has half a season to claim a bench spot
You'd think Bell will get a spot given his impressive 2023 season

I think that just leaves the 4th bench spot very much up for grabs. The 4 main contenders would probably be Mbye, Whitley, Wingfield & Delaney

[magic superbeetle]

Knowles is never going to start at prop ahead of Walmsley and likewise Knowlses will always get picked as a starter at 13 ahead of Bell. The only question really is who starts on the left wing Bennison or Ritson, the rest of the starting 13 is pretty much nailed on;
Welsby
Makinson, Hurrell, Percival, Bennison/Ritson
Lomax, Dodd
Walmsley, Clarke, Lees
Sironen, Batchelor
Knowles

The bench spots are anyones guess,
Mata'utia is probably all but guaranteed one of the spots given Wello's comments about him moving to a middle (taking over LMS role).
When he's fit again Paasi will be guaranteed a spot but someone now has half a season to claim a bench spot
You'd think Bell will get a spot given his impressive 2023 season

I think that just leaves the 4th bench spot very much up for grabs. The 4 main contenders would probably be Mbye, Whitley, Wingfield & Delaney

Whether its likely or not I won't really comment on. But Knowles and Lees starting at prop, with Walmsley and Delaney/ Mata'utia/ Paasi rotating, and Bell starting at lock, with Wingfield/ Mata'utia rotating is, in my opinion, the strongest pack option we have.

Walmsley is getting older, we need to stop depending on him as a 60 minute prop. Having him come off the bench for impact would be huge still and with Paasi out we dont have an impact forward. Knowles and Lees set the defensive standard of the team and are both excellent at asserting dominance from minute 1, and Bell at lock is better placed to take advantage of that.

[Pasty]

As its being discussed a bit in the rumours thread following the announcement of the five youngsters signing full time deals, I thought I'd create a seperate thread to talk about the 2024 squad and squad depth for next year. I've listed the squad below by primary positions and in brackets highlighted the other positions those players can cover:

Full Back
Jack Welsby (Centre, Stand Off, Scrum Half, Loose Forward)

Wing
Tommy Makinson (Full Back, Centre), Jon Bennison (Full Back), Tee Ritson

Centre
Mark Percival (Wing), Konrad Hurrell, Ben Davies (2nd row), Jon Vaughan (2nd row), Dayon Sambou (wing)

Stand Off
Jonny Lomax (Full back, Scrum Half), Ben Lane (wing)

Scrum Half
Lewis Dodd, Will Roberts

Prop
Alex Walmsley, Matty Lees, Agnatius Paasi (injured), Sione Matautia (2nd row, Loose Forward, Centre), George Delaney, Jake Wingfield (Loose Forward, hooker, 2nd row), Noah Stephens, Mckenzie Buckley

Hooker
Daryl Clark, Moses Mbye (Full Back, Stand Off, Scrum Half), Jake Burns

2nd row
Joe Batchelor (Centre, Loose Forward), Curtis Sironen (Prop, Loose Foward), Matt Whitley (Centre, Loose Forward), Sam Royle

Loose Forward
Morgan Knowles (Prop, 2nd row, hooker), James Bell (2nd row), Leon Cowen (prop)

That looks ok to me, though I doubt it’ll be one of the favourites to win anything, but will be in contention I expect. The crucial issue is whether Ritson and any of the people coming up through the ranks can actually add anything to the first choice 21 this year, which seems highly unlikely, but you never know.

I assume they’ve all been added so that they can train with the first team but will get very little game time. If I recall correctly, people said of Alex Murphy and the like: if you’re good enough, you’re old enough, but it’s a different game now. However, Delaney came in and added to the first choice 17. We really need one of the backs to do that and my hope is on Vaughn!

[Scouse Don]

Suspect Whitley will play most of his games at centre

[Johnathon Doe]

That looks ok to me, though I doubt it’ll be one of the favourites to win anything, but will be in contention I expect. The crucial issue is whether Ritson and any of the people coming up through the ranks can actually add anything to the first choice 21 this year, which seems highly unlikely, but you never know.

I assume they’ve all been added so that they can train with the first team but will get very little game time. If I recall correctly, people said of Alex Murphy and the like: if you’re good enough, you’re old enough, but it’s a different game now. However, Delaney came in and added to the first choice 17. We really need one of the backs to do that and my hope is on Vaughn!

Ritson improving is more about the attacking game plan and a ball playing centre than what he can do himself.

[Pasty]

Ritson improving is more about the attacking game plan and a ball playing centre than what he can do himself.

I agree to some extent, but I think the best wingers create opportunities and I haven’t seem him do that. Though to be fair that would require that he gets the ball with even a sniff of a chance and I haven’t seen much of that either. From what I saw last year Bennison did better a taking half chances but he isn’t a winger.