Players leaving the club...

[The Yellow Giraffe]

IMO I think that you can say that someone is not good enough to play for Saints without saying they have a pea heart or are lazy. I personally find it's rude. The players put on the shirt and work hard for the club. Whether or not they are deemed good enough they still put the effort in. I've not read any comments saying that we're making a mistake by letting him go. He was signed as a project and it's not worked out. It's possible to just say 'Thanks and good luck'.

I have not said he is lazy.

I don't understand why people are getting upset about this. It's my opinion that he isn't brave enough or tough enough and that comes down to him and his own application to what he does. He doesn't have the heart or the bravery to be a top player. That isn't rude, that is my analysis of him. If all people ever said was platitudes such as "thanks and good luck" then forums like this would be a fairly dismal place. I have an opinion and I'm giving it; there is nothing rude about that.

[grungellamas]

I have not said he is lazy.

I don't understand why people are getting upset about this. It's my opinion that he isn't brave enough or tough enough and that comes down to him and his own application to what he does. He doesn't have the heart or the bravery to be a top player. That isn't rude, that is my analysis of him. If all people ever said was platitudes such as "thanks and good luck" then forums like this would be a fairly dismal place. I have an opinion and I'm giving it; there is nothing rude about that.

Apologies - I know you didn't say he was lazy, that was a comment from someone else. I'm not getting upset about it and agree that this is a place to share our opinions.

[wirefox]

I have not said he is lazy.

I don't understand why people are getting upset about this. It's my opinion that he isn't brave enough or tough enough and that comes down to him and his own application to what he does. He doesn't have the heart or the bravery to be a top player. That isn't rude, that is my analysis of him. If all people ever said was platitudes such as "thanks and good luck" then forums like this would be a fairly dismal place. I have an opinion and I'm giving it; there is nothing rude about that.

It will be interesting to se what Lamb does with him at Leigh. From all accounts he’s going to turn him into a world beater.

[LABSY]

I have not said he is lazy.

I don't understand why people are getting upset about this. It's my opinion that he isn't brave enough or tough enough and that comes down to him and his own application to what he does. He doesn't have the heart or the bravery to be a top player. That isn't rude, that is my analysis of him. If all people ever said was platitudes such as "thanks and good luck" then forums like this would be a fairly dismal place. I have an opinion and I'm giving it; there is nothing rude about that.

Perhaps if the criticism was down to ability deficiencies rather than mentioning more 'personality ' traits there would be less argument. if somebody doesnt have the skill set required at the level that they are being asked to play at, doesnt mean they dont have heart or are not brave enough. if they didnt have that they would not be trying to ply their profession is such a demanding and high profile sport.

[magic superbeetle]

Perhaps if the criticism was down to ability deficiencies rather than mentioning more 'personality ' traits there would be less argument. if somebody doesnt have the skill set required at the level that they are being asked to play at, doesnt mean they dont have heart or are not brave enough. if they didnt have that they would not be trying to ply their profession is such a demanding and high profile sport.

mental attributes are as equally important as physical, and just as open to criticism as other areas. Saying Norman doesn't have the the skill set to play at an elite level isn't true. Saying Norman doesn't have the physical attributes to play at an elite level isn't true. Saying Norman doesn't have the mental attributes to play at an elite level is true. We often have players told they're not big enough, dont have the hands etc so why "doesn't have the heart" is any different to those I don't know.

Just because hes chosen to try and make a career out of Rugby League doesn't mean he runs it in with the heart that Lees or Delaney. As others have said, prop is one of the most mentally daunting positions to play, you need to act like you have a diet of raw meat and have no regard for personal safety. Thats not how Norman plays the game, and thats why Norman has largely been a disappointment, because if he could play that way, he has the skillset and the physical attributes to go far.

[The Yellow Giraffe]

Perhaps if the criticism was down to ability deficiencies rather than mentioning more 'personality ' traits there would be less argument. if somebody doesnt have the skill set required at the level that they are being asked to play at, doesnt mean they dont have heart or are not brave enough. if they didnt have that they would not be trying to ply their profession is such a demanding and high profile sport.

Not running at full speed/intensity is not a lack of skillset; it's a lack of toughness. I am not picking apart his skillset; I am picking apart the way he applies himself in games and in my opinion he does not physically commit himself wholeheartedly.

mental attributes are as equally important as physical, and just as open to criticism as other areas. Saying Norman doesn't have the the skill set to play at an elite level isn't true. Saying Norman doesn't have the physical attributes to play at an elite level isn't true. Saying Norman doesn't have the mental attributes to play at an elite level is true. We often have players told they're not big enough, dont have the hands etc so why "doesn't have the heart" is any different to those I don't know.

Just because hes chosen to try and make a career out of Rugby League doesn't mean he runs it in with the heart that Lees or Delaney. As others have said, prop is one of the most mentally daunting positions to play, you need to act like you have a diet of raw meat and have no regard for personal safety. Thats not how Norman plays the game, and thats why Norman has largely been a disappointment, because if he could play that way, he has the skillset and the physical attributes to go far.

Spot on

[Voll au Vent]

Part of Norman's problem might be self-perception. I have heard from someone close to Norman that he has spoken with Wello over why Delaney was getting picked ahead of him, as he was a better player than Delaney. Says it all really.
With Delaney suspended for Saturday's game it will be interesting to see if Norman makes the 17.

[Blobbynator]

With Delaney suspended for Saturday's game it will be interesting to see if Norman makes the 17.

Nah, LMS will be selected over him. Doubt we'll see Norman in a Saints shirt now unless we pick up a spate of injuries in the pack (which is feasible I know).

[brook]

Bottom line on this one,if we needed a hard carry to clear our lines,would you give it to Delaney or Norman ?

[Pasty]

mental attributes are as equally important as physical, and just as open to criticism as other areas. Saying Norman doesn't have the the skill set to play at an elite level isn't true. Saying Norman doesn't have the physical attributes to play at an elite level isn't true. Saying Norman doesn't have the mental attributes to play at an elite level is true. We often have players told they're not big enough, dont have the hands etc so why "doesn't have the heart" is any different to those I don't know.

Just because hes chosen to try and make a career out of Rugby League doesn't mean he runs it in with the heart that Lees or Delaney. As others have said, prop is one of the most mentally daunting positions to play, you need to act like you have a diet of raw meat and have no regard for personal safety. Thats not how Norman plays the game, and thats why Norman has largely been a disappointment, because if he could play that way, he has the skillset and the physical attributes to go far.

I agree

[Roy Haggerty]

He's not lazy but you're right he lacks the mental side of it which is what people are talking about when they mention lack of heart/bottle. It's attitude/bravery/courage whatever you want to call it; he doesn't have it. He simply isn't tough enough to be a top player.

I think the reason people react against it is that having insufficient "heart" suggests a lack of courage, which is a pretty negative thing to say. Also pretty daft, because it's just not possible to play RL to any standard without courage, because there's no hiding place on that field.

What people mean is that he seems to lack aggression. It's true that you can play RL without being really aggressive - James Roby is a good example. But it's hard to play prop without being a very aggressive bloke on the field. And if you don't have a lot of aggression, then you have to be really very good indeed. Norman does seem to lack aggression. He doesn't run the ball in and tackle like he's trying to hurt the opposition (Lees and Knowles are at the other end of that scale). If he broke the line with his calm approach, none of us would care. But he doesn't, and that's what attracts the "heart" comments. I'm sure he's plenty of heart, but it's aggression he seems to lack. Which probably makes him a nicer guy off the field, but not great for success on it.

[Belgian Saint]

Bottom line on this one,if we needed a hard carry to clear our lines,would you give it to Delaney or Norman ?

I’d give to the relatively little guy.

[Belgian Saint]

I think the reason people react against it is that having insufficient "heart" suggests a lack of courage, which is a pretty negative thing to say. Also pretty daft, because it's just not possible to play RL to any standard without courage, because there's no hiding place on that field.

What people mean is that he seems to lack aggression. It's true that you can play RL without being really aggressive - James Roby is a good example. But it's hard to play prop without being a very aggressive bloke on the field. And if you don't have a lot of aggression, then you have to be really very good indeed. Norman does seem to lack aggression. He doesn't run the ball in and tackle like he's trying to hurt the opposition (Lees and Knowles are at the other end of that scale). If he broke the line with his calm approach, none of us would care. But he doesn't, and that's what attracts the "heart" comments. I'm sure he's plenty of heart, but it's aggression he seems to lack. Which probably makes him a nicer guy off the field, but not great for success on it.

Aggression is more what I meant when I said heart. He didn’t have to be a world beater, just run hard at the opposition. He is so lacking in aggression that he is probably a very nice guy off the field.

[STIDDY]

I have not said he is lazy.

I don't understand why people are getting upset about this. It's my opinion that he isn't brave enough or tough enough and that comes down to him and his own application to what he does. He doesn't have the heart or the bravery to be a top player. That isn't rude, that is my analysis of him. If all people ever said was platitudes such as "thanks and good luck" then forums like this would be a fairly dismal place. I have an opinion and I'm giving it; there is nothing rude about that.

We found that out with Greenwood and Ashworth both of them towards the end of their saints careers didn't do those tough carries and put their bodies on the line. Around that time Kyle Amor showed what was needed despite limited skills, from a Saints viewpoint Greenwood and Ashworth have gone into obscurity fron a saints standard and no doubt Norman will be the same. Club and player have tried but the hard reality he is not good enough, if he becomes a better player at Leigh then good on him.

[Dux]

We found that out with Greenwood and Ashworth both of them towards the end of their saints careers didn't do those tough carries and put their bodies on the line. Around that time Kyle Amor showed what was needed despite limited skills, from a Saints viewpoint Greenwood and Ashworth have gone into obscurity fron a saints standard and no doubt Norman will be the same. Club and player have tried but the hard reality he is not good enough, if he becomes a better player at Leigh then good on him.

I think you’re unfair on Ashworth. IMO he was a highly committed and physical player - he just wasn’t quite up to Saints level. I think he’s had a pretty decent career with Wakey since then. A very consistent player.

Agree on Greenwood, though. When he was on it he could be hard to handle, but that wasn’t very often - the version you usually got was pretty ineffectual.

[magic superbeetle]

I think you’re unfair on Ashworth. IMO he was a highly committed and physical player - he just wasn’t quite up to Saints level. I think he’s had a pretty decent career with Wakey since then. A very consistent player.

Agree on Greenwood, though. When he was on it he could be hard to handle, but that wasn’t very often - the version you usually got was pretty ineffectual.

Your thinking of Ashurst, Ashworth went to Huddersfield, and is now linked with Hull. Ashworth had all the attributes to be a top player, but had off field issues which distracted from what he could have been.

[Dux]

Your thinking of Ashurst, Ashworth went to Huddersfield, and is now linked with Hull. Ashworth had all the attributes to be a top player, but had off field issues which distracted from what he could have been.

Ah - right you are. I’m obviously losing it.