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Thread: 21 man squad v Leeds

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    One thing I did notice about Ritson is he seems a bit lightweight. He goes ok in defence but there was actually a couple of times he got a bit of space to run into on Friday, the problem is he gets stopped and/or grounded by the bare minimum of contact. He could probably do with either bulking up a bit or finding some aggression in his running if he wants to make it at the top end of super league level. If he ran with the conviction of Makinson I think he would have made about 3 breaks on Friday

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poysaint View Post
    One thing I did notice about Ritson is he seems a bit lightweight. He goes ok in defence but there was actually a couple of times he got a bit of space to run into on Friday, the problem is he gets stopped and/or grounded by the bare minimum of contact. He could probably do with either bulking up a bit or finding some aggression in his running if he wants to make it at the top end of super league level. If he ran with the conviction of Makinson I think he would have made about 3 breaks on Friday
    I couldn’t disagree with this more if I tried. To suggest he goes down with bare minimum contact is nonsense.

    The truth is he’s not had really any open spaces at all and when he has he’s looked really dangerous and made plenty ground. He poked his nose through a few times on Friday but you very rarely see any wingers running at and breaking a set defensive line. I find it bizarre that he’s being criticised for not making breaks with the opportunities he’s had.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poysaint View Post
    Isn’t that what we did for the Makinson try on Friday?
    I don’t mean 10m out, I mean with open field in front e.g. in our own half


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    Its unfair to compare Ritson with Grace but so far i havent really seen him make a break. He is fast and can finish and his defence does seem to be good. He just seems to be a fast , direct runner but doesnt have a sidestep or shimmy. Needs more time obviously but i was disappointed when he caught Dodds bomb and flung it inside with a poor pass to Wingfield. A good winger would have backed himself and scored there , i think, if hes being compared with the likes of French, Field, Marshall etc. Maybe a confidence thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    Its unfair to compare Ritson with Grace but so far i havent really seen him make a break. He is fast and can finish and his defence does seem to be good. He just seems to be a fast , direct runner but doesnt have a sidestep or shimmy. Needs more time obviously but i was disappointed when he caught Dodds bomb and flung it inside with a poor pass to Wingfield. A good winger would have backed himself and scored there , i think, if hes being compared with the likes of French, Field, Marshall etc. Maybe a confidence thing?
    Probably in a minority of one here, but I don't think Grace backed himself very often either. He certainly did 'have a sidestep or shimmy' though, and always seemed to me to be looking to use that rather than beat the man on the outside. As a result I don't think he scored as many long range tries as his pace probably warranted (the ones he did often came from cutting inside and then stepping the last man).

    Often thought that might be the reason Percy didn't give it to him as often as he might have (After all, if someone's going to cut in and bust a tackle was more likely to be him than Grace). Would like to see how he would behave with a fast straight runner outside him (though the habit may be too ingrained now)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    Its unfair to compare Ritson with Grace but so far i havent really seen him make a break. He is fast and can finish and his defence does seem to be good. He just seems to be a fast , direct runner but doesnt have a sidestep or shimmy. Needs more time obviously but i was disappointed when he caught Dodds bomb and flung it inside with a poor pass to Wingfield. A good winger would have backed himself and scored there , i think, if hes being compared with the likes of French, Field, Marshall etc. Maybe a confidence thing?
    I think it’s a confidence thing at this level. If that had been in the championship for barrow he’d have taken on the FB and probably scored.

    I like what I’ve seen from him so far. Hopefully we can get him quality ball so we can see him in full flight.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Poysaint View Post
    One thing I did notice about Ritson is he seems a bit lightweight. He goes ok in defence but there was actually a couple of times he got a bit of space to run into on Friday, the problem is he gets stopped and/or grounded by the bare minimum of contact. He could probably do with either bulking up a bit or finding some aggression in his running if he wants to make it at the top end of super league level. If he ran with the conviction of Makinson I think he would have made about 3 breaks on Friday
    He looks as though he has bulked up slightly compared to when I Use to see him at Barrow Raiders, he relied on Miloudi to get him that extra metre of space here at Saints he doesn't get that with the tighter Superleague defences. I should also imagine Matt Daniels has still got Ritson a "work in progress" on his strength and condition like Makinson.

    I remember Grace had a lot of development in his strength and conditioning and later became one of the top players for strength to weight ratio. Coaching wise he struggled a bit reading the game with his centre and staying on the outside instead of changing direction to receive the inside ball, Percival had no option but to go alone and we get a lot of that from him today. Ritson likewise will need to read the game to increase the attacking options but at the moment I think he will keep the shirt over Bennison at wing position which is pretty tough on Bennison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houghwood Saint View Post
    Its unfair to compare Ritson with Grace but so far i havent really seen him make a break. He is fast and can finish and his defence does seem to be good. He just seems to be a fast , direct runner but doesnt have a sidestep or shimmy. Needs more time obviously but i was disappointed when he caught Dodds bomb and flung it inside with a poor pass to Wingfield. A good winger would have backed himself and scored there , i think, if hes being compared with the likes of French, Field, Marshall etc. Maybe a confidence thing?
    Grace was a liability under the high ball for quite a while, until he became more confident. Ritson is a better defender than Grace was and safer under the bomb. I think he just needs time to develop and he'll be an excellent player. He's certainly taken his fair share of shots to the head this season, but since no one in a red vee has been responsible, that's okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DewiSant View Post
    Probably in a minority of one here, but I don't think Grace backed himself very often either. He certainly did 'have a sidestep or shimmy' though, and always seemed to me to be looking to use that rather than beat the man on the outside. As a result I don't think he scored as many long range tries as his pace probably warranted (the ones he did often came from cutting inside and then stepping the last man).

    Often thought that might be the reason Percy didn't give it to him as often as he might have (After all, if someone's going to cut in and bust a tackle was more likely to be him than Grace). Would like to see how he would behave with a fast straight runner outside him (though the habit may be too ingrained now)
    I agree he wasn’t good at using the touch line and taking people on outside, preferring to cut inside

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    Grace was a liability under the high ball for quite a while, until he became more confident. Ritson is a better defender than Grace was and safer under the bomb. I think he just needs time to develop and he'll be an excellent player. He's certainly taken his fair share of shots to the head this season, but since no one in a red vee has been responsible, that's okay.
    He has surprised me with some of the hits he has taken, then jumping straight back up.

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    Ian Smith now claiming the tackle on Holroyd was a hip drop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Ian Smith now claiming the tackle on Holroyd was a hip drop.
    Its strange that Ian Smith never mentioned the previous game when Saints played Halifax with the 4 hip drop tackles on Walmsley to get him down. Another attention seeking one joining the anti saints bandwagon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    He has surprised me with some of the hits he has taken, then jumping straight back up.
    I like what I've seen of Ritson. Seems like there's a player in him and seems like a good bloke too. I think he's worth a deal for the next couple of seasons and will get better given time and experience in the SL will another year in a full time environment.

    Also feel bad for Bennison - he's done a lot of things right and seems like a quality rugby player. He might not have the raw attributes of pace and power to claim a position... though I think he's one that offers great utility value at the moment and another who I think will grow into a fine player. He might end up like Lomax and take on various roles in the team over the years - and I hope he stays with us for the long term.

    Coming back to the whole team and Leeds performance. We're still way off the standards that we've set the past few years... and yet still not that far adrift on the league table. This year might be a year too far... though with a good run in the second half of the season and we could yet win another trophy or two.

    It's a tough gig for whoever was the coach this year - with expectations being maintained of success from the last years - and even more so for Wello, being an ex-player and held in so much esteem from his playing days. There's also a significant transition ahead in coming years with experienced players being phased out and new talent being phased in. Our academy is doing well producing some good quality - though i think the key to continued success will be some high quality recruitment - which is quite hard to come by at the moment.

    We've been so used to setting the standards and almost being unchallenged for 4 years - and i think this year as it turns out is a chance to reset and build our identity again. I hope Wello can pull it off as I feel he's a good coach and want him to grow. I liked what he was saying before he started the season about maintaining the intensity which has seen us succeed - whilst also bringing back the identity of being an entertaining rugby team which we've been known for (but lost) in more recent times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Christopher View Post
    I like what I've seen of Ritson. Seems like there's a player in him and seems like a good bloke too. I think he's worth a deal for the next couple of seasons and will get better given time and experience in the SL will another year in a full time environment.

    Also feel bad for Bennison - he's done a lot of things right and seems like a quality rugby player. He might not have the raw attributes of pace and power to claim a position... though I think he's one that offers great utility value at the moment and another who I think will grow into a fine player. He might end up like Lomax and take on various roles in the team over the years - and I hope he stays with us for the long term.

    Coming back to the whole team and Leeds performance. We're still way off the standards that we've set the past few years... and yet still not that far adrift on the league table. This year might be a year too far... though with a good run in the second half of the season and we could yet win another trophy or two.

    It's a tough gig for whoever was the coach this year - with expectations being maintained of success from the last years - and even more so for Wello, being an ex-player and held in so much esteem from his playing days. There's also a significant transition ahead in coming years with experienced players being phased out and new talent being phased in. Our academy is doing well producing some good quality - though i think the key to continued success will be some high quality recruitment - which is quite hard to come by at the moment.

    We've been so used to setting the standards and almost being unchallenged for 4 years - and i think this year as it turns out is a chance to reset and build our identity again. I hope Wello can pull it off as I feel he's a good coach and want him to grow. I liked what he was saying before he started the season about maintaining the intensity which has seen us succeed - whilst also bringing back the identity of being an entertaining rugby team which we've been known for (but lost) in more recent times.
    Fully agree with everything you have written. The academy always does well, it’s just how many of them can step up to be first team regulars. Off the top of my head, I think in the last couple of years there is Dodd, Wingfield and Delaney that look like they will be established first team players, with Bennison a good back up in a couple of positions.

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    On a more positive note; Walmsley ran for 233m against Leeds, with 8 tackle busts and 29 tackles. Insane effort. One of the very few players doing it week in week out at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    On a more positive note; Walmsley ran for 233m against Leeds, with 8 tackle busts and 29 tackles. Insane effort. One of the very few players doing it week in week out at the moment.
    That's some effort from the big man. Great that's he's coming back into form again - hopefully others will follow. Having Lees come back in will also help Big Al be at his best. Lees has been one of our best players this season so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    On a more positive note; Walmsley ran for 233m against Leeds, with 8 tackle busts and 29 tackles. Insane effort. One of the very few players doing it week in week out at the moment.
    His contribution was outstanding, in a role that gets less attention than the glamorous playmaker positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Christopher View Post
    I like what I've seen of Ritson. Seems like there's a player in him and seems like a good bloke too. I think he's worth a deal for the next couple of seasons and will get better given time and experience in the SL will another year in a full time environment.

    Also feel bad for Bennison - he's done a lot of things right and seems like a quality rugby player. He might not have the raw attributes of pace and power to claim a position... though I think he's one that offers great utility value at the moment and another who I think will grow into a fine player. He might end up like Lomax and take on various roles in the team over the years - and I hope he stays with us for the long term.

    Coming back to the whole team and Leeds performance. We're still way off the standards that we've set the past few years... and yet still not that far adrift on the league table. This year might be a year too far... though with a good run in the second half of the season and we could yet win another trophy or two.

    It's a tough gig for whoever was the coach this year - with expectations being maintained of success from the last years - and even more so for Wello, being an ex-player and held in so much esteem from his playing days. There's also a significant transition ahead in coming years with experienced players being phased out and new talent being phased in. Our academy is doing well producing some good quality - though i think the key to continued success will be some high quality recruitment - which is quite hard to come by at the moment.

    We've been so used to setting the standards and almost being unchallenged for 4 years - and i think this year as it turns out is a chance to reset and build our identity again. I hope Wello can pull it off as I feel he's a good coach and want him to grow. I liked what he was saying before he started the season about maintaining the intensity which has seen us succeed - whilst also bringing back the identity of being an entertaining rugby team which we've been known for (but lost) in more recent times.
    Me too, but the problem is that so far we've lost some of the intensity but not (yet?) really found the attacking rugby (apart from what is looking increasingly like a freak performance against Wire).

    There are plenty of potential reasons for this, which have been well rehearsed here and most of which have a lot of validity. But sooner or later the excuses have to stop and evidence of progress needs to start. Fingers crossed it's on Sunday.

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    You don’t believe anything this Pillock of a ref says..was one of the worse refs ever.. we’re Ashe crawled from…???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I don’t mean 10m out, I mean with open field in front e.g. in our own half

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    The last time I can remember was vs Warrington when Bennison scored and sent Dufty for a hot dog.

    It is strange that we do not do this more often. Teams are defending narrow against us so there is space outside. We either choose, or are told, not to take that risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poysaint View Post
    One thing I did notice about Ritson is he seems a bit lightweight. He goes ok in defence but there was actually a couple of times he got a bit of space to run into on Friday, the problem is he gets stopped and/or grounded by the bare minimum of contact. He could probably do with either bulking up a bit or finding some aggression in his running if he wants to make it at the top end of super league level. If he ran with the conviction of Makinson I think he would have made about 3 breaks on Friday
    You are right about Ritson being lightweight after that you ended up talking nonsense. Just my opinion mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DewiSant View Post
    I'm as concerned as anyone about how things are going at the moment, but I think any new coach is entitled to at least a year. I think very few coaches get it right in the first year (Holbrook certainly didn't (although we played a lot of attractive stuff) and although Woolf scored a flukey GF win I don't think his methods really took hold until his second year). The test really is how well they translate what they learn in that first year into improvements in the second. I think Wello's current travails shed an interesting light on the KC era. He deserved that first year too but when it was clear in his second year that it wasn't getting any better McManus should have made the call then (instead of giving him an unearned extension, presumably as some kind of 'confidence boost') and if the worst comes to the worst I sincerely hope he doesn't make the same mistake twice

    So long as we make the playoffs again this year (in many ways the record I most value) I think Wello's entitled to a fresh start next year, and that will be the real moment of truth. But if it starts to look like we won't, as it did under KC, that may force the management's hand. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that
    Couple of measured, quality posts there, mate.

    Wellens trying to gradually change/evolve the tactics of the team. We're still retaining some Woolfball elements, but have dropped/amended others. The problem is that, too often, we are falling between two stools.

    On the one hand, we've scaled-back the intensity of the Woolf defence, so teams are having more joy attacking us (I know we still have a good 'points conceded' tally, but teams making constant headway against us in games is knackering us out with scrambling defence).

    On the other, our attack is still too one-dimensional. We're not pinning defenders, not throwing attacking shapes at them, our offloading/backing up balance remains off. All to be expected after 3 solid seasons of focusing on percentage rugby with its foundation built on grinding the opposition into submission.

    I don't know if Wellens is the coach to make the transition into a more rounded team a success. I hope he is, and am happy (well, prepared) to give him the season then an offseason of recruitment and training to get his ideas implemented better.
    Last edited by Brian Nazareth; 30th May 2023 at 14:18.
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    As for the match itself (had a busy weekend so no time to post - probably as well, given the mood I was in Friday night... better to have time to calm down and reflect) we were well off our best.

    Leeds are a mid-table side. But Smith not only gets the best effort out of them for when they play us, but has specific tactics. They're the grubbiest side I've seen us face in SL this year - worse than Wigan. With Leeds, it's all the snide, dark-arts stuff. The niggles, the discreet shoulders, the verbals, the constant whining to the ref to try to get influence on decisions, the angry reactions by some to getting tackled (Newman & Handley in particular). Walters is a turd, but others not far behind.

    There was an incident late in the first half that really encapsulated not only the grubbiness of Leeds/Walters, but how Moore bought into their tactics. Louie is stood in the tackle with two players hold of him, one (Smith IIRC) wrapping the ball. Walters comes steaming in as third man and shoulder charges the kidney area of Louie (not even a hint of wrapping arms). Smith then yanks the ball as Louie goes to ground and the ball bobbles free. Moore ignores the shoulder and rules a knock-on rather than a ball-steal. In a centre-field position we should have had a penalty for either one of two fouls, we lost possession.

    I think as well that if Leeds put in as much effort & focus to beat lower-placed/more beatable teams, they wouldn't be where they are now - they've been beaten by Hull, Cas, Leigh, Salford, HKR as well as us, Wigan (CC) & Warrington, and beaten us, Catalans & Wigan.
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    Personally I thought Dodd had a reasonably good game on Friday. Came up with some good defensive choices as well.

    Im not debating endless points here but due to a combination of injuries and suspensions we have not had a settled side all season. I think if we start to at least get a settled pack on the field and hopefully win the forward battle our backs can start to perform off the back of it.

    I get the feeling on the back of a scratchy and error strewn performance but ultimately a huge win it could be a turning point in our campaign. Win at Magic and beat Wigan at home and we are well back in the mix for the top 4.

    I still think we have an excellent chance of making the 5 in a row but we cannot really afford and more dips in form between now and the business end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Personally I thought Dodd had a reasonably good game on Friday. Came up with some good defensive choices as well.

    Im not debating endless points here but due to a combination of injuries and suspensions we have not had a settled side all season. I think if we start to at least get a settled pack on the field and hopefully win the forward battle our backs can start to perform off the back of it.

    I get the feeling on the back of a scratchy and error strewn performance but ultimately a huge win it could be a turning point in our campaign. Win at Magic and beat Wigan at home and we are well back in the mix for the top 4.

    I still think we have an excellent chance of making the 5 in a row but we cannot really afford and more dips in form between now and the business end.
    Next few games

    Huddersfield
    Wigan
    Hull
    Hull (cup)
    Castleford

    A good opportunity to get some wins on the board there. If we can avoid injuries and suspensions we shound be able to get going a bit.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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