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Thread: England RL

  1. #51
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Belgian Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackrowSaint View Post
    That's just not realistic though is it. Dodd and Lomax are both carrying injuries, you can't then effectively ban them for a week for not playing in an international that's ludicrous. I'm not sure if Lees has picked up a knock against Wire but I assume he has if he's been ruled out.

    Let's be clear - no player doesn't want to play for their country. Punishing because they're injured is borderline idiotic. If their injuries dictate they need an extra week then they'll get the extra week, if not then they won't.

    Don’t forget he is commenting on Saints.

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    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    I am not sure mid season internationals work. What does this game even prove. I bet if we watched last years back we would see it had no impact on the squad that was eventually selected for the world cup. If we had the grand final a week earlier they could have France vs England as a proper warm up match for the international season.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    It's sad because the emergence of Tonga and Samoa means the international game is probably healthier in terms of breadth of good teams than it's been for a good while. Having 5 international sides who could realistically hope to make a WC Final or win a 4 or 5 nations comp is IMO something we should be happy about, but at the exact time we've broadened the top tier of international sides we seem to have given up doing anything of note outside of WCs.

    I'm afraid we're back where we were after the last home WC, with people in the game hopeful that the added interest would lead to more tests on the back of it and a renewed and vibrant international game, but both times it led or has led to almost nothing. We need an international rolling calendar like RU has, and the ARL need to flex their muscles a little and get the NRL out of the way of the Kangaroos touring and playing games, which will then release all the other players to play for their nations and well.
    With that emergence of Tonga and Samoa then you would expect England to go right down the ratings once Sanitised Superleague takes hold with the proposed tackling proposals. Tonga, Samoa and PNG are big hitters, that will disappear in the England game, I just can't see the game changing much in the Southern Hemisphere, come the next World Cup we could be playing 2 different games.

  4. #54
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    A friend of mine at work, Wire season ticket holder, wasnt even aware of the England game until Wires game against Wigan.

    I dont know if hes purchased a ticket.


    There seems to be a clamouring of bad ideas in response to this all twitter , regarding players (mainly saints) , not being available.

    This mid season International is a nothing game.


    Its comparable to England Football playing Luxenburg on a tuesday night in a friendly. Throw the kids out there, get them a cap, let them stake a claim.

  5. #55
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    For those interested (which I fear is the minority) the 19 man squad has been announced and it is quite weak.

    We look awful in the forwards and how the likes of Currie and Pearce-Paul are in is beyond me. However, I think the backs are quite exciting with a lot of pace.

    I think we will see something like this:

    Welsby
    Ashton
    Wardle
    King
    Handley
    Williams
    Smith
    Harrison
    Walker
    Dupree
    Nicholson
    Pearce-Paul
    Smithies

    Havard
    Holroyd
    Currie
    Lewis

    Jez Litten and Josh Thewlis to miss out.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    For those interested (which I fear is the minority) the 19 man squad has been announced and it is quite weak.

    We look awful in the forwards and how the likes of Currie and Pearce-Paul are in is beyond me. However, I think the backs are quite exciting with a lot of pace.

    I think we will see something like this:

    Welsby
    Ashton
    Wardle
    King
    Handley
    Williams
    Smith
    Harrison
    Walker
    Dupree
    Nicholson
    Pearce-Paul
    Smithies

    Havard
    Holroyd
    Currie
    Lewis

    Jez Litten and Josh Thewlis to miss out.
    I hope Welsby doesn’t do 80 min.

  7. #57
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Belgian Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    I am not sure mid season internationals work. What does this game even prove. I bet if we watched last years back we would see it had no impact on the squad that was eventually selected for the world cup. If we had the grand final a week earlier they could have France vs England as a proper warm up match for the international season.
    I have always been a supporter of the international game but with half the team in Aus and teams there not releasing players, how do you ever get a meaningful friendly anytime of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I have always been a supporter of the international game but with half the team in Aus and teams there not releasing players, how do you ever get a meaningful friendly anytime of the year.
    We have to acknowledge the fact that mid-season matches are imperfect but also acknowledge the fact that England getting together in camp, even if not the full squad, has benefits.

    I'm the first to acknowledge the game itself is a tough sell but the match itself is only one part of the meaning of the squad getting together mid-season.

    I think we just need to be supportive and it's slightly uncomfortable that Saints as a club haven't always seemed the most supportive when it comes to these games, whether that is fair or not.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I think we just need to be supportive and it's slightly uncomfortable that Saints as a club haven't always seemed the most supportive when it comes to these games, whether that is fair or not.
    Echo that, am sure selected players holding their hands up are motivated enough - would be very uncomfortable to catch up on a sense of camaraderie for international games that matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by jefmeister2004 View Post
    Echo that, am sure selected players holding their hands up are motivated enough - would be very uncomfortable to catch up on a sense of camaraderie for international games that matter
    England knights would beat the England squad that's left after all the drop outs

  11. #61
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I have always been a supporter of the international game but with half the team in Aus and teams there not releasing players, how do you ever get a meaningful friendly anytime of the year.
    Indeed, to do it properly you need to gain releases for all players in SLE and NRL then fly them to where ever the games are happening then back again. You they have issues with injuries going into the break and coming out of it. There is a lot of risk for little to no reward.

    From a St Helens perspective we are a couple of injuries away from disaster so I can understand why these players have dropped out.

    What would be the reaction if Welsby or Lewis (Hull KR) or Smith (Wigan) suffered a season ending injury in this meaningless game. A fully blown test series you can accept but there is no benefit of a one off friendly warming up for an end of season international calendar that hasn't even been arranged yet.

    Let's just have our grand finals give everyone a weekend off to travel then have a 5 week international window with everyone available and countries from all three tiers playing. All teams that played in the world cup should have meaningful fixtures to keep interest going. England vs Tonga in a multiple game series is a great start. Something replicating the RU autumn internationals would be great. Get another nation or two over here. Lebanon or Fiji would do the trick. Have them play France and Ireland. Give some tier 2 teams regular matches.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  12. #62
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    Default England RL

    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    For those interested (which I fear is the minority) the 19 man squad has been announced and it is quite weak.

    We look awful in the forwards and how the likes of Currie and Pearce-Paul are in is beyond me. However, I think the backs are quite exciting with a lot of pace.

    I think we will see something like this:

    Welsby
    Ashton
    Wardle
    King
    Handley
    Williams
    Smith
    Harrison
    Walker
    Dupree
    Nicholson
    Pearce-Paul
    Smithies

    Havard
    Holroyd
    Currie
    Lewis

    Jez Litten and Josh Thewlis to miss out.
    What an absolute waste of time this game is. Everything crossed that Welsby comes through unscathed.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

  13. #63
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    One more point, the game has been given a significant Leeds/Rob Burrow theme to it. There is a special shirt that has been made with a blue Cross. All the players wearing it past and present are Leeds players. I have no problem with this.

    But why then is the game being played in Warrington?
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    One more point, the game has been given a significant Leeds/Rob Burrow theme to it. There is a special shirt that has been made with a blue Cross. All the players wearing it past and present are Leeds players. I have no problem with this.

    But why then is the game being played in Warrington?
    Possibly because its a relatively small capacity and won't look too empty given the crowd is likely to be in region of , what? 6000 if they are lucky? I dont know of anyone that is going personally and we are 20 minutes drive away.

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    Starting A Programme Collection Roger Moore's Avatar
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    Are Wales, Scotland. Ireland , Cook Islands, Greece, Italy Jamaica Lebanon having get together games to develop the international game. Don't even know if Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Papua New Guinea , New Zealand or Australia are either . Let's not kid ourselves, the international game is nothing compared to the RU, nor will it ever be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    Are Wales, Scotland. Ireland , Cook Islands, Greece, Italy Jamaica Lebanon having get together games to develop the international game. Don't even know if Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Papua New Guinea , New Zealand or Australia are either . Let's not kid ourselves, the international game is nothing compared to the RU, nor will it ever be.
    https://www.scotlandrl.com/2023/03/3...ures-released/

    Just a quick look online because Scotland RL seems really active at the moment and they have this tournament page , posted March this year.


    Also check out European Rugby League. Lots of games being played in the Balkans and such.


    Its there, its just harnessing it.

  17. #67
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    When do GB play Australia in 3 Ashes test matches?

  18. #68
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    I'll be honest, I actually couldn't give a stuff about international Rugby League. I went to a couple of World Cup games because I thought I should, and I felt miffed after we'd lost against Samoa for a few minutes, but mainly because it had robbed me of seeing a decent occasion in the Final. As it happened, I was "lumbered" with a ticket for Australia v Samoa that I very nearly threw in the bin when I was walking through Chorlton in favour of watching West Didsbury & Chorlton v Squires Gate instead.

    The biggest issue is that Rugby League fails to see that by trying to compare itself to Rugby Union by having World Cups, home internationals etc, that rather than portraying the game in a positive light, it does just the opposite. What it does is draw comparisons, and those comparisons show us not in a bad light, but a truly dismal one.

    There was a time when there was a perception that international Rugby League was strong. That perception felt by outsiders was at a time when we effectively had Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand only, and they never really knew that France and Papua New Guinea even played the game. Even though more nations play the game now, the perception is that it is weak. This is because outsiders judge by the occasion and the spectacle they see on TV. Sometimes, less is more.

    To showcase your sport, you do not have 16 teams playing in front of terrible crowds and semi-finals in front of half full stadiums. You do not have Scotland playing Wales in front of 500 people and try to trump it up as proof that the game is expanding. You don't have New Zealand playing at home to Tonga and have 95% of the crowd supporting the away team, 99% of whom are just there because it's Tonga and not because they have any love or even knowledge of Rugby League.

    There are some sports in this world where international competition is king, and Rugby Union and cricket top the bill. In most other team sports, it plays second fiddle, and the vast majority of football fans would agree. The American sports, Aussie Rules and the Irish sports are great examples of where international competition does not exist and they don't care. They don't need international competition to attract crowds and be successful as sports.

    Rugby League's massive insecurity issues with Rugby Union are the absolutely only reason everybody gets excited by 17 New Zealand born players representing Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, and Lancashire/Yorkshire lads playing for Wales, Scotland and Ireland, yet such things really do make us a laughing stock.

    Once upon a time, I loved international Rugby League and that's when we were all comfortable in our clothing. We knew that there were only five teams, two of which were minor countries, one of which had lots of good players, but no serious interest from the public, and there were two countries were you could get big crowds, although you could question whether Australia has in the last two generations.

    Great Britain was a uniquely identifiable brand and even people in Godalming and Surbiton knew what it was all about. Packed houses for three match Test series' against Australia and to a lesser extent New Zealand captured the imagination and were different than what Union had (apart from four-yearly away Lions tours).

    I have never understood how England v Samoa in front of a half empty, half-interested Emirates in a World Cup Semi-Final creates a better impression than close-to-capacity passionate audiences at Old Trafford and Elland Road for Ashes Tests. That's what it was all about and I'd still say to this day that not winning the Ashes when they were there for the taking at Old Trafford in 1990 hurt ten times more than losing World Cup Finals and semi-finals. The Ashes meant something to Australia and Britain. They would bring large numbers here and we would take large numbers there. The Australians won the World Cup and I can guarantee that absolutely nobody in Australia gave a stuff.

    The Rugby League World Cup is a joke and so is pretty much everything else that we do internationally, these days. The crowd will be the lowest at the Halliwell Jones Stadium by a distance this season and that can't be good for the game.

    I couldn't care less if they play it in parks in Greece or Serbia. They've been doing this for thirty years or more and it never, ever goes anywhere. Russia, Kazakhstan, South Africa, Canada. They've all been touted as being the next big thing, only to completely disappear.

    Rugby Union got to these places a long time ago and you can't compete with that. We're decades too late. And the class barriers and prejudices of a bygone era prevented us from taking them on at that time when sport was growing.

    Union has been part of the fabric of many nations for over a century and that will not be broken down. I'll go back to perception, and the perception is that League is a minority sport whilst Union is a major sport, and we can only ever look a bit stupid when trying to take them on. That's why you've got to play to your strengths, and our strength is the club game and the club game in the heartlands. I couldn't care less if I'm dismissed as a 'flat-capper'. That's just lazy. Are Australian RL supporters flat-cappers too? The reality is that they are bright enough to realise that they absolutely do not need an international game for Rugby League to succeed over there. In fact, I suspect they'd rather not have one.

    People are attracted to Rugby League when they see a great game played in front of full-houses and in front of excited crowds. The absolute reality is that a cracking game between teams from backwater towns such as St. Helens and Wigan will attract far more new supporters than an England v France game in front of a quarter full stadium ever will.
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    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    Agree with much of that DD, except for the last bit. International RL creates interest from non RL fans that even the likes of Saints v Wigan does. I've colleagues and relations of colleagues who wouldn't even know Saints and Wigan were playing 20 minutes up the road, or even in a Geand Final, but who did go to World Cup games and loved it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Agree with much of that DD, except for the last bit. International RL creates interest from non RL fans that even the likes of Saints v Wigan does. I've colleagues and relations of colleagues who wouldn't even know Saints and Wigan were playing 20 minutes up the road, or even in a Geand Final, but who did go to World Cup games and loved it.
    The last paragraph was drawing a comparison between Saints v Wigan and this coming weekend. England v France in front of 5,000 certainly does the sport no favours.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Steps 1 to 6 Non-League Football

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    International RL is massive for the sport. Well, it’s not but it should be. Even despite Rugby League’s unique way to do daft things and implement strange things. Even during a World Cup where ticket prices were generally deemed expensive and ridiculous, England games still managed to pull over 100,000 in non-RL cities in Newcastle, Sheffield and London, so there’s definitely an appetite for the game from the event crowd that like sports and sporting events. Ideally, we’d have had 2023 fixtures to sell during the World Cup to use the momentum generated to sell tickets for it, but that’s another issue.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    I agree with Dave's thoughts on the Ashes. When I was a kid Ashes were the only thing I cared about at international level, but I cared alot about it. The whole tours were great, watching them roll up at KR, even pottering off to Wigan to watch them play there, the whole thing felt massive. The 3 tests were massive events, there was no attempt to create artificial attention because the concept sold itself and was popular. I was on the Stretford End for that 2nd test in 1990 as well, and was devastated at the loss, knowing full well we'd blown it and would lose the 3rd test in Leeds.

    World Cup's were irrelevant to me, it was all about the Ashes, and we ruined it, threw it away and wasted something that every 4 years was huge for the sport, dripping in prestige, history and meaning. The Aussies played their hearts out for it as well, it was a contest that meant just as much to both countries, sets of players and fans. Much like with cricket, World Cup's are fun to a degree, but both sets of players and fans in the two countries covet one thing more than anything, winning an Ashes series. Cricket thrives off the back of it, this summer will once again be a massive series and the concept is still alive and kicking. We threw it away.

    Much like with the thread on how to improve the game, too much emphasis is given on expanding everything and giving the less popular or smaller stuff a leg up. Whilst we continually take the top of the league for granted at the expense of creating artificial drama for the mid table sides, resulting in the top games lacking enough meaning, we also took the best thing about international RL (the Ashes) for granted and thought we could prosper by prioritising other stuff and making the game more 'open to all'. We basically lost the Ashes and thought stuff with more teams would be better, but I think history has proven that even World Cup's are not a suitable replacement.

  23. #73
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    If this weekend’s game had NRL players involved it might be more interesting, I won’t even bother to watch, I’d rather watch football which is saying something

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Possibly because its a relatively small capacity and won't look too empty given the crowd is likely to be in region of , what? 6000 if they are lucky? I dont know of anyone that is going personally and we are 20 minutes drive away.
    I bought tickets ages ago as thought nothing to lose for £10/£5 and would be a bit of a laugh

    I knew that the NRL players wouldn't be there but thought we would see a more experienced squad a more big names than this. Will still go but this is now more of an England Knights v France (whatever a knight is in French).

    Can fully understand clubs not wanted to risk tired or injured players and give them a rest but this is another example of how the game needs to balance the competing interests of club and country. Are mid season games of any type ever going to work as Origin, Exiles and now this have all had the same problem. Also highlighted elsewhere no attempt seems to have been made to give Scotland, Ireland Wales etc a run out as well.

    Hey ho will be going along and hopefully we can see the big names of the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    I'll be honest, I actually couldn't give a stuff about international Rugby League. I went to a couple of World Cup games because I thought I should, and I felt miffed after we'd lost against Samoa for a few minutes, but mainly because it had robbed me of seeing a decent occasion in the Final. As it happened, I was "lumbered" with a ticket for Australia v Samoa that I very nearly threw in the bin when I was walking through Chorlton in favour of watching West Didsbury & Chorlton v Squires Gate instead.

    The biggest issue is that Rugby League fails to see that by trying to compare itself to Rugby Union by having World Cups, home internationals etc, that rather than portraying the game in a positive light, it does just the opposite. What it does is draw comparisons, and those comparisons show us not in a bad light, but a truly dismal one.

    There was a time when there was a perception that international Rugby League was strong. That perception felt by outsiders was at a time when we effectively had Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand only, and they never really knew that France and Papua New Guinea even played the game. Even though more nations play the game now, the perception is that it is weak. This is because outsiders judge by the occasion and the spectacle they see on TV. Sometimes, less is more.

    To showcase your sport, you do not have 16 teams playing in front of terrible crowds and semi-finals in front of half full stadiums. You do not have Scotland playing Wales in front of 500 people and try to trump it up as proof that the game is expanding. You don't have New Zealand playing at home to Tonga and have 95% of the crowd supporting the away team, 99% of whom are just there because it's Tonga and not because they have any love or even knowledge of Rugby League.

    There are some sports in this world where international competition is king, and Rugby Union and cricket top the bill. In most other team sports, it plays second fiddle, and the vast majority of football fans would agree. The American sports, Aussie Rules and the Irish sports are great examples of where international competition does not exist and they don't care. They don't need international competition to attract crowds and be successful as sports.

    Rugby League's massive insecurity issues with Rugby Union are the absolutely only reason everybody gets excited by 17 New Zealand born players representing Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, and Lancashire/Yorkshire lads playing for Wales, Scotland and Ireland, yet such things really do make us a laughing stock.

    Once upon a time, I loved international Rugby League and that's when we were all comfortable in our clothing. We knew that there were only five teams, two of which were minor countries, one of which had lots of good players, but no serious interest from the public, and there were two countries were you could get big crowds, although you could question whether Australia has in the last two generations.

    Great Britain was a uniquely identifiable brand and even people in Godalming and Surbiton knew what it was all about. Packed houses for three match Test series' against Australia and to a lesser extent New Zealand captured the imagination and were different than what Union had (apart from four-yearly away Lions tours).

    I have never understood how England v Samoa in front of a half empty, half-interested Emirates in a World Cup Semi-Final creates a better impression than close-to-capacity passionate audiences at Old Trafford and Elland Road for Ashes Tests. That's what it was all about and I'd still say to this day that not winning the Ashes when they were there for the taking at Old Trafford in 1990 hurt ten times more than losing World Cup Finals and semi-finals. The Ashes meant something to Australia and Britain. They would bring large numbers here and we would take large numbers there. The Australians won the World Cup and I can guarantee that absolutely nobody in Australia gave a stuff.

    The Rugby League World Cup is a joke and so is pretty much everything else that we do internationally, these days. The crowd will be the lowest at the Halliwell Jones Stadium by a distance this season and that can't be good for the game.

    I couldn't care less if they play it in parks in Greece or Serbia. They've been doing this for thirty years or more and it never, ever goes anywhere. Russia, Kazakhstan, South Africa, Canada. They've all been touted as being the next big thing, only to completely disappear.

    Rugby Union got to these places a long time ago and you can't compete with that. We're decades too late. And the class barriers and prejudices of a bygone era prevented us from taking them on at that time when sport was growing.

    Union has been part of the fabric of many nations for over a century and that will not be broken down. I'll go back to perception, and the perception is that League is a minority sport whilst Union is a major sport, and we can only ever look a bit stupid when trying to take them on. That's why you've got to play to your strengths, and our strength is the club game and the club game in the heartlands. I couldn't care less if I'm dismissed as a 'flat-capper'. That's just lazy. Are Australian RL supporters flat-cappers too? The reality is that they are bright enough to realise that they absolutely do not need an international game for Rugby League to succeed over there. In fact, I suspect they'd rather not have one.

    People are attracted to Rugby League when they see a great game played in front of full-houses and in front of excited crowds. The absolute reality is that a cracking game between teams from backwater towns such as St. Helens and Wigan will attract far more new supporters than an England v France game in front of a quarter full stadium ever will.
    A good post, all your points are valid ones. Some I disagree with and some I agree with.

    Let's start with agree....

    https://twitter.com/AWynnWIG/status/...NH_liHiAw&s=08

    WTF is that? This sums up the negative side of these games. It is tin pot and meaningless and the RFL are treating it that way. They could at least call it an England Select XIII to down play the low bar that classes as an England International.

    My attitude towards a lot RL does is only do something if you intend to do it properly. The second you dont have the NRL players available you aren't doing it properly and other things are bound to slip. Why is a SL based centre going to play with a lingering injury to just get dropped for Herbie Farnworth when we get to the real stuff at the end?

    Regarding the RL world cup. I thought there were a lot of positives from the tournament. We do seem to set an unfair level on what we expect. We complain that we have one sided games but football/cricket/Union World cups all have meaningless one sided games. A big part of the tournament is seeing nations from around the world compete regardless of the standard. You then get good games at the end.

    The negative was the choices of stadium, crowds and the pricing. Which it feels like it went against what Rugby League fans want and expect. However a lot of fans expected the tickets to drop in price because that is what RL does. I have bought tickets in advance and have been stung when poor teams are drawn and tickets have been given away the week before. I would have been an idiot to buy full priced tickets in advance. The organisers had this to contend with which hurt ticket sales. They went for premium venues and premium prices and it just didn't work at all but at least they had the faith in the competition to try. They really needed to go either premium prices or big venues but building the WC into a premium event is something that is achievable and needs doing.

    I disagree with your negativity regarding the Pacific Nations, heritage in that part of the world is pretty messy. If you only allowed "real" Tongans/New Zealanders/Australian play for their country no one would play of anyone including Aus/NZ. Infact New Zealand have been picking non Kiwis for years. RL actually is gaining ground in Australia and the Pacific over Union. To the point it is hurting SOO. It would seem we are on the verge of an international RL renaissance. However, again the RFL are letting everyone down with the home nations. If we want to keep sticking Wales in world cups they need to be better at playing and better at being Welsh. We can only fix this by having strong club sides playing in the home nations.

    In the end as a sport we need to take every opportunity we have and international RL for years has been a massive missed opportunity. The perception of our strength and meaningfulness as a sport is based on our international footprint. That isn't going to change by ignoring it. We just need to decide if we care enough to take serious steps to do it properly.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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