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Thread: Cunningham MK2

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    These players are too good and have achieved too much for us to suddenly become a bad team

    Once we get everyone back on the field we’ll start racking up the wins

    The only grumble we can have is that left wing position, most people said going into the season without resolving that was a problem and it will rumble on, leaving Wellens open for criticism for criticism
    Main concern at the momemt is the possible creep of "Team Togetherness" becoming detached, this is the biggest job for Wello to address. Watched a few of our game replays and I could see a few occasions when some of our players are getting frustrated with one another, some will be mentally tougher than others, Knowles and Lees played big against Leigh but others are dropping off the intensity to the effect we are not a 80 min team at the moment.

    For me the likes of Walmsley, Makinson and Welsby are struggling a bit and are just a level under their high standards they set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    These players are too good and have achieved too much for us to suddenly become a bad team

    Once we get everyone back on the field we’ll start racking up the wins

    The only grumble we can have is that left wing position, most people said going into the season without resolving that was a problem and it will rumble on, leaving Wellens open for criticism for criticism
    easy answer, play Ritson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint from Bury View Post
    easy answer, play Ritson
    It is one easy answer, the other easy answer is play Bennison.

    Wello will go for what he believes to be the right answer rather than the easy answer and I'm sure we will see a fair bit of Ritson once we are a bit more settled on the edges and he's had a bit longer working in our system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Main concern at the momemt is the possible creep of "Team Togetherness" becoming detached, this is the biggest job for Wello to address. Watched a few of our game replays and I could see a few occasions when some of our players are getting frustrated with one another, some will be mentally tougher than others, Knowles and Lees played big against Leigh but others are dropping off the intensity to the effect we are not a 80 min team at the moment.

    For me the likes of Walmsley, Makinson and Welsby are struggling a bit and are just a level under their high standards they set.
    Wasn’t Lees being sin binned partly to blame for our loss. Leading 4-12, he gets binned when he comes back on we are behind. I wouldn’t class that as playing big, id class it as being stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pramtown View Post
    Wasn’t Lees being sin binned partly to blame for our loss. Leading 4-12, he gets binned when he comes back on we are behind. I wouldn’t class that as playing big, id class it as being stupid.
    Lees played his normal game, he shouldn't have been binned with a swinging flat hand on the back/shoulder. I would say the decision of a yellow was the ref being stupid our players were certainly not happy with that decision, hopefully the disciplinary will see it that way tomorrow.

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    [QUOTE=pramtown;866733]Wasn’t Lees being sin binned partly to blame for our loss. Leading 4-12, he gets binned when he comes back on we are behind. I wouldn’t class that as playing big, id class it as being stupid.[

    Is sending off influenced the, result but the sin bin was pretty harsh. There were worse tackles than that going unpunished in every game. If you are saying Lees is culpable you probably haven’t seen it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    These players are too good and have achieved too much for us to suddenly become a bad team

    Once we get everyone back on the field weÂ’ll start racking up the wins

    The only grumble we can have is that left wing position, most people said going into the season without resolving that was a problem and it will rumble on, leaving Wellens open for criticism for criticism
    The other grumble and as I keep saying, is what is happening at 9/14.

    Huge ask for Roby to make the amount of tackles he needs to do from 9 and then offer spark out of there as well. You do have to wonder about the faith the club has in Lussick to come on and have an effect on the attack. No points scored in the second half against Leigh. How many minutes did Lussick play?

    Discipline is also an issue and that's on the players...surprised people on here questioning Lees' sin binning. Seen the footage and clear contact with the head. Wellens himself has said he crossed the line.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint from Bury View Post
    easy answer, play Ritson
    I agree with bringing in Ritson.

    However not quite that simple.

    If Saints play to current attacking structures on the left he doesn't get any ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    These players are too good and have achieved too much for us to suddenly become a bad team

    Once we get everyone back on the field we’ll start racking up the wins

    The only grumble we can have is that left wing position, most people said going into the season without resolving that was a problem and it will rumble on, leaving Wellens open for criticism for criticism
    May be in a minority here, but I think that, in the grand scheme of things, the left wing situation is a relatively minor problem for us at the moment.

    I think a far bigger problem is how we are going to play our way back into some kind of form after the WCC hangover without the luxury of the 'easy' games we used to enjoy against the likes of Salford and London.

    Of course it would be helped if we could start getting a settled team on the park, but that isn't helped by a combination of ill-discipline and (I honestly believe, and without any allegation of conspiracy) us being reffed a little more harshly harshly than most at the moment.

    (The fact that Hopoate seems to be realising the fears of some of us and Lussick seems to proving something of a dud doesn't help either - but Wello has to play the hand he has been dealt)

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    Quote Originally Posted by DewiSant View Post
    May be in a minority here, but I think that, in the grand scheme of things, the left wing situation is a relatively minor problem for us at the moment.

    I think a far bigger problem is how we are going to play our way back into some kind of form after the WCC hangover without the luxury of the 'easy' games we used to enjoy against the likes of Salford and London.

    Of course it would be helped if we could start getting a settled team on the park, but that isn't helped by a combination of ill-discipline and (I honestly believe, and without any allegation of conspiracy) us being reffed a little more harshly harshly than most at the moment.

    (The fact that Hopoate seems to be realising the fears of some of us and Lussick seems to proving something of a dud doesn't help either - but Wello has to play the hand he has been dealt)
    You would hope that between the clubs and the RFL we will get a bit more consistency with the disciplinary (though that may be more hope than expectancy]. If the games continue to bel reffed the same way it will become a bit of a farce, with the Refs getting more attention than the players. After the tough grind of the WCC and the travel, if we get through the, next couple of games, we may get the benefit of the enforced rest of some of our key players at the business end.

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    I watched supported Saints from 1952 , travelling by bus from when i got married in 1963 most of the time it was good but a lot of the time it wasnt but when i had time and money i went , i think the OP should have just been ignored , i have now retired from going to games but will still watch and be a Saints supporter from home , i would like to mention to hpoefully cheer things up we play Hull this week and Salford scored 60 against them Come On YOU SAINTS .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Ged View Post
    I watched supported Saints from 1952 , travelling by bus from when i got married in 1963 most of the time it was good but a lot of the time it wasnt but when i had time and money i went , i think the OP should have just been ignored , i have now retired from going to games but will still watch and be a Saints supporter from home , i would like to mention to hpoefully cheer things up we play Hull this week and Salford scored 60 against them Come On YOU SAINTS .
    When we beat Hull, Even the OP will have changed their mind and saying Wello is the best Coach ever. It is either a hoax or a knee jerk reaction.

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    Ask anybody on this forum with their head screwed on if they'd have taken winning the WCC for losing 2 of the opening 3 league games and I think the vast vast majority would have taken it without any hesitation. Some people are still under some false apprehension that league games mean loads, they simply don't. There is barely any comparison between a couple of league losses in March and winning a WCC in Australia, and any drop in intensity or attitude after that win in Penrith isn't going to trouble me. The modern RL season is about peaking at certain times, whether it be around the window when the Cup gets to the business end or Sept/Oct when the playoffs roll around. The rest has become mere filler, week after week of irrelevance where you can lose a dozen games and still be 2 wins from the GF (see Leeds last year). To spend the entire off-season priming yourself for what was deemed to be a near-impossible yet potentially historic night must be difficult to adapt to afterwards. You win what some say is the biggest achievement in the clubs history in your first real game of the season, and then have to play these diluted league games, it's tough to get up for them when you know they mean little, and it will take the team time.

    But they are winners, and if 2023 ends up being a season where instead of trying to be the best team every week we instead just prove that we're the best over the 7 or 8 games that really count, so be it. We'll be fine, nothing that has happened in 2023 so far will hurt us one bit, but what we've achieved so far in 2023 will last forever. We've won the only game that's mattered, the game that mattered loads, and after 2 irrelevant defeats we've got some calling for the coaches head? Just bizarre, and it makes some of us look like a bunch of ungrateful morons. If Paul Wellens is being put under any pressure by any Saints fans right now, I despair, truly, and those doing so simply don't deserve the success we've seen.

    This lad is Saints to the core, an icon of our club and he's coached us to a WCC in his first game in charge. That's all that matters right now. This team will recover, they will get their collective heads right for the challenges ahead and will win more trophies this season. And when we do, nobody will care that we lost at Leigh in March.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    This lad is Saints to the core, an icon of our club. That's all that matters right now. This team will recover, they will get their collective heads right for the challenges ahead and will win more trophies this season. And when we do, nobody will care that we lost at Leigh in March.
    Hopefully, but so was Keiron Cunningham. The run we've been on can't go on forever and we look a team that is going to suffer a bit because it hasn't recruited and refreshed as teams at the top need to do. I don't think we'll walk this season at all, think it could be a difficult season. Another trophy would be fantastic and I hope you're right, but it's arrogant to just assume that it's going to happen. We're nowhere near as far in front as we were in previous years, if we're in front at all now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Ask anybody on this forum with their head screwed on if they'd have taken winning the WCC for losing 2 of the opening 3 league games and I think the vast vast majority would have taken it without any hesitation. Some people are still under some false apprehension that league games mean loads, they simply don't. There is barely any comparison between a couple of league losses in March and winning a WCC in Australia, and any drop in intensity or attitude after that win in Penrith isn't going to trouble me. The modern RL season is about peaking at certain times, whether it be around the window when the Cup gets to the business end or Sept/Oct when the playoffs roll around. The rest has become mere filler, week after week of irrelevance where you can lose a dozen games and still be 2 wins from the GF (see Leeds last year). To spend the entire off-season priming yourself for what was deemed to be a near-impossible yet potentially historic night must be difficult to adapt to afterwards. You win what some say is the biggest achievement in the clubs history in your first real game of the season, and then have to play these diluted league games, it's tough to get up for them when you know they mean little, and it will take the team time.

    But they are winners, and if 2023 ends up being a season where instead of trying to be the best team every week we instead just prove that we're the best over the 7 or 8 games that really count, so be it. We'll be fine, nothing that has happened in 2023 so far will hurt us one bit, but what we've achieved so far in 2023 will last forever. We've won the only game that's mattered, the game that mattered loads, and after 2 irrelevant defeats we've got some calling for the coaches head? Just bizarre, and it makes some of us look like a bunch of ungrateful morons. If Paul Wellens is being put under any pressure by any Saints fans right now, I despair, truly, and those doing so simply don't deserve the success we've seen.

    This lad is Saints to the core, an icon of our club and he's coached us to a WCC in his first game in charge. That's all that matters right now. This team will recover, they will get their collective heads right for the challenges ahead and will win more trophies this season. And when we do, nobody will care that we lost at Leigh in March.
    Summed it up perfectly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Hopefully, but so was Keiron Cunningham. The run we've been on can't go on forever and we look a team that is going to suffer a bit because it hasn't recruited and refreshed as teams at the top need to do. I don't think we'll walk this season at all, think it could be a difficult season. Another trophy would be fantastic and I hope you're right, but it's arrogant to just assume that it's going to happen. We're nowhere near as far in front as we were in previous years, if we're in front at all now.
    Get a full-ish team on the pitch and we are the best side in SL.

    Let’s not overreact - we were always going to dip after the WCC and we know we will finish in the play-offs which is all that matters at the end of the day.

    I still think it was a big error not to play the kids at Cas - I’m no sports scientist but I think that initial rest was sensible rather than battling through for weeks.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    We are absolutely knackered at the moment, thats clear to see. Just need to push through this tough period. I don't think for one minute we won't be up there this season, but this will be the first time in a few years that we won't be challenging for the LLS.

    I don't buy the conspiracy of refs against us as I think we we pushed the limits last year and got away with some stuff. The players sat in the stands can't blame anyone, its their fault they are banned. Its not like Matautia and Sironen didn't know the rules, they spent half of last season sat in the stands.

    Its also clear that we also need to manage the squad more based on the WCC exertions. I know that Roby could've played against Leeds and Hopoate could've played against Leigh but clearly the club are going for the long-term game with the team selections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    We are absolutely knackered at the moment, thats clear to see. Just need to push through this tough period. I don't think for one minute we won't be up there this season, but this will be the first time in a few years that we won't be challenging for the LLS.
    Bit too early to make that assumption. Whilst we've lost 2 already, Wigan have also lost the same. Warrington started well last season but fell off so who knows if they can keep up their consistency. Catalans, who knows? Everybody else has already lost so we've not got alot of ground to make up yet. There's 24 games to recover this season and we simply don't know how we will recover. We could go on a big run of wins soon and overtake everyone.

    I suspect come the end of the year we will be right up there but I wouldn't be throwing everything at finishing top given we did it last year and the impact of the WCC. As long as we're in striking distance come the Play Offs and we can keep everyone fit for the cup that's the main thing.
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    A question of keeping composed and balanced.

    Get players back on deck.

    Don't allow the fatigue thing to become the defining narrative for 2023.

    Sort the discipline out.

    Accept that just trying to replicate the woolf power game will not be enough for 2023 and work on imporving attacking threat ( A season long work in progress).


    These things don't all get fixed against Hull but it is a starting point.

    In short no need to panic but can't be complecent and think things will just fix themselves either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    I know that Roby could've played against Leeds and Hopoate could've played against Leigh but clearly the club are going for the long-term game with the team selections.
    The Hopoate thing has been done to death and whilst I am very much in the 'frustrated with him' camp, what's becoming evident is that our strategy needs to be on the basis of 'which 40 minutes do we need most from him'. It wasn't Leigh for sure and I suspect we may hold him back for Good Friday. Then he'll be out again and we need to manage him for the next big game.

    That's not a pop at him as I am pretty much done expecting a significant contribution, just the reality in that he is never going to put a run of games together and needs to leave at the end of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Bit too early to make that assumption. Whilst we've lost 2 already, Wigan have also lost the same. Warrington started well last season but fell off so who knows if they can keep up their consistency. Catalans, who knows? Everybody else has already lost so we've not got alot of ground to make up yet. There's 24 games to recover this season and we simply don't know how we will recover. We could go on a big run of wins soon and overtake everyone.

    I suspect come the end of the year we will be right up there but I wouldn't be throwing everything at finishing top given we did it last year and the impact of the WCC. As long as we're in striking distance come the Play Offs and we can keep everyone fit for the cup that's the main thing.
    I should imagine its more about mental fitness than physical fitness, we are getting frustrated and losing composure when the going gets tough. I think the players know that its very demanding to go for a 5th title and the dissruption of the WCC and match bans is making it tougher to overcome quickly. Fans need to be patient and give the players a lift as much as we can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    We're nowhere near as far in front as we were in previous years, if we're in front at all now.
    But we don't need to be. I don't particularly like how we structure our seasons in RL, but they are structured to offer very little reward to those teams who are ahead of the pack week after week. After what we've done the last 4 years we don't need to go for LLS and being the dominant force week in week out, we just need to be ready for the big challenges that are all well down the road. We need to play the game, like Leeds have done many times, and peak when we need to.

    The challenge Wello was always going to have is how to keep a team motivated after it has won so much, but I think that's a 2024 problem. The motivation to win 5 in a row must be big, and I think we'll be fine when the big games roll around. If we do win a 5th we'll then see a natural end of the cycle of this team and I expect some will depart and we'll need to build again, but that's for the future. We've had a rough start in the league but that's all it is, it's not that important and for once I'll be happy to see Saints being the side that takes advantage of the system and peaks when they need to.

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    Always a bit late to threads by the time I check on a Monday morning!

    We should be 0/3 really, Cas had plenty chances. To lose to Leigh 20-0 in the second half shows both how far off it we are but also that they're a lot better than they've been in recent years.

    Nobody wants him to go etc as we sit here. People just have some concerns but atm I think that's based on the last time we appointed an ex player rather than the current situation.

    My only thing is I hope he's judged as a coach and not as PW the legendary player.

    The reason KC got so long in the end is because he is a club legend on the field but that's irrelevant when it comes to judging people as a coach. Wellens is nothing like KC at this stage though so I'm not comparing their jobs, just a blanket statement on former players as coach.

    I'm sure all will be fine and by fine I mean probably top 4 then see what happens - as many have said the way the sport is this isn't an issue really as of yet.

    I imagine Wellens is hurting more than anyone at the minute, though. No way he'd have envisaged this start even after Aus.

    In a sport like RL it does go in cycles and we will have our time away from trophies, which is fine, but I'd hate for us to leave some on the table this year as we are still the best team in the league when we're on it as the WCC shows. That's the pressure on Wellens.

    On a positive note, we're playing a team at home Friday who have just conceded 100 points in their last 2 so he's got an easy enough game to get the season going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Ask anybody on this forum with their head screwed on if they'd have taken winning the WCC for losing 2 of the opening 3 league games and I think the vast vast majority would have taken it without any hesitation. Some people are still under some false apprehension that league games mean loads, they simply don't.
    If anyone is raising concerns purely on the basis of the results then I agree. But there seem to be 4 major themes across the 3 games so far, which for me is more troubling than just the results;

    Attack; Arguably an inherited problem as we have been clunky in attack for the best part of 12 months. However with the return of Dodd you only have to look at how we were terrorising teams before Easter to see what it could look like and we are nowhere near at the moment.

    Defence; Was always Woolfs saving grace, but its all rather gone to pot. As I have posted elsewhere, Wellens needs to either fire a rocket to get the effort levels in defence back up to the 110% that they were so that the benefits of the compressed defence can be realised again, or we need to adapt how we defend to be slightly more traditional until we do/can, because "just riding it out" isn't an option as its one of our major killers at the moment.

    Discipline; Again, arguably an inherited problem, but that just gives me even less faith we can resolve it. The cards we have seen this season haven't been malicious, but just tired efforts, and again in some ways come back to "change it until the team is ready for the high energy model again". Its easy to see the reffing conspiracy at times, but as I have often said, the refs aren't intelligent enough for it to be more than incompetence so we just have to find a way to cut out the penalties, back to 6s and cards.

    Attitude; Has been touched on quite a bit in this thread, but its hard to assess whether some of the things were seeing is fatigue or attitude. Mata'utia talked about it in his "im off to Aus" interview about how hard it is that every team every week wants to take down the champions, and that's going to be only worse with the WCC in our pocket. Couple that with lots of talk about winning the WCC being the pinnacle of the history of the club and it raises the question about whether some of the players will be able to find that extra 2%, or are we going to average 50 missed tackled a game for the rest of the year. I am sure that 5 in a row, and Do it for Roby will kick in later in the year, but its hard to know if that will be enough to change the tide.

    I may or may not have a 5th element on team selection, as I still think we should have played the kids against Castleford, and allowed the senior players a clean break between WCC and SL, but thats somewhat situational, and with everything else may also have seen us 0-3 so its just one to watch for now!

    Win or lose against Hull wont influence my response to this thread, seeing improvement in these 4 areas will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post

    On a positive note, we're playing a team at home Friday who have just conceded 100 points in their last 2 so he's got an easy enough game to get the season going.
    Disagree with this. Its the worst time to play them, they will want a response

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