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Thread: Union money issues

  1. #76
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    I was at West Park in the late 70s/early 80s and it was RU and cricket. No RL and no football. Still turned a few decent league players though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Just on the school rugby front, I was surprised to learn that at some stage schools in St Helens and other Rugby League towns had been more or less compelled by some curriculum change to play Rugby Union and, I think, drop Rugby League. I may have misunderstood what somebody on here posted so IÂ’m not sure of my facts.

    When I was at school, all local schools except Cowley Boys, West Park and Grange Park played Rugby League. Those selective schools played Union. Playing League at school was important because it gave all participants, boys but not girls, an understanding of the game and rules. It helped with participation and being a fan of the, then, semi-professional game.

    I know that schools certainly play Rugby League today. In Newport thereÂ’s a local secondary school called Burton Borough and at the time of the last World Cup in this country they took a couple of coaches down to the semi-final because they were certainly playing Rugby League at that time. I think playing it in school and promoting the amateur game (thereÂ’s a club in Telford) is the way forward, not shoe horning professional clubs into areas were local people have no inherent understanding of the game. IÂ’d qualify that, however, by saying that when a IÂ’ve taken Union fans to Saints theyÂ’ve shown an immediate understanding of certain facets of the game.
    I think that was the case in previous decades. I coach my twins at West Park u9s. I was amazed to find out that there's virtually no union played in schools in St Helens. All league at De La Salle Cowley and Rainford High. We have a thriving mini and junior section of boys and girls that love rugby. They don't know there are two codes. Most also watch Saints. But the route to Union for them is usually a parent who's an ex player. It's hard to maintain momentum throughout the teenage years so we share kids with other league teams and vice versa. Our first team lads play at Haresfinch. Amateur Rugby Union in St Helens is a world away from the national and international game. I'm 50 and going to my first England international in a fortnight. Very different worlds. Many lump the amateur and pro games together. All rugby clubs seemingly at every level are struggling to survive. I love both codes. Enjoy both while you can and learn good and bad from each other.

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    London Irish rumoured to be on the brink of going under that's the 3rd team following Wasps & Worcester's demise last year

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    Quote Originally Posted by philthompson View Post
    London Irish rumoured to be on the brink of going under that's the 3rd team following Wasps & Worcester's demise last year

    Losing another team from their top competition would be a big hit

    All is not rosy in the RL garden but if it was to happen to us we could replace a current SL team with the likes of Widnes, Featherstone, Toulouse etc - decent teams with a good support base and decent stadia.

    In Union, outside of their top league you are looking at teams basically playing on fields. It is very much still a social club format. Also for the likes of Wasps who now have to go right to the bottom of the RU structure there is now really no way back.

    Interesting times ahead

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    Losing another team from their top competition would be a big hit

    All is not rosy in the RL garden but if it was to happen to us we could replace a current SL team with the likes of Widnes, Featherstone, Toulouse etc - decent teams with a good support base and decent stadia.

    In Union, outside of their top league you are looking at teams basically playing on fields. It is very much still a social club format. Also for the likes of Wasps who now have to go right to the bottom of the RU structure there is now really no way back.

    Interesting times ahead
    Yes, their game is based on international matches and they’re streets ahead of us there. Otherwise, they seem to be in a mess and in danger of the possible pool of international players getting smaller. If they start a 12 aside comp, which I think I heard they intend to do, it could get really interesting. 12 aside RU would look much faster than the slow kick tennis matches that often arise with lumbering slow rucks. 12 aside RU could make life tougher in getting RL TV deals perhaps

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    Listening to the premiership rugby CEO on a podcast this week they will be moving to a 10 team top flight anyway. According to them it’s the only way to create a competitive, financially viable product. Obviously they don’t want that decision to be made for them by London Irish going under but there are still plenty of other teams in a bit of a financial hole. Newcastle, Exeter and Harlequins are all struggling.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Listening to the premiership rugby CEO on a podcast this week they will be moving to a 10 team top flight anyway. According to them it’s the only way to create a competitive, financially viable product. Obviously they don’t want that decision to be made for them by London Irish going under but there are still plenty of other teams in a bit of a financial hole. Newcastle, Exeter and Harlequins are all struggling.
    I was about to add that. They wanted to reduce the size of the league anyway but were arguing about who needed cutting.

    I think they aren't too keen on P&R instead going for something more sustainable. There is little sense in losing a big team to add a team playing in a park with a small wooden stand.

    Just like RL, they are taking their recent issues as a wake up call to have a structure that protects the sport financially.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    Yes, their game is based on international matches and they’re streets ahead of us there. Otherwise, they seem to be in a mess and in danger of the possible pool of international players getting smaller. If they start a 12 aside comp, which I think I heard they intend to do, it could get really interesting. 12 aside RU would look much faster than the slow kick tennis matches that often arise with lumbering slow rucks. 12 aside RU could make life tougher in getting RL TV deals perhaps

    Not heard of a 12 a side comp. Presume that is in addition to the current 15a side else would need major changes world wide

    What positions are they dropping - am guessing the entire back row

    Am also guessing that 13 is an evil number at Twickers and there is no way they would drop just the 2 flankers and end up with our game

    Interesting times and in these financially difficult times I do wonder whether both codes will be forced back together at some point soon or whether a 3rd code will emerge based on the views of the financiers and tv companies

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    I've just done a quick Google, Welsh RU Amateurs are playing 12 a side because they're struggling for numbers

    Don't think we'd ever see it for professional leagues, the logic for them and all likelihood in future ourselves, a 10 team league

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    Slightly off topic but I watched a bit of the Barbarians v World VX this afternoon and the commentary team brought up State of Origin being around the corner. They claimed it to be the greatest sporting event on earth - not a place you expect to hear glowing praise for an opposition code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by headtackle View Post
    Not heard of a 12 a side comp. Presume that is in addition to the current 15a side else would need major changes world wide

    What positions are they dropping - am guessing the entire back row

    Am also guessing that 13 is an evil number at Twickers and there is no way they would drop just the 2 flankers and end up with our game

    Interesting times and in these financially difficult times I do wonder whether both codes will be forced back together at some point soon or whether a 3rd code will emerge based on the views of the financiers and tv companies
    No way Union moves to a 12 man comp. That would be a massive change. Anyway that's not the issue with Union. The ball is not in the field of play long enough, scrums in particular take too long (sometimes 5 minutes with re-sets and then end in a penalty anyway); the rules are hard to understand (and I'm an ex Union ref). I used to love Union but have really gone off it since the last World Cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daiwai View Post
    No way Union moves to a 12 man comp. That would be a massive change. Anyway that's not the issue with Union. The ball is not in the field of play long enough, scrums in particular take too long (sometimes 5 minutes with re-sets and then end in a penalty anyway); the rules are hard to understand (and I'm an ex Union ref). I used to love Union but have really gone off it since the last World Cup.
    I’m sure I read somewhere that they’re thinking about a 12 a side made for TV comp a bit like 20/20 cricket to stand alongside the 15 a side game certainly not to replace it. I don’t know how serious they are though. The article was about modernising RU and bringing in a new audience in some way cricket has modernised but not lost test match cricket. I could be mistaken

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    I think a lot of the talk came on the back of the perceived success of The Hundred in Cricket, when all looked rosy. Some investigation has found that it's lost £9m in two years (however this could be closer to £40m if you include the money paid to clubs)

    Introducing a 12s is strange as they have a relatively successful alternative of a 9s competition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabbath Saint View Post
    Slightly off topic but I watched a bit of the Barbarians v World VX this afternoon and the commentary team brought up State of Origin being around the corner. They claimed it to be the greatest sporting event on earth - not a place you expect to hear glowing praise for an opposition code.


    We definitely have our admirers in Union, there is definitely something to be said on how Union does big events too.

    I mean Barbarians vs World XV is basically two exiles teams playing and they get tens of thousands watching it and they all have a great time.

    Obviously both codes are competing for the same fans/sponsors/media attention so there is going to rivalry but there is still a lot of respect going around.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    One Israel Folau was playing today and scored


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    I’m sure I read somewhere that they’re thinking about a 12 a side made for TV comp a bit like 20/20 cricket to stand alongside the 15 a side game certainly not to replace it. I don’t know how serious they are though. The article was about modernising RU and bringing in a new audience in some way cricket has modernised but not lost test match cricket. I could be mistaken
    Interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    We definitely have our admirers in Union, there is definitely something to be said on how Union does big events too.

    I mean Barbarians vs World XV is basically two exiles teams playing and they get tens of thousands watching it and they all have a great time.

    Obviously both codes are competing for the same fans/sponsors/media attention so there is going to rivalry but there is still a lot of respect going around.
    The Barbarians have history - its considered a great honour to be selected. Time and rose tinted spectacles turns minor events into major events. The FA Cup was an old school boys competition to start with.
    Something that could have developed with a Yorks v Lanc "origin game" - just keep plugging away at it and eventually it becomes a major event that people care about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daiwai View Post
    The Barbarians have history - its considered a great honour to be selected. Time and rose tinted spectacles turns minor events into major events. The FA Cup was an old school boys competition to start with.
    Something that could have developed with a Yorks v Lanc "origin game" - just keep plugging away at it and eventually it becomes a major event that people care about.
    Go back far enough and Lancashire v Yorkshire was a massive game. The way things are even the Challenge Cup is becoming less and less important with fewer spectators. Something that was once a packed house that had an impact on the national consciousness because of widespread news coverage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daiwai View Post
    The Barbarians have history - its considered a great honour to be selected. Time and rose tinted spectacles turns minor events into major events. The FA Cup was an old school boys competition to start with.
    Something that could have developed with a Yorks v Lanc "origin game" - just keep plugging away at it and eventually it becomes a major event that people care about.
    We definitely have things like that with the Cup Final and now the grand final. Lancs vs Yorkshire has been done to death and is passed its sell by date imo. If you look at SOO that is looking like it could be on the decline too as International RL seemed to the on the rise in the Pacific.

    I can see Lancs vs Yorkshire working at Championship level as an alternative to the Summer Bash. It could be done as a shopping window for players wanting to get into Superleague and played at more traditional RL grounds.

    Edit: Thinking about it we actually need an England B to play against the likes of France/Wales/Ireland/Scotland. Why not get a part time England team together for the European Championships etc.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daiwai View Post
    No way Union moves to a 12 man comp. That would be a massive change. Anyway that's not the issue with Union. The ball is not in the field of play long enough, scrums in particular take too long (sometimes 5 minutes with re-sets and then end in a penalty anyway); the rules are hard to understand (and I'm an ex Union ref). I used to love Union but have really gone off it since the last World Cup.
    https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/new-...plained-130531 Couple of years ago but shows the way they have been thinking.

    Also shows the potential team set up - drop the flankers and reduce the backs to 6

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    Quote Originally Posted by st. etrigan View Post
    https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/new-...plained-130531 Couple of years ago but shows the way they have been thinking.

    Also shows the potential team set up - drop the flankers and reduce the backs to 6
    It seems to have gone very quiet, perhaps they dropped the idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasty View Post
    It seems to have gone very quiet, perhaps they dropped the idea
    It does yes - but interestingly I found this in an article abd that is the proposed 12 positions

    For the life of me I dont know how a scrum would form with that set up. The one thing that RU are proud of is how pretty their scrums look - this would change all of the dynamics of how each player works in the scrum - shows how far they would go to avoid making it look like copy of a RL scrum
    POSITIONS (reported:
    12 players in a team – six forwards and six backs,

    Prop
    Prop
    Lock
    Lock
    Flanker
    Flanker
    Scrum-half
    Fly-half
    Winger
    Centre
    Winger
    Fullback

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    Quote Originally Posted by st. etrigan View Post
    It does yes - but interestingly I found this in an article abd that is the proposed 12 positions

    For the life of me I dont know how a scrum would form with that set up. The one thing that RU are proud of is how pretty their scrums look - this would change all of the dynamics of how each player works in the scrum - shows how far they would go to avoid making it look like copy of a RL scrum
    POSITIONS (reported:
    12 players in a team – six forwards and six backs,

    Prop
    Prop
    Lock
    Lock
    Flanker
    Flanker
    Scrum-half
    Fly-half
    Winger
    Centre
    Winger
    Fullback
    Yes, that seems daft. Just drop the three loose forwards! Or does that seem too much like rugby league? I think that’s where they should go, but they won’t because it moves union much closer to league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by st. etrigan View Post
    It does yes - but interestingly I found this in an article abd that is the proposed 12 positions

    For the life of me I dont know how a scrum would form with that set up. The one thing that RU are proud of is how pretty their scrums look - this would change all of the dynamics of how each player works in the scrum - shows how far they would go to avoid making it look like copy of a RL scrum
    POSITIONS (reported:
    12 players in a team – six forwards and six backs,

    Prop
    Prop
    Lock
    Lock
    Flanker
    Flanker
    Scrum-half
    Fly-half
    Winger
    Centre
    Winger
    Fullback
    I've found a different connotation:

    Positions:

    Prop
    Hooker
    Prop
    Lock
    Lock
    Flank/No 8
    Scrumhalf
    Flyhalf
    Wing
    Centre
    Wing
    Fullback

    Add another Centre and you have the League Scrum.

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    I mentioned well over 10 years ago that the future might be a hybrid game with 12 or 13 players but Union got stronger in quality of players and quality of funding with the international game so dominating. League got much weaker and the game lost a lot of sporting profile in the UK with an atrocious RFL administration so devoid of expansion ideas in product quality and funding.

    Now the concussion protocols are effecting both codes I can see it having more things to change in the Union game than League. For example lots of upper spine stress in scrums and the majority of rucks are going in head first with much more regularity than league. So could we see a hybrid game back on the menu, would Union and League bosses have the courage to make concessions or will they just keep their heads in the sand until both codes go bankrupt once the compensation claims gain momentum.

    In the situation of both sets of fans how much would they give up in how the game is played and would they come around to have a hybrid game or just wait until the existing codes become sterilised out of existence.

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