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Thread: Union money issues

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    I read an article that suggested some of the clubs were spending 98% of their revenue on wages, to it's gone up from and average of 65% in four years. It's an absolute bonkers statistic.

    I bear no malice towards Union clubs, you can't help but be gutted for their supporters of those clubs.

    There's some suggestion that they'll go to some form of licensing. It just shows outside of Football in this country's, sport is not all roses

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    I read an article that suggested some of the clubs were spending 98% of their revenue on wages, to it's gone up from and average of 65% in four years. It's an absolute bonkers statistic.

    I bear no malice towards Union clubs, you can't help but be gutted for their supporters of those clubs.

    There's some suggestion that they'll go to some form of licensing. It just shows outside of Football in this country's, sport is not all roses
    There are various suggestions on the table to resolve the current issues. Most of the would potentially be very damaging for RL.

    One is licensing, abandoning relegation but having an IPL style buy-in that means the owners have to put down the money upfront. This would likely see a big investment in Union, effectively their 'Super League' moment.

    Another is central contracting with a much reduced salary cap. The suggestion is that cap is tied to the income the club can legitimately generate, with the games big stars and all international players given central contracts. This means England paying the salaries of the top 30ish players. It increases the chances of raids on RL significantly.

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    Got A Season Ticket Laner's Avatar
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    The root of their current financial woes goes all the way back to 1995 when they went professional. It was chaotic and mix of Rupert Murdock pushing the button in the Southern hemisphere, defending players from RL and rich men wanting a stake in something they knew nothing about. They thought they could do better than RL and mimic football without the expertise, experience and crowds behind it. As others have said, it is a small geographic areas where the big clubs play, their gates are comparable to RL and yet their spends on players are almost triple our salary cap. The game is completely financially unsustainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    We were at the England game in Newcastle on Saturday and sat beside us were two Rugby Union scouts from Dorset, they were also taking in the Scotland v Italy game on Sunday.
    Nice to see you back posting on here, Rogues. Hopefully banter back and forth won't slip in to unpleasantness

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    Worcester and Wasps going into administration is already hurting other clubs in the Premiership. Leicester now don’t have a home league game until 27th Nov as their next two were meant to be against Wasps and Worcester. They are also claiming that they are now going to miss out on around £700,000 in anticipated funds from gate receipts, match day sales, etc. Once it starts, it’s a vicious downward spiral.

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    Two points from tonight’s Midlands Today:

    1. The stadium is still operating. The Rugby League World Cup game on Friday is still going ahead there.

    2. A spokesman said the club doesn’t have a benefactor. I don’t know whether he said this in the hope of one coming forward - any Gulf States want a rugby club?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    We were at the England game in Newcastle on Saturday and sat beside us were two Rugby Union scouts from Dorset, they were also taking in the Scotland v Italy game on Sunday.
    Are you sure they weren't just passing the cap around for some coin?

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    Just some info on NRL finances from this year i just read.

    Turnover - $570m
    Profit - $42.8M
    Salary Cap - $11M

    Every club is in profit and an 18th club now lined up.

    Sounds like a strong financial future there.

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    There’s just been an MP (Julian Knight Chair DCMS Select Committee) on Midlands Today saying that rugby fans (by which he means Union fans) are questioning not just whether their local club is safe but whether rugby (again Union) has a future in this country!

    It was another piece about Wasps but they also showed the Worcester stadium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    There’s just been an MP (Julian Knight Chair DCMS Select Committee) on Midlands Today saying that rugby fans (by which he means Union fans) are questioning not just whether their local club is safe but whether rugby (again Union) has a future in this country!

    It was another piece about Wasps but they also showed the Worcester stadium.
    Sadly, it appears they've believed their own hype and think of themselves as a national sport to rival the "girl's game" (copyright Russell Crowe!). As another poster has pointed out, Union is also a fairly regional sport but is hyped to high heaven by the Southern centric BBC and national media. They've fallen for it hook line and sinker and are now suffering the dire consequences of overreaching themselves. Whilst I want RL to grow, I don't want our identity to be destroyed in the dash for cash that has obviously seriously damaged Union. Those clamouring for franchises in New York and elsewhere please take note!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    Sadly, it appears they've believed their own hype and think of themselves as a national sport to rival the "girl's game" (copyright Russell Crowe!). As another poster has pointed out, Union is also a fairly regional sport but is hyped to high heaven by the Southern centric BBC and national media. They've fallen for it hook line and sinker and are now suffering the dire consequences of overreaching themselves. Whilst I want RL to grow, I don't want our identity to be destroyed in the dash for cash that has obviously seriously damaged Union. Those clamouring for franchises in New York and elsewhere please take note!
    Union has a strong amateur presence all over and it’s not going away. It’s at amateur level that they have a nationwide presence. It’s clear that their professional salary cap is far too high and that in going professional some clubs have overreached themselves. Neither they nor we can compete with football in this country nor can either really emulate the NRL, NFL or Aussie Rules for being the most popular sport in a particular country or region. They need a serious re-think if the professional domestic game is to flourish.

    I don’t think the southern media will ever accept that professional club Union is a relatively small sport because the international game is successful.

    PS I get annoyed about the fact that the national news has frequent pieces about club RU whilst ignoring League.
    Last edited by Suttoner; 18th October 2022 at 16:00. Reason: PS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Union has a strong amateur presence all over and it’s not going away. It’s at amateur level that they have a nationwide presence. It’s clear that their professional salary cap is far too high and that in going professional some clubs have overreached themselves. Neither they nor we can compete with football in this country nor can either really emulate the NRL, NFL or Aussie Rules for being the most popular sport in a particular country or region. They need a serious re-think if the professional domestic game is to flourish.

    I don’t think the southern media will ever accept that professional club Union is a relatively small sport because the international game is successful.

    PS I get annoyed about the fact that the national news has frequent pieces about club RU whilst ignoring League.
    Union definitely has national presence at the "amateur" level certainly. I had previously commented regarding their spread nationally but I wasn't clear that I was talking about areas able to sustain a professional side.

    One clear advantage union does have is its low level participation. They also have a much better casual fan base that would either play rugby for a local team, a school or watch the England national side. This is definitely something as a sport Rugby League should be trying to emulate.

    We do seem to have a better history at the elite club level. However, Union does have so consistently well supported clubs. Leicester comes to mind as a club that gets good crowds.

    It is difficult to put values against a lot of these advantages that union has. Where should our focus be in growing the game? National participation? International fan base? School Rugby? Geographical spread of top clubs in England? Presence in the Home Nations? Union is clearly weakened at the moment but this won't last forever. There must be opportunities for League but where are they?
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Union definitely has national presence at the "amateur" level certainly. I had previously commented regarding their spread nationally but I wasn't clear that I was talking about areas able to sustain a professional side.

    One clear advantage union does have is its low level participation. They also have a much better casual fan base that would either play rugby for a local team, a school or watch the England national side. This is definitely something as a sport Rugby League should be trying to emulate.

    We do seem to have a better history at the elite club level. However, Union does have so consistently well supported clubs. Leicester comes to mind as a club that gets good crowds.

    It is difficult to put values against a lot of these advantages that union has. Where should our focus be in growing the game? National participation? International fan base? School Rugby? Geographical spread of top clubs in England? Presence in the Home Nations? Union is clearly weakened at the moment but this won't last forever. There must be opportunities for League but where are they?
    Just on the school rugby front, I was surprised to learn that at some stage schools in St Helens and other Rugby League towns had been more or less compelled by some curriculum change to play Rugby Union and, I think, drop Rugby League. I may have misunderstood what somebody on here posted so IÂ’m not sure of my facts.

    When I was at school, all local schools except Cowley Boys, West Park and Grange Park played Rugby League. Those selective schools played Union. Playing League at school was important because it gave all participants, boys but not girls, an understanding of the game and rules. It helped with participation and being a fan of the, then, semi-professional game.

    I know that schools certainly play Rugby League today. In Newport thereÂ’s a local secondary school called Burton Borough and at the time of the last World Cup in this country they took a couple of coaches down to the semi-final because they were certainly playing Rugby League at that time. I think playing it in school and promoting the amateur game (thereÂ’s a club in Telford) is the way forward, not shoe horning professional clubs into areas were local people have no inherent understanding of the game. IÂ’d qualify that, however, by saying that when a IÂ’ve taken Union fans to Saints theyÂ’ve shown an immediate understanding of certain facets of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Just on the school rugby front, I was surprised to learn that at some stage schools in St Helens and other Rugby League towns had been more or less compelled by some curriculum change to play Rugby Union and, I think, drop Rugby League. I may have misunderstood what somebody on here posted so IÂ’m not sure of my facts.

    When I was at school, all local schools except Cowley Boys, West Park and Grange Park played Rugby League. Those selective schools played Union. Playing League at school was important because it gave all participants, boys but not girls, an understanding of the game and rules. It helped with participation and being a fan of the, then, semi-professional game.

    I know that schools certainly play Rugby League today. In Newport thereÂ’s a local secondary school called Burton Borough and at the time of the last World Cup in this country they took a couple of coaches down to the semi-final because they were certainly playing Rugby League at that time. I think playing it in school and promoting the amateur game (thereÂ’s a club in Telford) is the way forward, not shoe horning professional clubs into areas were local people have no inherent understanding of the game. IÂ’d qualify that, however, by saying that when a IÂ’ve taken Union fans to Saints theyÂ’ve shown an immediate understanding of certain facets of the game.
    Was Grange Park ever selective? Certainly wasn’t from the 1970s onwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Just on the school rugby front, I was surprised to learn that at some stage schools in St Helens and other Rugby League towns had been more or less compelled by some curriculum change to play Rugby Union and, I think, drop Rugby League. I may have misunderstood what somebody on here posted so IÂ’m not sure of my facts.

    When I was at school, all local schools except Cowley Boys, West Park and Grange Park played Rugby League. Those selective schools played Union. Playing League at school was important because it gave all participants, boys but not girls, an understanding of the game and rules. It helped with participation and being a fan of the, then, semi-professional game.

    I know that schools certainly play Rugby League today. In Newport thereÂ’s a local secondary school called Burton Borough and at the time of the last World Cup in this country they took a couple of coaches down to the semi-final because they were certainly playing Rugby League at that time. I think playing it in school and promoting the amateur game (thereÂ’s a club in Telford) is the way forward, not shoe horning professional clubs into areas were local people have no inherent understanding of the game. IÂ’d qualify that, however, by saying that when a IÂ’ve taken Union fans to Saints theyÂ’ve shown an immediate understanding of certain facets of the game.
    I went to Rainford High between 1981-1986 and we had to play union. We asked Mr.Woods the games teacher (big league fan,played for Pilks Recs iirc and got a few of us down there to play ) and our coach why couldn't we play league and he said " I would love to let you,but i'm not allowed to,the powers that be say you can only play union ". It always seemed weird to me that in such a league town you could only play union at school

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Was Grange Park ever selective? Certainly wasn’t from the 1970s onwards.
    Yes it was. It was called a Technical School rather than a Grammar but you had to pass the 11 plus to get in. From what I’ve read on here the 11 plus was dropped in the mid to late 1960s but selection was kept in some form. I failed the 11 plus but transferred from St Cuthbert’s to West Park at 16 with 4 others and someone from Blessed Edmund Campion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    Was Grange Park ever selective? Certainly wasn’t from the 1970s onwards.
    It was in the 60’s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    I went to Rainford High between 1981-1986 and we had to play union. We asked Mr.Woods the games teacher (big league fan,played for Pilks Recs iirc and got a few of us down there to play ) and our coach why couldn't we play league and he said " I would love to let you,but i'm not allowed to,the powers that be say you can only play union ". It always seemed weird to me that in such a league town you could only play union at school
    I’m glad I got that right because in the 1960s the non-selective schools all played League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Union definitely has national presence at the "amateur" level certainly. I had previously commented regarding their spread nationally but I wasn't clear that I was talking about areas able to sustain a professional side.

    One clear advantage union does have is its low level participation. They also have a much better casual fan base that would either play rugby for a local team, a school or watch the England national side. This is definitely something as a sport Rugby League should be trying to emulate.

    We do seem to have a better history at the elite club level. However, Union does have so consistently well supported clubs. Leicester comes to mind as a club that gets good crowds.

    It is difficult to put values against a lot of these advantages that union has. Where should our focus be in growing the game? National participation? International fan base? School Rugby? Geographical spread of top clubs in England? Presence in the Home Nations? Union is clearly weakened at the moment but this won't last forever. There must be opportunities for League but where are they?
    There should be a focus on growing the amount of junior rugby league clubs. I played union growing up as I would have had to travel 45 minutes to Leeds or York to play rugby league. This is less than 20 miles away from the home of Leeds Rhinos and there’s still no junior rugby league available, they’ve only just got an adult league team in the last couple of years. Every town has a rugby union club though, and usually with a junior setup.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    There should be a focus on growing the amount of junior rugby league clubs. I played union growing up as I would have had to travel 45 minutes to Leeds or York to play rugby league. This is less than 20 miles away from the home of Leeds Rhinos and there’s still no junior rugby league available, they’ve only just got an adult league team in the last couple of years. Every town has a rugby union club though, and usually with a junior setup.
    Junior rugby league is on it's last legs even in the heartlands. My lads play in the North West leagues for Warrington based teams and they genuinely played about 8 games each this season, which is probably about average now. The behaviour of the clubs is pathetic, once it gets competitive games are called off for literally any reason. One kid playing for school, one kid playing football, one kid injured, it rained on Thursday, no ref, the first aid lady is away... That's all it takes, getting games played is an absolute nightmare. Once they get a bit older and it's clear who the stronger teams are, clubs won't play them. The fixture lists each week are just lists of walkovers, with one or two games per age group actually being played.

    The RFL need to get into schools and get both the primary and secondary schools playing again. The problem with it at the moment is primary schools don't play, which means only the 'rugby lads' plus a few will play for the secondary schools. Most schools will then quit after one week as they got battered and never play again. Having a functional school system would ensure junior clubs got more uptake and were able to field more teams with all ability levels able to find one appropriate for them.

    Junior clubs should have to fulfil their fixtures too and they need to find a way to ensure that happens. I.e giving funding/coaching/kit/free tickets to the clubs based on their fulfilment, refunding ourleague subs from those fulfilling games etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Junior rugby league is on it's last legs even in the heartlands. My lads play in the North West leagues for Warrington based teams and they genuinely played about 8 games each this season, which is probably about average now. The behaviour of the clubs is pathetic, once it gets competitive games are called off for literally any reason. One kid playing for school, one kid playing football, one kid injured, it rained on Thursday, no ref, the first aid lady is away... That's all it takes, getting games played is an absolute nightmare. Once they get a bit older and it's clear who the stronger teams are, clubs won't play them. The fixture lists each week are just lists of walkovers, with one or two games per age group actually being played.

    The RFL need to get into schools and get both the primary and secondary schools playing again. The problem with it at the moment is primary schools don't play, which means only the 'rugby lads' plus a few will play for the secondary schools. Most schools will then quit after one week as they got battered and never play again. Having a functional school system would ensure junior clubs got more uptake and were able to field more teams with all ability levels able to find one appropriate for them.

    Junior clubs should have to fulfil their fixtures too and they need to find a way to ensure that happens. I.e giving funding/coaching/kit/free tickets to the clubs based on their fulfilment, refunding ourleague subs from those fulfilling games etc.
    We know that union has always tried to get one over us and damage what we are doing. A few years back it was signing any England League player that could be a household name but all this seemed to do was convince junior players they are better off being League juniors then convert over for big money later. Union has done a better job at getting in schools and getting us out of them.

    What you have said seems to fall into this, what percentage is League incompetence and how much is Union cunning I don't know.

    I have never understood why League does not have a real, aggressive, school participation policy. I grew up in Southport and there was no League in schools. There was no anti-League attitude but there was no sort of junior league for us to play in. If the RFL offered equipment and coaching to teachers in these schools suddenly you would have hundreds of kids playing the sport that would usually not have any involvement and it would cost them next to nothing.

    Your other point regarding games getting called off sounds like it could be down to volunteers. A lot of sports love getting volunteers, but you get what you pay for with them. A lot feel like they are owed something for their time and that they can turn up when they fancy, this would seem like the best explanation to the "the first aid lady is away" problem. Some times if you want to have something work properly you need to pay someone to do it properly. Even if it isn't a lot or even if it isn't their main job.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk paulscnthorpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Junior rugby league is on it's last legs even in the heartlands. My lads play in the North West leagues for Warrington based teams and they genuinely played about 8 games each this season, which is probably about average now. The behaviour of the clubs is pathetic, once it gets competitive games are called off for literally any reason. One kid playing for school, one kid playing football, one kid injured, it rained on Thursday, no ref, the first aid lady is away... That's all it takes, getting games played is an absolute nightmare. Once they get a bit older and it's clear who the stronger teams are, clubs won't play them. The fixture lists each week are just lists of walkovers, with one or two games per age group actually being played.

    The RFL need to get into schools and get both the primary and secondary schools playing again. The problem with it at the moment is primary schools don't play, which means only the 'rugby lads' plus a few will play for the secondary schools. Most schools will then quit after one week as they got battered and never play again. Having a functional school system would ensure junior clubs got more uptake and were able to field more teams with all ability levels able to find one appropriate for them.

    Junior clubs should have to fulfil their fixtures too and they need to find a way to ensure that happens. I.e giving funding/coaching/kit/free tickets to the clubs based on their fulfilment, refunding ourleague subs from those fulfilling games etc.
    That's very sad, I'm involved in primary rugby (non competitive) and we've managed about 20 games this year with a couple of festivals in there too.

    On top of that, I know that between Pilks, Haresfinch, Thatto, Blackbrook, Clock Face and Portico, there's probably about 200 kids in our age group

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    It was in the 60’s.
    It was the 70's, I sat the 11 plus in 1975 and was selected to go to Up Holland Grammar (from Haydock) as it was called then. I think there was one more year after mine before it became a 6th form college only and called Winstanley College.

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    In St Helens in the 1970s the 11+ had been shelved. Cowley and West Park then “selected” pupils at 13. So Cowley and West Park had the cream of pupils from the other St Helens schools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    I went to Rainford High between 1981-1986 and we had to play union. We asked Mr.Woods the games teacher (big league fan,played for Pilks Recs iirc and got a few of us down there to play ) and our coach why couldn't we play league and he said " I would love to let you,but i'm not allowed to,the powers that be say you can only play union ". It always seemed weird to me that in such a league town you could only play union at school

    The year behind you started off playing RU, then the big teachers' strike stopped all school teams for about a year. When we started again, Mr Calland (art teacher, ex-player himself and dad of Matt Calland of Bradford 'fame') started an RL side, and the school switched properly to RL at that point. We once had a duel-code challenge against Aspull, who had stuck with RU.
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