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Thread: Grand Final 2022 - Saints V Leeds

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    I think the point is with the game continually getting tougher and tougher with ever advancing sports science, asking players to play as many games as we do is causing us to get to a unsustainable tipping point, leading to more and more players picking up serious injuries, and subsequently the quality of our showcase events dropping due to our elite players being injured. I think we could all agree that we would prefer both sides to be much closer to full strength than they are and the RFL to do more to protect players (including mandatory recovery times between games - playing 2 Easter’s this year was insanity).

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    I think the point is with the game continually getting tougher and tougher with ever advancing sports science, asking players to play as many games as we do is causing us to get to a unsustainable tipping point, leading to more and more players picking up serious injuries, and subsequently the quality of our showcase events dropping due to our elite players being injured. I think we could all agree that we would prefer both sides to be much closer to full strength than they are and the RFL to do more to protect players (including mandatory recovery times between games - playing 2 Easter’s this year was insanity).
    They’ve already binned double game weekends from next season haven’t they?


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    If Hopoate isn’t fit I’d go with

    FB. Bennison
    RW. Makinson
    RC. Hurrell
    LC. Matautia
    LW. Percival
    SO. Lomax
    SH. Welsby
    PR. Paasi
    HK. Roby
    PR. Lees
    SR. Batch
    SR. Sironen
    LF. Bell

    SUB. Lussick
    SUB. Davies
    SUB. Wingfield
    SUB. LMS


    If he is fit I’d go with (Hopoate slotting in at FB to keep him out of the defensive line as much as possible)

    FB. Hopoate
    RW. Makinson
    RC. Hurrell
    LC. Percival
    LW. Bennison
    SO. Lomax
    SH. Welsby
    PR. Paasi
    HK. Roby
    PR. Lees
    SR. Batch
    SR. Sironen
    LF. Matautia

    SUB. Lussick
    SUB. Bell
    SUB. Wingfield
    SUB. LMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by complex.matt View Post
    If Hopoate isn’t fit I’d go with

    FB. Bennison
    RW. Makinson
    RC. Hurrell
    LC. Matautia
    LW. Percival
    SO. Lomax
    SH. Welsby
    PR. Paasi
    HK. Roby
    PR. Lees
    SR. Batch
    SR. Sironen
    LF. Bell

    SUB. Lussick
    SUB. Davies
    SUB. Wingfield
    SUB. LMS


    If he is fit I’d go with (Hopoate slotting in at FB to keep him out of the defensive line as much as possible)

    FB. Hopoate
    RW. Makinson
    RC. Hurrell
    LC. Percival
    LW. Bennison
    SO. Lomax
    SH. Welsby
    PR. Paasi
    HK. Roby
    PR. Lees
    SR. Batch
    SR. Sironen
    LF. Matautia

    SUB. Lussick
    SUB. Bell
    SUB. Wingfield
    SUB. LMS
    I think they are pretty much the likely line up options assuming Knowles doesn’t get off. I think Bell will start at loose forward over Mata’utia though. Bell has the intensity and work rate to take up that Knowles enforcer role in defence alongside Lees, also has the hands to take the ball to the line and pass.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    I would have Sironen at 13 to replace Knowles he would add more punch in the middle with being an effective prop missing. Matautia to go back to his usual left edge role were he built up an understanding with Percival before both got injured. Batchelor is usual right edge supporting Hurrell in both offence and defence.

    Bell to come off the bench against a tiring Leeds defence later in the first half. Wingfield and LMS bench props provide quite a bit of mobility, but maybe Woolf will have Lees doing some long minutes whilst he is on form at the moment.

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    Why are people suggesting that Sironen or Matautia play at 13? They've not played a single game there all season and we are choosing a GF to try this. Its barmy.

    Its very very simple, Bell to replace Knowles at 13, something that we've done a lot this season. Lussick to come on if Bell needs spelling and Roby to 13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magic superbeetle View Post
    I think the point is with the game continually getting tougher and tougher with ever advancing sports science, asking players to play as many games as we do is causing us to get to a unsustainable tipping point, leading to more and more players picking up serious injuries, and subsequently the quality of our showcase events dropping due to our elite players being injured. I think we could all agree that we would prefer both sides to be much closer to full strength than they are and the RFL to do more to protect players (including mandatory recovery times between games - playing 2 Easter’s this year was insanity).
    I think we’re seeing a bit of a peak at the minute (I hope it’s the peak, anyway) given 2020 was backloaded to the end of the calendar year through covid and then 2021 was a short turnaround as we thought we had a World Cup, only to do the same in 2022, though who decided 27 regular season games and a double game weekend within fifty days of the World Cup needs shooting.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Mata'utia on the bench for me if Hopoate is fit. He is carrying an injury anyway and no disrespect to Royle but our bench isn't the strongest.

    Although I wouldn't be surprised if Woolf swaps Hopoate with Bennison and leaves the rest, based on this quote

    "Put those four together, when you are under pressure and trying to get off your own tryline, those four do it better than anyone else and having those four back in the team was a big difference for us today."

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    For me our two biggest problems this year have been chopping and changing on the edges, which has caused problems with our defence, and a relatively blunt attack, caused also by changes on the edges but mostly by the absence of Dodd and Hopoate.

    For those reasons I’d be against any solution which involves moving around three-quarters and/or second-rowers, which would introduce yet another new combination on the edge. For me the best option is to field the same back line as last week but with Hopoate at full back if fit and Bell at 13. I wouldn’t normally advocate a back on the bench in a big game like this, but as we’re more or less through our top-line forward depth, as having Sione at centre gives us a bit of flexibility, and as we might want to plan for the possibility of Hopoate not getting through the 80, I’d give Bennison that last bench spot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Why are people suggesting that Sironen or Matautia play at 13? They've not played a single game there all season and we are choosing a GF to try this. Its barmy.

    Its very very simple, Bell to replace Knowles at 13, something that we've done a lot this season. Lussick to come on if Bell needs spelling and Roby to 13.
    We need a lot of size and power in the first quarter with the absence of Walmsley and Knowles, Sironen would provide that. in my opinion Bell is a bit light to get us on the front foot straight away in what will be a very tight opening heavy guns quarter,

    Bell is an open field runner and doesn't punch big holes in the defensive line. I don't recall Bell being a starting player, will be interesting to see in a few days what Woolf decides on his starting 13. The only concern I have is Matautia's discipline and will be favourite for the yellow card, hopefully he has been given instructions to avoid that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    For me our two biggest problems this year have been chopping and changing on the edges, which has caused problems with our defence, and a relatively blunt attack, caused also by changes on the edges but mostly by the absence of Dodd and Hopoate.

    For those reasons I’d be against any solution which involves moving around three-quarters and/or second-rowers, which would introduce yet another new combination on the edge. For me the best option is to field the same back line as last week but with Hopoate at full back if fit and Bell at 13. I wouldn’t normally advocate a back on the bench in a big game like this, but as we’re more or less through our top-line forward depth, as having Sione at centre gives us a bit of flexibility, and as we might want to plan for the possibility of Hopoate not getting through the 80, I’d give Bennison that last bench spot.
    Thats exactly the issue with playing Hopoate. There's no doubt he's a classy player and offers more in attack than Bennison however there's a very high chance he doesn't finish the game. That then massively influences the interchanges working with 16 and not 17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Thats exactly the issue with playing Hopoate. There's no doubt he's a classy player and offers more in attack than Bennison however there's a very high chance he doesn't finish the game. That then massively influences the interchanges working with 16 and not 17.
    It's definitely a gamble, and I'd be nervous about it. But I think we've looked so much better with him at 1 that it's worth the risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyweb2602 View Post
    Hopoate
    Makinson
    Hurrell
    Matautia
    Percival
    Lomax
    Welsby
    Lees
    Roby
    Paasi
    Batchelor
    Sironen
    Bell

    Lussick wingfield lms bennison.

    Lightweight bench but that would be our best starting line up. Matautia to move into the pack later in the game.
    If hopoate is fit
    Hopoate
    Makinson
    Hurrell
    Percy
    Bennison
    Lomax
    Welsby
    Lees
    Roby
    Paasi
    Batch
    Sironen
    Mata’utia

    Lms
    Bell
    Lussick
    Wingfield

    But me personally I would think about starting LMS in the pack just because the damage paasi does off the bench is frightening for the opposition and can bring a huge lift to the whole team

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    We need a lot of size and power in the first quarter with the absence of Walmsley and Knowles, Sironen would provide that. in my opinion Bell is a bit light to get us on the front foot straight away in what will be a very tight opening heavy guns quarter,

    Bell is an open field runner and doesn't punch big holes in the defensive line. I don't recall Bell being a starting player, will be interesting to see in a few days what Woolf decides on his starting 13. The only concern I have is Matautia's discipline and will be favourite for the yellow card, hopefully he has been given instructions to avoid that.
    I get where you're coming from but I think the addition of Percy and Makinson over recent weeks has provided a lot more go forward. If it was a team like Catalans I'd maybe go with Sironen but Bell can hold his own with the Leeds pack, particularly with his defence, and offers a lot more skill in attack.

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    I just hope if Hopoate does play and doesn’t manage to finish the game we get the shredder out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Thats exactly the issue with playing Hopoate. There's no doubt he's a classy player and offers more in attack than Bennison however there's a very high chance he doesn't finish the game. That then massively influences the interchanges working with 16 and not 17.
    It is a gamble but I feel that if we had a creative FB last week we could have stuck a load of points on Salford in the first half and effectively bury them. Maybe he only needs to play half an hour! (A bit facetious, but you get my drift)

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    Assuming Hopoate isn’t fit.

    Bennison
    Makinson
    Hurrell
    Percival/Matautia
    Matautia/Percival

    Welsby
    Lomax

    Lees
    Roby
    Paasi
    Bachelor
    Sironen
    Wingfield

    Bell
    Scarsbrook
    Lussick
    Royle

    I think we need Percival attacking at centre when we are in attack. Matautia doesn't have the hands or finesse for centre.
    I think our gameplan should be start with our best 13 and come out 100 miles an hour and try to get some points on the board. If we can get a lead late in the game we can defend it with Bell and Scarsbrook tackling for their lives off the bench. We need Lees and Paasi to have the games of their lives playing big big minutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Assuming Hopoate isn’t fit.

    Bennison
    Makinson
    Hurrell
    Percival/Matautia
    Matautia/Percival

    Welsby
    Lomax

    Lees
    Roby
    Paasi
    Bachelor
    Sironen
    Wingfield

    Bell
    Scarsbrook
    Lussick
    Royle

    I think we need Percival attacking at centre when we are in attack. Matautia doesn't have the hands or finesse for centre.
    I think our gameplan should be start with our best 13 and come out 100 miles an hour and try to get some points on the board. If we can get a lead late in the game we can defend it with Bell and Scarsbrook tackling for their lives off the bench. We need Lees and Paasi to have the games of their lives playing big big minutes.
    I posted a few days ago the same thing. Percy has to be in the centre when we are attacking in their half, he needs more ball than he got last week. Re Lees having the game of his life, I thought he did that last week.

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    Whilst I feel Benninsons development has been impressive as a full back, I think he has been found wanting when playing on the wing, would be worried if he was picked as winger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I posted a few days ago the same thing. Percy has to be in the centre when we are attacking in their half, he needs more ball than he got last week. Re Lees having the game of his life, I thought he did that last week.
    He did, Belgian. He needs to do it again! We are lacking big men on the bench
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    I just hope if Hopoate does play and doesn’t manage to finish the game we get the shredder out.
    Just as a matter of interest, last season people were calling Paasi “Passive” on here and look how he has been this season…

    Hurrell was a stinker of a signing said some, and look how he’s improved.

    Of course I could be wrong but maybe an off season with our strength and fitness coaches will make him fitter for next season because there’s a player under those bandages, without a doubt…..
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    Quote Originally Posted by djh1972 View Post
    I get where you're coming from but I think the addition of Percy and Makinson over recent weeks has provided a lot more go forward. If it was a team like Catalans I'd maybe go with Sironen but Bell can hold his own with the Leeds pack, particularly with his defence, and offers a lot more skill in attack.
    I think I'm with you. If anything we might need his mobility in defence as I think Leeds will play more of an expansive game. We've got enough go forward on the pitch including right across the backs. With Bell we know what we'll get and remeber the last time we started a game he was man of the match. If you put Sironen or Matautia there it's likely they'd do a good job but it's not their natural role and could just cause a bit of confusion in attack

    I also think its full back or nothing for Bennison. I agree that he's come up a bit short on the wing for us and we don't want any chinks in the armour

    I'm not sure how it can be achieved given the above but if we had Hopoate at full back and Percival at centre that gives us more strike than we've had for 4 months. For that to happen Bennison has to play on the wing, that's the conundrum for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    Whilst I feel Benninsons development has been impressive as a full back, I think he has been found wanting when playing on the wing, would be worried if he was picked as winger.
    100% this.

    This is why I'd keep Bennison at full back and have Hopoate on the wing if both were to play.

    It's a tough call for the coach. If we hadn't lost Knowles then it would be simple for me. Bennison or Hopoate for full back and leave 4 and 5 as it was on Saturday, but we're a forward light now and Sione needs to move forward if we have that extra fit back.

    I'm with Reacher in that I don't see the sense in putting Sione or Curtis at loose either. For me, I'd be looking at Jake Wingfield, who's been the fill in there before and I don't see much sense in pitching players into positions they haven't played all season when we don't have to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Just as a matter of interest, last season people were calling Paasi “Passive” on here and look how he has been this season…

    Hurrell was a stinker of a signing said some, and look how he’s improved.

    Of course I could be wrong but maybe an off season with our strength and fitness coaches will make him fitter for next season because there’s a player under those bandages, without a doubt…..
    Passi did show some good signs til he got Covid to be fair

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    Just watched the Woolf interview and he said Norman and Simm have a chance of coming back into the team alongside Hopoate. If Norman can come back in I would be very tempted to go

    Hopoate
    Makinson Hurrell Mata'utia Percival
    Welsby Lomax
    Paasi Roby Lees
    Sironen Batchelor
    Wingfield

    Lussick Bell LMS Norman

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