After the Cunningham episode there might be a case for Wellens going out further down the league first to prove his credentials as a Head Coach. And of course that's if he wants to go down that path
After the Cunningham episode there might be a case for Wellens going out further down the league first to prove his credentials as a Head Coach. And of course that's if he wants to go down that path
For me I don't think we would repeat that type of episode, a lot of saints players from that 2006 era had big ego's and Cunningham was one of them and got the coaching role too early. Wellens is a bit more level headed been working with the England set up for quite a while now and has worked with coaches who were better than Brown in Holbrook and Woolf.
We also have to factor in that Roby makes the job as coach a bit easier and he is very unlikely to be available next season.
I was thinking more of Sean Long as attacking coach its all down how it fits with the coaching set up. Longy fitted in well with Salford but struggled with the Leeds set up, Longy's time with Cunningham was a bad one, Longy's time with Holbrook a good one. I can't see Wellens becoming so blinkered like Cunningham in not using his coaching team.
Roby seems to do all his "talking" on the pitch not sure if he would feel comfortable in a coaching capacity, seems to be looking at the sporting science route.
Do you not think Longs time with those two coaches is purely down to the coaches themselves?
Cunningham a poor coach, Holbrook a good one.
Long also left before we won anything under Holbrook as well so not sure he should have any credit in the bank for that.
In general, not just in reply to your post, I don't get the interest in getting Long back.
If you're giving it to Wellens then he needs an experienced assistant, maybe even someone who has been head coach.
I'll be honest the Cunningham era has worried me to the point I'd be disappointed if Wellens is the next coach. I think to be the St Helens coach you need to have shown something away from the club first but maybe I'm in the minority.
On reflection I think Woolf will do another year here for a very practical reason(s).
Pre Season starts in Nov for the NRL.
He will still be involved with Tonga at the WC in Nov.
The current clubs on offer are basket cases Wests/Dogs.
Dolphins are struggling to recruit and Sam Burgess is lurking in the shadows.
The cut over between WC and starting preseason does not allow time to settle in.
Hence I think he will stay.
Discussions regarding Cunningham V Wellens are interesting but it is like comapring apples to oranges.
A view on Wellens can be made and should be made on him rather than he might be another cunningham as coach.
Agreed on all the Woolf points. Johnny Davidson, the RL journo, said he was going home the other day so I hope he's wrong.
As you say it's not the right time for him to try and start an NRL job with a shortened pre-season and lack of prep time due to Tonga involvement.
According to the NRL 360 podcast this morning GOULD is talking to KW re the Dogs job
Longy did an excellent job at Salford as an attacking coach, Cunningham took all that away from him giving him a defensive coach role because he wanted a middles sty;e game. When Cunningham was sacked I remember those 3 games before Holbrook came to the UK we changed to an attacking team, I think Holbrook got an easy transition watching Hull get beat 45-0 on the work Long and Lolesi did prep wise.
In my opinion the Holbrook/Long set up was a good one but we struggled in those really big games, it was the players themselves after losing in the CC against Warrington that won the Grand Final for Holbrook, that was pure player determination to not lose a grand final. That player determination has been evident for a couple of seasons now and Woolf has used all the postives out of it to put this team above everyone else.
I saw that on the NRL 360 show yesterday - and this morning they had another journo saying he is in talks with the Warriors. In truth I think they know about as much / as little as us but as they are getting paid to provide "scoops" they feel obliged to say something. It's a bit like the Premier League transfer gossip columns in the British press - can you imagine if those guys only got paid on how accurate their stories were
I was told a few weeks ago that he has signed for the Bulldogs next year.
I hope this isn’t the case of course but when you look at their squad and more to come next year- Kikau for example then they should be doing a lot better than what they are.
Plus it’s the attraction of being in Sydney too.
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Would be a shame to lose him to the Dogs, who are an absolute basket case of a club but he’d be back in Australia.
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I can't remember his time at Salford so I can't comment on that.
You are right that Long can't be judged in the KC era on reflection as, as you say, he was in charge of the defence for some ludicrous reason.
The gap between KC and JH gets mentioned positively on here sometimes but we got absolutely battered at Cas in the challenge cup and by Warrington away. We even lost to Widnes away! We beat Cas on easter Monday which is known as a lottery round after backing up and then beat Leigh.
I'm not sure anyone covered themselves in glory in that period in between. The week before the 45-0 we lost 40-18 at Wire conceding 5 second half tries, I'm not sure it was building towards a good performance, I'd say it was more just new manager bounce and a bit of luck.
Obviously I will add Long was not solely to blame for that spell but just find it hard to give him any plaudits for that.
I think Wellens and Long would be a bad decision but I do accept that's just my personal opinion and I could be a fool...
Can't think of a time in recent history when there's been three head coaching spots available over there at the same time, plus a high profile assistant role at the new franchise.
If it was a choice between Bulldogs, Warriors or Wests, it'd be the Dogs I'd want to go to as head coach. They've got the best roster at the moment, plus Kikau and Mahoney signed for 2023. I know Wests have Koroisau and Papali'i signed for next year, but still think Bulldogs look stronger on paper. They hammered Wests this past weekend too. Not seen anything on the Warriors recruitment plans moving forwards and they may have players wanting to leave, now they've gone back to NZ.
In a results driven business, the better roster you have to pick from the better chance you have of being successful I think.
Last edited by Mike Stephenson; 22nd June 2022 at 13:18.
*Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE
I cant imagine that Wellens would be as bad as Cunningham - he would be inheriting a better squad than KC did for a start - and Wellens seems more of a level headed character than the ego that KC had. Long and Lohlesi were inexperienced assistants too, which cant have helped, so if Wellens is to get it I hope we get an experienced head alongside him to support.
In fairness to KC, the whole thing wasn't entirely his fault. Recruitment was shocking around that period, a lot of which must have come from on high; and McManus gave KC a contract renewal which heaped a load more pressure onto an already bad situation.
[QUOTE=Mike Stephenson;848230]Can't think of a time in recent history when there's been three head coaching spots available over there at the same time, plus a high profile assistant role at the new franchise.
If it was a choice between Bulldogs, Warriors or Wests, it'd be the Dogs I'd want to go to as head coach. They've got the best roster at the moment, plus Kikau and Mahoney signed for 2023. I know Wests have Koroisau and Papali'i signed for next year, but still think Bulldogs look stronger on paper. They hammered Wests this past weekend too.
Totally agree (and they battered the Eels the week before). I think Woolf is the exact type of coach they would like. They have some cracking players who can score a lot of points on their day, but they need the determination and resilience that Woolf has proven he can provide.
The rumours earlier this year of Phil Gould being too involved with the club and the Head Coach’s work would be enough to make me think again, no matter how good the roster is. Kikau also come out recently citing Barrett as a key reason for joining the Bulldogs, so that’s not exactly a positive message you want from a major signing.
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Personally don't think Wellens should be considered at all without first having gained some direct experience as a first team head coach. Agree he's learning from some good people like Woolf and Holbrook, but being an assistant is not the same as being the head coach.
I ate a tuna sandwich on my first day!
NEVER WRITE OFF THE SAINTS
I just think the Aussie game is built differently (just my opinion) for players and then coaches to succeed. The grass roots for players coming through and then coaches being developed helps them to succeed more either over there or here. It's not our national game, I don't think there is enough exposure for our players and coaches to get the best out of what we have here. Small catchment areas, not a lot of quality players coming through, nowhere near enough players or coaches going to Australia in order to gain experience and a different perspective/tactics of the game etc.
Again, just my opinion, I think it would work better for the likes of Long, KC, Wellens etc, to have spent a few years at a championship or lower level SL club before taking a job at the top clubs.
I ate a tuna sandwich on my first day!
It is so hard for us fans to not be caught up in the romance of Wellens being the head coach of a successful Saints team and as much as McManus and Rush are astute businessmen who don't let their hearts rule their head, there must be an element of that in their minds too. Let's be honest it is what dreams of made of - a local lad and club legend going on to win trophies as head coach.
If you look at the pros and cons - Wellens knows the club and the players inside out, there wouldn't be a risk of him being homesick and/or eyeing up a NRL job, he knows the competition, the opposition, the area, the fans. He would have the instant respect of the players at the club. It's literally just the fact it his first job that would go against him.
You don't often get it in Rugby League but just imagine him in charge for the next 10 years and doing something similar to what Ferguson did at Man Utd in terms of the number of trophies and having that longevity in the job. It's all set up for him to have a long-lasting period of success at Saints and for me (easy to say I know) the potential rewards of having him in charge are worth the risk. I trust the club to make the call in terms of if/when Wellens is the man for the job but should Woolf leave after this season then he has to be frontrunner surely.
Last edited by The Yellow Giraffe; 22nd June 2022 at 16:08.
NEVER WRITE OFF THE SAINTS