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Thread: England Squad vs France

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    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieVonEagle View Post
    Was at a Q and A the other day and Wane brought up McMeeken quite a few times as an example of elite players that he wasn't happy with when it comes to basic things, in particular tackle technique and initial contact in his case (I think Mike Cooper was another). He was particularly scathing of his GF performance, making poor 1st contact and being forced to "cheat" (Wane's words) by slowing the ruck with hands on the ball resulting in penalties to the opposition. If he could tackle properly, he could be dominant in the tackle and wouldn't have to try and cheat to be dominant etc. It was part of a wider topic of players at all levels in this country not being able to do the basics of rugby to the expected standard.

    On a plus note, when asked who has impressed him the most at England training last week he said Jonny Lomax. Said he is an incredible player and hadn't made a single mistake and when him, Knowles and Walmsley tipped up (obviously saints arrived late to the camp due to the GF) the quality of the training sessions improved massively. Big compliment from Mr wigan himself.

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    Yes McMeeken can't tackle, he would get shown up at a higher level. Unfortunately you can say the same about McShane, especially with his goal line defense.

    I don't think Wane is an idiot, he can spot the difference between a good player and a poor one and he isn't going to pick a poor Wigan player over a good Saints player. The only problem is he is taking over from the best coach in the world for the last 30 years. If Wayne Bennett can't make this set of players look good then I don't think anyone can.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Yes McMeeken can't tackle, he would get shown up at a higher level. Unfortunately you can say the same about McShane, especially with his goal line defense.

    I don't think Wane is an idiot, he can spot the difference between a good player and a poor one and he isn't going to pick a poor Wigan player over a good Saints player. The only problem is he is taking over from the best coach in the world for the last 30 years. If Wayne Bennett can't make this set of players look good then I don't think anyone can.
    I think Wane always gets the best from his players and although I didn't enjoy the Wigan playing style when he was there you were always convinced they'd die for the cause. As for Bennett, he wasn't interested or invested. He took the money and used his position solely to scout out talent for the NRL. An absolute disaster for England in every way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Yes McMeeken can't tackle, he would get shown up at a higher level. Unfortunately you can say the same about McShane, especially with his goal line defense.

    I don't think Wane is an idiot, he can spot the difference between a good player and a poor one and he isn't going to pick a poor Wigan player over a good Saints player. The only problem is he is taking over from the best coach in the world for the last 30 years. If Wayne Bennett can't make this set of players look good then I don't think anyone can.
    Wayne Bennett may be the best coach of the past 30 years, but when it came to England it looked like he didnt care, he picked imbalanced squads and had to play people out of position because of it, at least with Wane you know he cares, its easier to get more out of players when you are putting more in as a coach.

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    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Wayne Bennett may be the best coach of the past 30 years, but when it came to England it looked like he didnt care, he picked imbalanced squads and had to play people out of position because of it, at least with Wane you know he cares, its easier to get more out of players when you are putting more in as a coach.
    I don't think there is much proof that Bennett didn't care. I know a lot of people, including myself, don't like flooding the squad with Australian ringers. David Waite made that mistake as well. Guys like Blake Austin, Chris Heighington, Chris McQueen, Tulsen Tollett, Lachlan Coote, Jackson Hastings just are not the answer. Once a coach takes that short cut his days are numbered.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Yes McMeeken can't tackle, he would get shown up at a higher level. Unfortunately you can say the same about McShane, especially with his goal line defense.

    I don't think Wane is an idiot, he can spot the difference between a good player and a poor one and he isn't going to pick a poor Wigan player over a good Saints player. The only problem is he is taking over from the best coach in the world for the last 30 years. If Wayne Bennett can't make this set of players look good then I don't think anyone can.
    Wayne Bennett picked Blake Austin on the wing for GB.

    His squad was a farce long before it left these shores and the performances mirrored that farce.

    He was a disaster.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    I don't think there is much proof that Bennett didn't care. I know a lot of people, including myself, don't like flooding the squad with Australian ringers. David Waite made that mistake as well. Guys like Blake Austin, Chris Heighington, Chris McQueen, Tulsen Tollett, Lachlan Coote, Jackson Hastings just are not the answer. Once a coach takes that short cut his days are numbered.
    I think there is enough proof he didnt care, the squads he picked, especially the lions squad just prior to him leaving screamed he didnt care, he took 6 halfbacks and 3 wingers and had to play a half on the wing because of it. He parachuted aging players from the NRL because he didnt know anything about players over here since he was a part time coach with a full time job in the NRL, England was an afterthought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieVonEagle View Post
    Was at a Q and A the other day and Wane brought up McMeeken quite a few times as an example of elite players that he wasn't happy with when it comes to basic things, in particular tackle technique and initial contact in his case (I think Mike Cooper was another). He was particularly scathing of his GF performance, making poor 1st contact and being forced to "cheat" (Wane's words) by slowing the ruck with hands on the ball resulting in penalties to the opposition. If he could tackle properly, he could be dominant in the tackle and wouldn't have to try and cheat to be dominant etc. It was part of a wider topic of players at all levels in this country not being able to do the basics of rugby to the expected standard.

    On a plus note, when asked who has impressed him the most at England training last week he said Jonny Lomax. Said he is an incredible player and hadn't made a single mistake and when him, Knowles and Walmsley tipped up (obviously saints arrived late to the camp due to the GF) the quality of the training sessions improved massively. Big compliment from Mr wigan himself.

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    That's really interesting - although I'm surporsed he's been so public in calling out the deficiencies of some players
    I f*cking hate wi*an.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    That's really interesting - although I'm surporsed he's been so public in calling out the deficiencies of some players
    Tbh after like the 3rd time of mentioning him he laughed and said "I feel like I'm picking on McMeeken here, I'm not doing it on purpose, it's just because the GF was quite recent and in that grand final he was doing lots of little things wrong and I expect better from an elite player", or similar words.

    He wasn't full on calling him or anything, like I said the main topic was how kids come through from community clubs not being able to do the basics well, get picked up by academy's, get 1st team contracts etc. and some even go on to represent country...and a lot of the fundamental issues (1st contact in D, catch and pass, draw the man etc.) never get fixed along the way.

    A good example was Cooper, Wane said at the England camp he kept getting his feet positioning wrong when making 1st contact and so he went over to talk to him about it and Cooper was baffled and didn't really know what Wane was on about. He said something like " you mean to tell me you're 31-32 yrs old playing at the highest level and nobody has ever told you your foot positioning is all wrong when tackling?"

    It was pretty funny though, before he told that story he said "Mike won't mind me saying this; actually I couldn't care less if he does"!

    I think what Wane wants is a surge of development in grass roots coaching to improve the standards of community rugby in England, hopefully creating more developed stars in the future. Makes good sense to me, and I don't think anybody can argue with his passion for this England job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieVonEagle View Post
    Tbh after like the 3rd time of mentioning him he laughed and said "I feel like I'm picking on McMeeken here, I'm not doing it on purpose, it's just because the GF was quite recent and in that grand final he was doing lots of little things wrong and I expect better from an elite player", or similar words.

    He wasn't full on calling him or anything, like I said the main topic was how kids come through from community clubs not being able to do the basics well, get picked up by academy's, get 1st team contracts etc. and some even go on to represent country...and a lot of the fundamental issues (1st contact in D, catch and pass, draw the man etc.) never get fixed along the way.

    A good example was Cooper, Wane said at the England camp he kept getting his feet positioning wrong when making 1st contact and so he went over to talk to him about it and Cooper was baffled and didn't really know what Wane was on about. He said something like " you mean to tell me you're 31-32 yrs old playing at the highest level and nobody has ever told you your foot positioning is all wrong when tackling?"

    It was pretty funny though, before he told that story he said "Mike won't mind me saying this; actually I couldn't care less if he does"!

    I think what Wane wants is a surge of development in grass roots coaching to improve the standards of community rugby in England, hopefully creating more developed stars in the future. Makes good sense to me, and I don't think anybody can argue with his passion for this England job.

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    That’s fascinating. We’ve often heard that a big reason we’re behind Aus is the size of our player pool, but clearly it’s not just that. It’s seemed to me for a while that a big difference is the technical standards between our players and theirs, and Wayne’s making it clear that the reason for that is coaching standards. Good that he’s identifying this as an issue (among many) that needs to be addressed.

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    I was listing to Shaun Wane on a the Wilkin/Flanagan show and another such like, his technical details and ability to spot them are very good.
    One was a golden point victory where the team that won made numerous mistakes in the build up to the successful DG, the passing from dummy half, the angles the forwards ran and the lack of blockers on the final act. I thought if he was not happy with victory and found so many faults in the win, that is what made him a coaching success at Wigan, the strive to constantly test and better his players.
    The school of thought that halfbacks (or pivots since 2010 how did that get in unnoticed) make the best coaches is not always the case. You often hear Barry Mac exasperated that players do not use the magic thumb when off loading or carrying the ball with a different grip that allows an accurate offload. Years ago Mike McLennan spoke in the St Helens Star column that Alan Hunte used to go into contact with the wrong knee and that may have caused a few of his problems, once that was solved he regularly burst tackles instead of his joints. Identifying and solving player deficiencies is something most of us think is done at junior/academy level there seems to be as much work needed at youth rugby nowadays.

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    I see Wane has appointed his goon mate Bateman as captain, for me he is far too selfish to take that role. Lomax is a better communicator and likely to be on the pitch more, by way of minutes wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I see Wane has appointed his goon mate Bateman as captain, for me he is far too selfish to take that role. Lomax is a better communicator and likely to be on the pitch more, by way of minutes wise.
    Yes, I think so to. JL a much moreexperienced player.
    When I first saw the England team it was on my phone; the C next to Batemans name being small I mistook for a pound sign. I thought they were taking the mick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I see Wane has appointed his goon mate Bateman as captain, for me he is far too selfish to take that role. Lomax is a better communicator and likely to be on the pitch more, by way of minutes wise.
    I don't think it matters who's captain, or even playing in this match. As long as our best players are playing in their best positions in the games that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Yes, I think so to. JL a much moreexperienced player.
    When I first saw the England team it was on my phone; the C next to Batemans name being small I mistook for a pound sign. I thought they were taking the mick.
    A rather large error of judgement I feel. Bateman is too much of a loose canon, rather like making Jake Connor skipper, not sensible. The best captains are understated and go about their roles inconspcuously, like Robes. No hysterical theatrics, yet hugely respected. Not sure Bateman currently demands too much respect, or could br relied upon to be a cool head in a crisis.

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    Personally I'm not a fan of a captain being in the backs, Bateman has had a poor season but he has been a top player and is probably well respected by the team so I don't see that being an issue

    Going forward I can see Knowles taking that mantle at club level and at national level (even if he is not sure if he is welsh or English

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    Quote Originally Posted by The booze hound View Post
    I don't think it matters who's captain, or even playing in this match. As long as our best players are playing in their best positions in the games that matter.
    It shouldn’t matter in terms of the result no but captaincy really does matter in terms of culture, morale, discipline, motivation.

    I find it baffling Bateman has been selected. He’s not had a great season and he’s certainly not someone I consider to be a leader. Being a captain you need to lead by example, on and off the field, setting a precedent. You’d have to look at the Saints players who lead by example with their actions, mindset and culture surely.

    Atleast he’s not selected Knowles at prop again.

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    [QUOTE=EddieVonEagle;836491]Was at a Q and A the other day and Wane brought up McMeeken quite a few times as an example of elite players that he wasn't happy with when it comes to basic things, in particular tackle technique and initial contact in his case (I think Mike Cooper was another). He was particularly scathing of his GF performance, making poor 1st contact and being forced to "cheat" (Wane's words) by slowing the ruck with hands on the ball resulting in penalties to the opposition. If he could tackle properly, he could be dominant in the tackle and wouldn't have to try and cheat to be dominant etc. It was part of a wider topic of players at all levels in this country not being able to do the basics of rugby to the expected standard.

    On a plus note, when asked who has impressed him the most at England training last week he said Jonny Lomax. Said he is an incredible player and hadn't made a single mistake and when him, Knowles and Walmsley tipped up (obviously saints arrived late to the camp due to the GF) the quality of the training sessions improved massively. Big compliment from Mr wigan himself.

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    I think Wane is a decent coach and understands the game and players well. He'll never be popular on here (and why would he be?) but he'll do a good job for england

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    Wane wants to do well for England but he's picked the captain there with his heart. A wiganer was always going to be captain.

    I for one don't give a hoot about internationals just hope Saints get no injury's?

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    Hardaker in there and Bateman as captain tells you everything you need to know about the validity of that England squad. Get the NRL contingent plus the likes of Tomkins, Percival, Clark, Connor etc back in and it looks like a decent team. The Aussies will still be overwhelming favourites but they always are and we were an ankle tap away from winning the last WC final.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    Wane wants to do well for England but he's picked the captain there with his heart. A wiganer was always going to be captain.

    I for one don't give a hoot about internationals just hope Saints get no injury's?
    Being captain must mean the first name on the team sheet & if Bateman has a repeat of this season, which is highly likely with the personnel he has around him at Wigan, he would be struggling to get a place in the team come world Cup time. He will still be getting ear ache all year from his girlfriend about going home to Australia too, which can't help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Hardaker in there and Bateman as captain tells you everything you need to know about the validity of that England squad. Get the NRL contingent plus the likes of Tomkins, Percival, Clark, Connor etc back in and it looks like a decent team. The Aussies will still be overwhelming favourites but they always are and we were an ankle tap away from winning the last WC final.
    What is the story with Percy missing out? I have either missed that one or forgotten it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    He parachuted aging players from the Wigan because he didnt know anything about players over here since he was a part time coach with a full time job in the DW stadium, England was an afterthought.
    So he had another job lined up and he played the players he was familiar with. It is a good job the new coach doesn't have the same problem*

    The whole GB tour was a mess. We didn't take enough players for a start. You suspect this was less the coach and more the RFL wanting to do it on the cheap.

    The closest we got to having a good team in the 2000s was David Waite but people didnt like him either. In the end the Aussie coaches get frustrated at the lack of basic skills our boys have so turn to NRL players. Hopefully I am wrong but things are looking bad for the world cup.

    *sarcasm
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    So he had another job lined up and he played the players he was familiar with. It is a good job the new coach doesn't have the same problem*

    The whole GB tour was a mess. We didn't take enough players for a start. You suspect this was less the coach and more the RFL wanting to do it on the cheap.

    The closest we got to having a good team in the 2000s was David Waite but people didnt like him either. In the end the Aussie coaches get frustrated at the lack of basic skills our boys have so turn to NRL players. Hopefully I am wrong but things are looking bad for the world cup.

    *sarcasm
    Shaun Wane was appointed England coach in 2020, that was his only role at the time, whereas Bennett was a full time coach in the NRL his entire tenure, its a completely different situation, and you know it.

    If you arent going to take a massive squad, its more important that you pick the right players to balance the squad, he didnt do that, because he either didnt know or care who he took, an England coach should know English rugby, if they dont then they shouldnt be in charge.

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    Forgive my ignorance but why no Percy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    Forgive my ignorance but why no Percy?
    Not seen anything official but its been mentioned on social media he was carrying an injury so wasnt available.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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