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Thread: Drop the victim complex

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Makinson’s came up off the shoulder, would have been a penalty anywhere else but it also denied a try scoring opportunity so a yellow was fair. It did not deny a certain try though as the Cats player was on his knees 5m out from the try line so it’s not a penalty try.


    Did it, though?

    As you say, the first impact was on the shoulder, and that alone was going to stop him scoring. That the arm was forced toward the head (by a combination of the impact of the first contact coupled with Yaha already going to ground) is pretty incidental.

    Worth noting also that the contact with the head happened with said head was about 2-3 foot from the floor, and when Makinson launched himself at Yaha, Yaha was more upright (ie, his sliding to his knees was a large factor in Makinson eventually making contact with his head)

    I think it was a penalty, but nothing more
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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I think you are being too selective over that one game when the problem has been over the full season, mid season Woolf spoke to the RFL about the 6 again rule and asking what his team was doing to be on the wrong side of so many restarts, I assume he didn';t get an answer. For a couple of live games I watched the restarts between the 2 sides and there was definitely more time given to the opposition and they were not even dominant tackles. One thing that is bugging me at the moment is our gang tackle and pushing back of the player the ref seems to be a few seconds quicker in shouting held because we are good at it.

    There is also leniency during a game and some form of fabrication in the disciplianary script, Kasiano-Maloney-Isa incidents just didn't match up with reality and was embarrassing. There is also a definite shift in players staying down to influence the outcome from the referee we were heading into football category over that one, for Saints we are too quick to get up and play after a foul but its starting to creep into our team now and players (mostly Coote) are staying down. It wouldn't suprise me if the headshot v 10 min yellow card statistic does not show parity to us.

    Its not all a one way street though we should be pinged for offside a bit more and we do obstruct defending an end of set kick. I accept we are the victim of our very own aggressive defence but when you compare isolated incidents the outcomes are inconsistent and not balanced.
    I agree with all of this. At the match I really did think we got the raw end of the deal, particularly with the high shots. But watching it back afterwards, it was pretty clear that we weren't harshly treated, and actually came out pretty well. It was almost like having Saint Stuart back from when he reffed the big games in the early days of Super League. Do Bradford still have a thread about the voluntary tackle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelCloset View Post
    I agree with all of this. At the match I really did think we got the raw end of the deal, particularly with the high shots. But watching it back afterwards, it was pretty clear that we weren't harshly treated, and actually came out pretty well.

    I think we marginally got the worse of the calls - but arguably more important to how the game splays out, and as has been pointed out, Cats had longer to slow the PTB to nullify our attacking threat.


    And I dare say Bratfud are still whining about the Joynt 'voluntary tackle' (which was gamesmanship from them stepping out of the way when Joynt was just about to make impact with their tacklers), and also the Withers fingertip knock-on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Did it, though?

    As you say, the first impact was on the shoulder, and that alone was going to stop him scoring. That the arm was forced toward the head (by a combination of the impact of the first contact coupled with Yaha already going to ground) is pretty incidental.

    Worth noting also that the contact with the head happened with said head was about 2-3 foot from the floor, and when Makinson launched himself at Yaha, Yaha was more upright (ie, his sliding to his knees was a large factor in Makinson eventually making contact with his head)

    I think it was a penalty, but nothing more
    Yes in my opinion Yaha had plenty of time to either slide in or get off his knees to get over the line if Makinson doesn’t hit him as Naiqama coming across is still a good distance away. The fact that he is low to the ground and it comes off the shoulder might have made it penalty only but it prevents a try scoring opportunity rather than a certain try, therefore yellow card, penalty but no penalty try. In my opinion anyway.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by singe View Post
    We get the Sky coverage over here in NZ and, to be honest, I thought they did an excellent job. From the pre-match to the half time entertainment, to the after match summaries and interviews I couldn't fault it.
    Sorry I mean generally throughout the seasons presentation not just for the GF.
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    Agree with the opening post that a bit of humility goes a long way to others viewing us as classy a set of fans as the team undoubtedly is.
    Agree also that the "threepeat" happens when a team is good not lucky with refs decisions, though a few on here think Leeds were lucky to win their three on the spin.
    The first was relief, "back to back" was very good, "threepeat" excellent........."four in a row" has a nice ring to it.
    Well done to all our teams and their support networks, their can never be enough plaudits for their achievments.
    The caution that RH put in the last sentence of the OP sums it up, it does not take much for the wheels to come off, hope the lessons are learned from previous years and the new recruits go well next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I disagree wholeheartedly. We’ve been the best team for 4 years :-)
    Correct - We have been the best team for the last 4 seasons - and along with that comes the pressure of everyone wanting to beat Saints because they are the bench mark team. Along side this comes the “biased commentary” from the Sky pundits - who become unbelievably excited if and when any team gives us a game - Jon Wells being the biggest culprit.
    “With great power comes great responsibility”

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    This is the same Jon Wells that said a few weeks back that we are not the same team that we were last season and our time was up and we would get found out in the play offs.

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    So I was going to start a new thread but this actually seems the best place for this.

    After Magic Weekend, I was somewhat despondent about the rest of the year (and ruffled a few feathers along the way). I thought the collapse showed us as mentally weak, and coupled with a few of the players talking about the challenge cup "rounding off a really successful period" I thought the absolute desire needed to get over the line in those big moments had gone, and whilst it was totally understandable that repeated success does that, it was nonetheless disappointing to miss out on the treble, and cede a psychological advantage to our likely eventual challengers.

    Boy, how wrong I was. I owe an apology to each of the club, everyone associated (and everyone who shouted me down in the MW thread) for doubting them finding the magic again. In the last 10 minutes of the season, everything on the line, Catalans force two goal line drop outs and we don't blink out of place, incredible by everyone involved, fans included. I was sat in the south stand and it genuinely felt like Catalans were trying to force their way through the crowd as much as the players. You could see how much it meant written all over Welsbys' face as Tomkins dropped it.

    As for all the noise and "controversy" that has come out since the final whistle; To Guasch; Come back to us when you have a blatant try in the first minutes of a final given as a tap on the 20 without reference to the video ref, a week after said ref had an event in his honour at the other club. I can't tell if the fans of other clubs don't know the rules or don't care when it comes to the penalty try. Was the high tackle the only reason Yaha didnt score? No it wasn't. As others have said, its not like if Makinson hadn't have hit him high, he wouldn't have tackled him (necessarily) as first contact was on the shoulder. The Coote pat back was a bad miss but you can see the touch judge intently focused on the ball, and the got another penalty in the same position a set later, so it was all a bit no harm no foul. Everything else was incredibly small fry. I hope McNamara feels silly comparing Mata'utia (who was excellent all game) with the Flower situation in the cold light of day.

    Is sport circular? Absolutely - did opposition fans revel in our "5 in a row" - of course. Does that mean we shouldn't now appreciate 3 in a row? Categorically no.

    Bring on the offseason and figuring out where on earth Konrad Hurrell fits into our plans

    Edit; OH - And a huge congratulations to our Womens team as well. It does our club a huge credit the time and energy invested in all of our teams, and to pull off such an emphatic treble is incredible!

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint mac View Post
    This is the same Jon Wells that said a few weeks back that we are not the same team that we were last season and our time was up and we would get found out in the play offs.
    His Commentary was so bad yesterday for the lady's game. He may as well have said c'mon you Leeds.

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    Wells was shocking yesterday. I understand the need to 'big up' the game if they thought Saints were overwhelming favourites, but not to the point of simply giving a one sided commentary. Also Clarke and others kept mentioning the men's game constantly and he even got a Ratboy reference in. Finally, one of them even mentioned the 'Man' of the Match towards the end of the game. Really poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say there’s a portion of our Saints’ fan base who do us no favours.

    Here’s the thing: we’re the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. It’s entirely normal for other clubs’ fans to be envious of that. I’m old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course they’ll look to support the underdogs and of course they’ll want to see us knocked off our perch. That’s sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we won’t be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. It’s bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because we’re successful. It’s just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they won’t last forever. And let’s not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    You ask fans of any club, be it in RL, football or anything, and there is an element that are absolutely convinced that the commentators and referees hate their own club.

    It's actually a coincidence that you should bring this up now, as before the weekend, this is what I wrote in the latest City fanzine.

    It’s an increasing theme on the internet these days to read about perceived commentary bias against us. Over recent times, the masses have ascertained that Martyn Tyler hates us, Darren Fletcher (the BT one) doesn’t like us, Martin Keown has got it in for us, Niall Quinn despises us, Andy Hinchcliffe still bears a grudge because we sold him to Everton and the others are all United and Liverpool fans so are going to hate us anyway. However, is any of this true? Well, in my honest opinion, most of it is a load of codswallop.

    Before I go into particular situations, there is one overriding feature that tells you it’s all rubbish and it’s the fact that every club has supporters who think everyone is biased against them too. Living where I do, I have good friends who support a vast array of clubs and there are some amongst them who think that Sky hate Liverpool, that all BT pundits hate United, there is an anti-Everton agenda, and there’s even pundits, referees and FA conspiracies against Bolton, Wigan and Preston North End. I’ve even met a Runcorn Linnets fan who is utterly convinced that the FA has been commanding referees to give dodgy decisions against them for years.

    In reality, what people suffer from is confirmation bias. They go in with a preconceived idea that the world is against them, so their minds selectively and instinctively pick up on their radar things that could possibly be construed as anti-City, whilst actually not noticing decisions that go our way or complimentary comments from pundits. The same happens at the rugby too and it all actually becomes rather tiresome.

    With all that in mind, many years ago I made a vow to try and look at things from a neutral point of view, and whilst I wouldn’t say that I was totally neutral in such things, I do think that I will look at things more objectively than most.

    In some people’s minds, Paul Tierney would not have sent James Milner off because he was biased, bunged or plain bent, but few would actually suggest that he just made a wrong call, because that isn’t going to fit with an agenda. Clearly, there is a situation where referees do subconsciously shy away from upsetting the crowd, but the truth is that we don’t know why he didn’t give it. People will just assume that he’s corrupt. Which is nonsense, although, I do know an Aston Villa supporter who swears blind that City get more dodgy decisions at home than anybody else in football. An opinion that, funnily enough, he’s only started to air since Jack Grealish left his club for us.

    The Martyn Tyler jibes really do make me laugh. Apparently, he hates us because when the opposition score his voice sounds all excitable and when we score, he sounds very downbeat. Needless to say, United and Liverpool fans tell me that Tyler hates them too. If you analyse what happens here, commentators like the drama, the shocks and goals for the underdogs. They want to see something exciting unfolding. So, should somebody like Forest Green score against City, then clearly there is something exciting happening, so he’ll scream and shout a bit. However, if City score, against 99% of teams, there is no shock, no drama unfolding, unless of course it is a late winner, and then I’m sure the tone would increase. Luckily for Tyler, he’s not on his own on the City fans’ naughty step. Apparently all the rest of them hate us too.

    At the risk of upsetting the Ed, for it was he I debated this with on the internet recently, I just didn’t get the accusations that Darren Fletcher and Martin Keown were biased towards PSG in the recent meeting, but then again, if you look for things, you will find them. So, that is why I’ll now purposely always look for things the other way too. Keown especially was scathing of the referee’s failure to give us free kicks and mentioned on several occasions how he wasn’t giving us any decisions at all. Fletcher soon backed him up and joined in and it became a recurring theme during the match. The studio analysts praised our performance and generally speaking, I saw no bias whatsoever, although any Parisian watching on British TV would have begged to differ. Similarly, I decided to watch the after-match analysis of the Liverpool game, which is something I don’t always do. Now, I’d expect Micah Richards to big us up, but what was telling was that Roy Keane and Jamie Carragher were also gushing about how we had played.

    Of course, whilst I will sit here and argue all day long that there is no bias against us from the vast majority of TV pundits, I cannot say the same for the press. In reality, Martin Samuel and Danny Murphy are just about the only two who give us a good rub in the papers. Neil Moxley and Brian Reade are particularly obnoxious and Stan Collymore makes no secret of the fact that he hates us and everything we stand for. There is no doubt too from reading the comments pages on various sites that we are indeed the most hated club around, but that in itself seems to have created a siege mentality amongst our own, and one that blocks out anything positive said about us. I can honestly say, I’ve tried to spot bias in the TV pundits, but I never do.

    At the end of the day, most of these pundits are pros. Clearly they have allegiances and clearly many of them will want us to lose games, but even the likes of Gary Neville and Roy Keane are generally fair when it comes to City, and they’ll say it as it is. Sometimes they’ll criticise, but they’re paid to offer a balanced opinion and that’s what they generally do.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say there’s a portion of our Saints’ fan base who do us no favours.

    Here’s the thing: we’re the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. It’s entirely normal for other clubs’ fans to be envious of that. I’m old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course they’ll look to support the underdogs and of course they’ll want to see us knocked off our perch. That’s sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we won’t be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. It’s bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because we’re successful. It’s just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they won’t last forever. And let’s not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    It does amaze me when Saints fans complain about bias. 3 Gf’s on the trot CC and Gf double this season. What do the conspiracy theorists think you would have won if there wasn’t any bias, the football World Cup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    It does amaze me when Saints fans complain about bias. 3 Gf’s on the trot CC and Gf double this season. What do the conspiracy theorists think you would have won if there wasn’t any bias, the football World Cup?
    Haha fair comment, made me chuckle anyway. Some people are never happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    It does amaze me when Saints fans complain about bias. 3 Gf’s on the trot CC and Gf double this season. What do the conspiracy theorists think you would have won if there wasn’t any bias, the football World Cup?
    Covid was invented by Wigan fans to stop us getting the chance to win last years World Club Challenge!
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Couldn’t agree more it’s borderline weirdo behaviour how you win a grand final for the third year on the run and most on here seem more bothered about complaining about other fans/ Catalan / Matautia (who if it had been the other way around would’ve been a clear red for Tomkins according to everyone on here). Enjoy the win ffs it doesn’t happen often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstand View Post
    Couldn’t agree more it’s borderline weirdo behaviour how you win a grand final for the third year on the run and most on here seem more bothered about complaining about other fans/ Catalan / Matautia (who if it had been the other way around would’ve been a clear red for Tomkins according to everyone on here). Enjoy the win ffs it doesn’t happen often.
    I wouldn't say it is borderline weirdo behaviour its more a siege mentality when opposition fans go into overdrive to devalue the teams efforts, social media platforms is a bitter place when many are a troll for the day. The Catalan President is the one who has shown borderline weirdo behaviour, Im pretty sure his players would have been embarrassed by his outburst after the game.

    The bias moaning from us is more about consistency really, for example Coote in an earlier match goes in to the tackle with knees into the chest and gets a one match ban, HaHa goes into the tackle late with knees to the head and our player has to leave the field injured and its a ZERO match ban.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    It does amaze me when Saints fans complain about bias. 3 Gf’s on the trot CC and Gf double this season. What do the conspiracy theorists think you would have won if there wasn’t any bias, the football World Cup?
    Did you forget, the RL changed the rules because we were too good, thought that one was a gem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Northstand View Post
    Couldn’t agree more it’s borderline weirdo behaviour how you win a grand final for the third year on the run and most on here seem more bothered about complaining about other fans/ Catalan / Matautia (who if it had been the other way around would’ve been a clear red for Tomkins according to everyone on here). Enjoy the win ffs it doesn’t happen often.
    Neurotic rather than weird, don`t forget the, Sky presentation bias, the commentary team and their offensive attire.
    Some of our fans posting on here need to behave with the dignity that our wonderful teams and club display.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I wouldn't say it is borderline weirdo behaviour its more a siege mentality when opposition fans go into overdrive to devalue the teams efforts, social media platforms is a bitter place when many are a troll for the day. The Catalan President is the one who has shown borderline weirdo behaviour, Im pretty sure his players would have been embarrassed by his outburst after the game.

    The bias moaning from us is more about consistency really, for example Coote in an earlier match goes in to the tackle with knees into the chest and gets a one match ban, HaHa goes into the tackle late with knees to the head and our player has to leave the field injured and its a ZERO match ban.

    Spot on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Spot on.
    As we mentioned consistency, McManus complained internally within the club of referee Hicks and was found to have broken the operational rules and fined 3000 pounds.

    Catalans Guasch complained externally of the club through the social media of referee Moore and the TJ's and apparently has broken the operational rules..............will he be fined 3000 euros, and how will the RFL respond to the conditional demands to participate next season.

    Will we get consistency.

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    [QUOTE=Wolfie McWolf;835981]It does amaze me when Saints fans complain about bias. 3 Gf’s on the trot CC and Gf double this season. What do the conspiracy theorists think you would have won if there wasn’t any bias, the football World Cup?[/QUOTE


    You can't win, if we were complete losers and moaned about bias it'd be sour grapes, if we point it out when we're winners (remember that feeling?) then we're "conspiracy theorists". Kenndalls Wigan bias in the previous GF was clear. After officiating a number of Pies games on the bounce, I think he developed Stockholm Syndrome and thought he was part of the Pie set up. That penalty he gave them 2 minutes before time should have sealed it for them but justice prevailed and Hardakaer blew it. The rest is history.

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    Bernie Gulch should start encouraging people in his own country to become referees not make demands that it has to be an Aussie ref. Perhaps if Saints gave them a couple of hub caps to go in the cabinet so theirs doesn't get lonely may placate him a little bit. After all the LLS is the most unvalued item in world sport.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    Fully agree with you, returning to Eccles on the tram was an embarrassment, listening to a mouthpiece shouting for Saints. This was followed by another hour on the train.Felt sorry for the lads with him, we can certainly do without the likes of him supporting us. I enjoy a good laugh and a joke, but this was well beyond that.First time i have travelled to Old Trafford this way,and probably the last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Whats ironic though is that Baz and Tez would have flattened Maloney for pushing a stiff arm into their throat. I think Baz encouraged and also mentioned in commentary that he agreed with Moore to let them get on with a bit of biff and let play go on. Then when they did the replay they changed to judge and jury mode.
    Best bit of reffing of the night for me. Moore saw the scuffle late but instantly realised it was coming to an end naturally and decided to let the game flow. I don't doubt that if the game had started to get out of hand later as a result he would have dealt with it, but it didn't and we had a classic. He didn't get everything right on the night but nor did any of the players, and if we had a few more like him the game would be all the better for it

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