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Thread: Drop the victim complex

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    Default Drop the victim complex

    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say thereís a portion of our Saintsí fan base who do us no favours.

    Hereís the thing: weíre the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. Itís entirely normal for other clubsí fans to be envious of that. Iím old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course theyíll look to support the underdogs and of course theyíll want to see us knocked off our perch. Thatís sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we wonít be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. Itís bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because weíre successful. Itís just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they wonít last forever. And letís not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say there’s a portion of our Saints’ fan base who do us no favours.

    Here’s the thing: we’re the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. It’s entirely normal for other clubs’ fans to be envious of that. I’m old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course they’ll look to support the underdogs and of course they’ll want to see us knocked off our perch. That’s sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we won’t be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. It’s bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because we’re successful. It’s just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they won’t last forever. And let’s not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.

    I disagree wholeheartedly. We’ve been the best team for 4 years :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say thereís a portion of our Saintsí fan base who do us no favours.

    Hereís the thing: weíre the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. Itís entirely normal for other clubsí fans to be envious of that. Iím old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course theyíll look to support the underdogs and of course theyíll want to see us knocked off our perch. Thatís sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we wonít be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. Itís bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because weíre successful. Itís just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they wonít last forever. And letís not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    I donít know whether youíre watching the womenís Grand Final but, bias or not, Jon Wells seems to be doing nothing but talking Leeds up and Saints down. I am personally happy for people to listen and make up their own minds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say there’s a portion of our Saints’ fan base who do us no favours.

    Here’s the thing: we’re the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. It’s entirely normal for other clubs’ fans to be envious of that. I’m old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course they’ll look to support the underdogs and of course they’ll want to see us knocked off our perch. That’s sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we won’t be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. It’s bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because we’re successful. It’s just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they won’t last forever. And let’s not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    Go on all the forums mate and they all read the same ‘ The refs are against us’ every teams fans state the ref was shocking when the lose and no mention of the ref when they win . Same with our fans. According to all clubs , the RFL are against them . It’s human nature to look at blaming others when you get a beating . It’s harder to look in the mirror (initially ) but much easier as time lapses . On here, and other mediums ,comments are very much ‘ instant fans reaction’ and often talk with high emotion attached as if what they are saying is a true and accurate account .

    There can sometime appear to be a fine line between arrogance and gloating . But when your on top , gloat to the max but just remember , you have to accept it when your on the receiving end

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I donít know whether youíre watching the womenís Grand Final but, bias or not, Jon Wells seems to be doing nothing but talking Leeds up and Saints down. I am personally happy for people to listen and make up their own minds.
    Too late. Heís changed tack.

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    Been on a lot of rival fans forums recently and I reckon over 50% of posts about Saints are complaints about refs being biased towards us. We all suffer from bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say there’s a portion of our Saints’ fan base who do us no favours.

    Here’s the thing: we’re the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. It’s entirely normal for other clubs’ fans to be envious of that. I’m old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course they’ll look to support the underdogs and of course they’ll want to see us knocked off our perch. That’s sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we won’t be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. It’s bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because we’re successful. It’s just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they won’t last forever. And let’s not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    I disagree, usually I watch the game with the Saints Specs on then I watch the replay again from a Neutral Perspective and we do suffer being on the wrong side of decisions quite frequently. The SKY commentary team are a disgrace I,m OK with supporting the underdog but the bias is ridiculous when the opposition are still in the game, only when Saints are ahead by a fair margin the commentary changes in our favour. Wells is famous for that and he did the exact thing in the Womens Superleague Final today once the saints were 18 points up he suddenly became complimentary.

    The other social media platforms are just heavy banter, we are not really arrogant but we do back our arguments with facts of reality and not stuff based on what could have been or if things were diffrent. We've been in the play offs for all of the 24 years and been in 13 grand finals thats not arrogant its pride and the opposition and media just don't like it.

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    I don’t think there is any bias against Saints as such but there does seem to be a bias against the top team at times. This just happens to be Saints. Whether the bias is unconscious I don’t know but there is bias in all sports, as there is in life, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
    Last edited by ffs; 10th October 2021 at 19:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say thereís a portion of our Saintsí fan base who do us no favours.

    Hereís the thing: weíre the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. Itís entirely normal for other clubsí fans to be envious of that. Iím old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course theyíll look to support the underdogs and of course theyíll want to see us knocked off our perch. Thatís sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we wonít be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. Itís bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because weíre successful. Itís just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they wonít last forever. And letís not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    This. This. This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffs View Post
    I don’t think there is any bias against Saints as such but there does seem to be a bias against the top team at times. This just happens to be Saints. Whether the bias is unconscious I don’t know but there is bias in all sports, as there is in life, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
    There is definitely a levelling down if anyone starts to excel. I think Saints themselves timed the play the balls earlier in the season and proved that we were getting unfair treatment. It was the same last night, Catalans had much more holding down time and it made it hard for us to get a roll on

    The way it was officiated made it quite a miraculous win

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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    The way it was officiated made it quite a miraculous win
    I think this is a bit red and white blinkered tbh. While I was shouting like the next fan for penalties etc during the match, the review of the game in the cold light of day suggested that we had - at least - our fair share of undeserved decisions. Coote's prevention of the ball finding touch wasn't actually a prevention - catalans take a tap there instead of us taking it back to their end as we did, and that's a big mistake. Likewise I'd never have penalised Tomkins not playing the ball correctly, particularly at that stage of a grand final. Very few refs would have made that call, and it was probably the moment which ended their challenge. Likewise, I think there's a case that Yaha should have had a penalty try when Tommy hit him high. It could have gone either way, but went with us.

    Of course, there's also a fair argument that Kev's second was an 8-pointer, and that the early head high on Lomax should have been a yellow too. But the point here is that like in every match, there were decisions which could have gone either way on both sides, and it doesn't seem to me to be the case that we were necessarily more negatively affected by those than Cats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    I think this is a bit red and white blinkered tbh. While I was shouting like the next fan for penalties etc during the match, the review of the game in the cold light of day suggested that we had - at least - our fair share of undeserved decisions. Coote's prevention of the ball finding touch wasn't actually a prevention - catalans take a tap there instead of us taking it back to their end as we did, and that's a big mistake. Likewise I'd never have penalised Tomkins not playing the ball correctly, particularly at that stage of a grand final. Very few refs would have made that call, and it was probably the moment which ended their challenge. Likewise, I think there's a case that Yaha should have had a penalty try when Tommy hit him high. It could have gone either way, but went with us.

    Of course, there's also a fair argument that Kev's second was an 8-pointer, and that the early head high on Lomax should have been a yellow too. But the point here is that like in every match, there were decisions which could have gone either way on both sides, and it doesn't seem to me to be the case that we were necessarily more negatively affected by those than Cats.
    Never a case for a penalty try. He had lost his footing and was going to his knees before Tommy hit him.

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    Default Drop the victim complex

    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    Never a case for a penalty try. He had lost his footing and was going to his knees before Tommy hit him.
    He was going to his knees because thatís how Yaha slides to the try line. He hadnít lost his footing, it was deliberate.

    I was surprised a PT wasnít given tbh


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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    Been reading a lot of threads on here and elsewhere on social media recently. I have to say thereís a portion of our Saintsí fan base who do us no favours.

    Hereís the thing: weíre the best team in the comp and have been for three years now. Itís entirely normal for other clubsí fans to be envious of that. Iím old enough to remember when Wigan were winning everything, and how embittered a lot of Saints fans became about that (including a much younger version of myself). So of course theyíll look to support the underdogs and of course theyíll want to see us knocked off our perch. Thatís sport.

    Where we do ourselves no favours is being arrogant - one day we wonít be top dog any more, and we should have some humility. But worse, some fans seem to be developing some weird victim complex where they seem to think everyone from the RFL to the officials to the sky commentary team are biased against Saints. Itís bollocks. Makes me cringe to read yet another post claiming that we were victimised unfairly somehow by people just because weíre successful. Itís just daft.

    Enjoy these glory days, because they wonít last forever. And letís not sour them with irrationality and arrogant entitlement towards others. One day, these places will be traded.
    Agree with everything you've typed in this post. On balance, I thought we had the best of the decisions and a penalty try could absolutely have been given, even though a yellow card was a bit over the top. The decision to penalise Tomkins with 2 minutes to go was tough and the touch judge missing Coote's foot in touch when he retrieved Maloney's penalty was very poor. We had some go against us, LMS was penalised for taking the player out in the air and the crossing decision against Makison was very tough. Can't honestly believe that any Saints fan who knows anything about RL can say that the referee was against us or gave more against us than for us. It really looks poor when you get the same whingers criticising referees.

    Had a look on a couple of forums and I actually think many have been gracious towards Saints and have said how much we've deserved it. Still, everyones entitled to their opinion.

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    It's simply a reaction to the amateurs on Sky having a bias against Saints. If Sky get more balanced and interesting commentators and analysts the game will improve. I agree it serves no-one to be arrogant though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    It's simply a reaction to the amateurs on Sky having a bias against Saints. If Sky get more balanced and interesting commentators and analysts the game will improve.
    I didn't think they were bias, everyone on social media were calling for Ma'tautia to be sent off. Baz and Tez saw it for what it was, Maloney looking for a reaction, getting one and not liking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    It's simply a reaction to the amateurs on Sky having a bias against Saints. If Sky get more balanced and interesting commentators and analysts the game will improve. I agree it serves no-one to be arrogant though.
    We get the Sky coverage over here in NZ and, to be honest, I thought they did an excellent job. From the pre-match to the half time entertainment, to the after match summaries and interviews I couldn't fault it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Haggerty View Post
    I think this is a bit red and white blinkered tbh. While I was shouting like the next fan for penalties etc during the match, the review of the game in the cold light of day suggested that we had - at least - our fair share of undeserved decisions. Coote's prevention of the ball finding touch wasn't actually a prevention - catalans take a tap there instead of us taking it back to their end as we did, and that's a big mistake. Likewise I'd never have penalised Tomkins not playing the ball correctly, particularly at that stage of a grand final. Very few refs would have made that call, and it was probably the moment which ended their challenge. Likewise, I think there's a case that Yaha should have had a penalty try when Tommy hit him high. It could have gone either way, but went with us.

    Of course, there's also a fair argument that Kev's second was an 8-pointer, and that the early head high on Lomax should have been a yellow too. But the point here is that like in every match, there were decisions which could have gone either way on both sides, and it doesn't seem to me to be the case that we were necessarily more negatively affected by those than Cats.
    I think you are being too selective over that one game when the problem has been over the full season, mid season Woolf spoke to the RFL about the 6 again rule and asking what his team was doing to be on the wrong side of so many restarts, I assume he didn';t get an answer. For a couple of live games I watched the restarts between the 2 sides and there was definitely more time given to the opposition and they were not even dominant tackles. One thing that is bugging me at the moment is our gang tackle and pushing back of the player the ref seems to be a few seconds quicker in shouting held because we are good at it.

    There is also leniency during a game and some form of fabrication in the disciplianary script, Kasiano-Maloney-Isa incidents just didn't match up with reality and was embarrassing. There is also a definite shift in players staying down to influence the outcome from the referee we were heading into football category over that one, for Saints we are too quick to get up and play after a foul but its starting to creep into our team now and players (mostly Coote) are staying down. It wouldn't suprise me if the headshot v 10 min yellow card statistic does not show parity to us.

    Its not all a one way street though we should be pinged for offside a bit more and we do obstruct defending an end of set kick. I accept we are the victim of our very own aggressive defence but when you compare isolated incidents the outcomes are inconsistent and not balanced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I donít know whether youíre watching the womenís Grand Final but, bias or not, Jon Wells seems to be doing nothing but talking Leeds up and Saints down. I am personally happy for people to listen and make up their own minds.
    I watched and wanted to slap him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    I didn't think they were bias, everyone on social media were calling for Ma'tautia to be sent off. Baz and Tez saw it for what it was, Maloney looking for a reaction, getting one and not liking it.
    Whats ironic though is that Baz and Tez would have flattened Maloney for pushing a stiff arm into their throat. I think Baz encouraged and also mentioned in commentary that he agreed with Moore to let them get on with a bit of biff and let play go on. Then when they did the replay they changed to judge and jury mode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    He was going to his knees because that’s how Yaha slides to the try line. He hadn’t lost his footing, it was deliberate.

    I was surprised a PT wasn’t given tbh


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    It's never a penalty try. He's 5 metres from the try line when he makes 1st contact, which hit the shoulder and then went into the head.

    I thought the sin binning decision was very harsh, should've been penalty sufficient.
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    I don’t think we are the only ones who moan a la head frog and Catalans owner Bernard Guasche if that’s not persecution complex I don’t know what is! Of course he is also making a massive assumption that he’ll get in another Grand Final the sad slob.

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    I saw a post on Twitter by someone who seemed to be a RL ref, saying that when assessing whether a try was a certainty, you can't discount the presence of the player committing the foul. If you think about it that makes sense, otherwise you'd have a penalty try any time there was a foul in a one-on-one tackle situation anywhere near the try line. So with that in mind, there's absolutely no way that was a penalty try.

    The Coote call was obviously incorrect but did them no harm at all; they had another penalty within a minute and were back exactly where they would have been.

    The call that I thought was rough for them was the one on Tomkins at the end. You can see where he's got the call from but it's the kind of thing you could blow up for ten or twenty times a game, and for him to suddenly jump on it at that moment must have been hard to swallow for the Catalans fans.

    But that's the way it goes: no referee ever has a perfect game, and in a close match where there's only one score in it you will always be able to point to a decision that might have been the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    It's never a penalty try. He's 5 metres from the try line when he makes 1st contact, which hit the shoulder and then went into the head.

    I thought the sin binning decision was very harsh, should've been penalty sufficient.
    I agree with this, there was a high shot in the first half on Lomax that was probably more deserving of a yellow than the Makinson tackle, if that happens anywhere else on the pitch its probably only a penalty, just because its near the tryline shouldnt make it a yellow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    I agree with this, there was a high shot in the first half on Lomax that was probably more deserving of a yellow than the Makinson tackle, if that happens anywhere else on the pitch its probably only a penalty, just because its near the tryline shouldnt make it a yellow.
    Makinsonís came up off the shoulder, would have been a penalty anywhere else but it also denied a try scoring opportunity so a yellow was fair. It did not deny a certain try though as the Cats player was on his knees 5m out from the try line so itís not a penalty try. Iím sure if weíd lost the game weíd have a massive list of injustices that cost us the game as we have after other big games weíve lost. Thatís just how it goes when you lose a big game by just a couple of points though, you feel with a couple of extra decisions your way you could have won it.
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