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Thread: 2006 v's 2021

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I would have theought the two were Murphy and Karalius.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Peters View Post
    Try Karalius and Murphy
    Most definitely, the Brylcreem Boys were way ahead of their time, Murphy had the advantage though in having Karalius as his minder, foul Murphy and Karalius would let you know about it. Murphy's half back partner Alan Whittle struggled a bit in the partnership at times as Murphy was always 2 plays ahead but Whittle got there in the end.

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    I think most modern teams would beat their counterparts from that era now just due to fitness and defence.

    Having said that, there were some greats of the SL era in that team so would love to see it as a game.

    Can't agree with the comment the standard of the comp was higher in 06. I think it's become a myth that teams were so much better because the game was more open. Hull made the final that year after winning something like the last 10 with players such as Carvell, S.Briscoe, Yeaman, Washbrook, Whiting, G.Horne and Scott Wheeldon (all in the GF 17).

    Whilst I'm not saying they aren't decent to good players they certainly aren't a level above teams now.

    I think the game was just more open back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    I think most modern teams would beat their counterparts from that era now just due to fitness and defence.

    Having said that, there were some greats of the SL era in that team so would love to see it as a game.

    Can't agree with the comment the standard of the comp was higher in 06. I think it's become a myth that teams were so much better because the game was more open. Hull made the final that year after winning something like the last 10 with players such as Carvell, S.Briscoe, Yeaman, Washbrook, Whiting, G.Horne and Scott Wheeldon (all in the GF 17).

    Whilst I'm not saying they aren't decent to good players they certainly aren't a level above teams now.

    I think the game was just more open back then.
    Bit harsh on Yeaman that. Alright he was no Lyon but he was a very good centre

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    Bit harsh on Yeaman that. Alright he was no Lyon but he was a very good centre
    I'd certainly have him in the good category. You're right probably harsh listing him with some of the others in that list.

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    2006 certainly had the better players, but I think 2021 would beat them. The coaching of Woolf is magnificent when it works and as already stated the suffocation from the line speed, fitness and aggression of this current side would have been too much for them.

    The 2006 players coached in 2021 by Woolf would be nigh on unbeatable.

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    You cant compare teams 15 years apart saying the more modern team is fitter. If the 2006 team were playing now, would not their fitness levels be a lot higher. Whilst a solid defence would certainly limit the attacking chances of the 2006 team nothing can stop a piece of individual brilliance. There was plenty of that in the 2006 team. For me 2006 would just shade it but it would be pretty close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    You cant compare teams 15 years apart saying the more modern team is fitter. If the 2006 team were playing now, would not their fitness levels be a lot higher. Whilst a solid defence would certainly limit the attacking chances of the 2006 team nothing can stop a piece of individual brilliance. There was plenty of that in the 2006 team. For me 2006 would just shade it but it would be pretty close.
    Yes absolutely if the 2006 team played now they'd be fitter, but I think that's the point of the comparison. The 2006 team are better man for man and more talented, but as they were in 2006 they're probably less fit and not as structured. It's not about bringing 2006 into 2021 or vice versa, just comparing each team on their individual merits from their own periods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackrowSaint View Post
    Yes absolutely if the 2006 team played now they'd be fitter, but I think that's the point of the comparison. The 2006 team are better man for man and more talented, but as they were in 2006 they're probably less fit and not as structured. It's not about bringing 2006 into 2021 or vice versa, just comparing each team on their individual merits from their own periods.
    I remember the 2006 being very fit as wasnt Apollo Perelini the strength and conditioning coach at the time? Then there was a noticeable drop off in fitness levels when he left.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    I remember the 2006 being very fit as wasn’t Apollo Perelini the strength and conditioning coach at the time? Then there was a noticeable drop off in fitness levels when he left.
    Yeah that's a good point, Perilini had them very well drilled. The defence probably wasn't far off where things are at now either, Anderson was one of if not the first coach to really introduce that defensive structure and steel into Super League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    I remember the 2006 being very fit as wasn’t Apollo Perelini the strength and conditioning coach at the time? Then there was a noticeable drop off in fitness levels when he left.
    Quote Originally Posted by BackrowSaint View Post
    Yeah that's a good point, Perilini had them very well drilled. The defence probably wasn't far off where things are at now either, Anderson was one of if not the first coach to really introduce that defensive structure and steel into Super League.
    I think Apollo probably had us fitter than any other team of that time, and though Anderson certainly made us much more defensive, I think tactics and sports science have moved on in 15 years. I think we are fitter and better defensively now. It's very hard to compare teams across different eras

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    Of course, you can't compare eras, because whilst teams of the past may have had much more ability, fitness levels are such that even the limited skillset of today's games would see the current players bludgeon them into the ground. If those players were coached and looked after as today, they may well have bulked up and lost a lot of that ability, and similarly, players of today playing back then would be less robotic and have more flair.

    The 2000 team was far better than the 2006 one in my opinion. The 2000 team had a lot more quality throughout. The 2006 side was more functional and relied on brute force in the pack to get us on a roll.

    I would also say that the competition level in 2000 was far tougher than either 2006 and 2021. People talk about how weak the competition is now but, in reality, there was little to get excited about in terms of the opposition in 2006. It was the weakest set of opposition for many a long year. Leeds collapsed and Hull FC were far from spectacular, but were the second best team in the competition. Wigan were relegation candidates, Warrington hadn't really arrived and Bradford had shot the bolt.

    Wigan and Bradford were damned fine teams in 2000 and beating them to the title was far more of an achievement than 2006 was and 2021 would be.

    Of course, we did win three trophies in 2006, but, as I say, there weren't any real rivals.

    I'll try to look at the three first choice teams and pick a combined one. Where players played in more than one of the teams, I'll highlight them in the year that I though they were at their best.

    2000 - Wellens, Hoppe, Iro, Newlove, Sullivan, Martyn, Long, O'Neill, Cunningham, Perelini, Joynt, Tuilagi, Sculthorpe SUBS Stankevitch, Jonkers, Matautia, Nickle
    2006 - Wellens, Gardner, Lyon, Talau, Meli, Pryce, Long, P.Anderson, Cunningham, Cayless, Gilmour, Sculthorpe, Hooper SUBS Roby, V.Anderson, Fozzard, Fa'asavalu
    2021 - Coote, Makinson, Naiqama, Percival, Grace, Lomax, Fages/Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Scarsbook, Mata'utia, Batchelor, Knowles SUBS Welsby, Thompson, Lees, Amor

    Now, I appreciate it is only opinion, but as shown above, I'd choose a XIII including 8 from the 2000 season, 3 from the 2006 season and just 2 from the current one.

    Clearly, opinion may well change with the progression of Welsby, Dodd and probably Grace and Knowles too, because we've had the benefit of seeing the careers of all the others play to a conclusion, but certainly, for me, it demonstrates the quality of the 2000 team to the 2006 one, and our lack of other trophies in 2000 was down to a much tougher top-of-the-table than the 2006 one, which I considered to be very weak.
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    I would agree with your assessment there Dave.

    I was talking to a few Wiganers recently and they were saying the standard now is the worst ever and it was alot better 8-10 years ago when Wigan were dominating. I made the point that the late 90s and early 00s was the best standard in SL. You had a strong Saints, Wigan, Bradford and even Leeds were a decent side then (albeit weaker than the other 3).

    Since around 2006, you've never really seen great Saints, Wigan, Leeds and Bradford sides collectively. Warrington have kind of replaced Bradford but despite a few cup wins and GF appearances, they haven't won a great deal in the last 10 years. We were on the decline from 2009, didn't win anything for 5 years and then were awful for 3 seasons after the 2014 GF win until Holbrook took over and we've been dominant since.

    Leeds were great in the big games from 07 but as soon as the golden generation retired, they dropped off a cliff from 2016 and some of their league finishes during that period were pathetic (finished 5th a few times). Wigan were dreadful from 2005 until 2010 and then had some good spells of trophy success after until 2018 but have been rubbish for 3 years. Bradford haven't been a prominent team for 15 years now.

    The standard is no worse now than it has been for years. SL hasn't been a strong competition for a while and until we have a strong Saints, Leeds, Wigan and Wire all at the same time, it's difficult to compare with previous teams.
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    It will be a great achievement if this group of players can achieve a three-peat and equal Leeds' record. That said I agree with others that say the opposition and competition in general isn't as strong as it has been in the past. Roby (at his best) and Walmsley are the two players from this generation that would be in any Saints side from the SL era. I don't think I could say that for any of the others.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    The 2000 team was far better than the 2006 one in my opinion. The 2000 team had a lot more quality throughout. The 2006 side was more functional and relied on brute force in the pack to get us on a roll.

    I'll try to look at the three first choice teams and pick a combined one. Where players played in more than one of the teams, I'll highlight them in the year that I though they were at their best.

    2000 - Wellens, Hoppe, Iro, Newlove, Sullivan, Martyn, Long, O'Neill, Cunningham, Perelini, Joynt, Tuilagi, Sculthorpe SUBS Stankevitch, Jonkers, Matautia, Nickle
    2006 - Wellens, Gardner, Lyon, Talau, Meli, Pryce, Long, P.Anderson, Cunningham, Cayless, Gilmour, Sculthorpe, Hooper SUBS Roby, V.Anderson, Fozzard, Fa'asavalu
    2021 - Coote, Makinson, Naiqama, Percival, Grace, Lomax, Fages/Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Scarsbook, Mata'utia, Batchelor, Knowles SUBS Welsby, Thompson, Lees, Amor

    Now, I appreciate it is only opinion, but as shown above, I'd choose a XIII including 8 from the 2000 season, 3 from the 2006 season and just 2 from the current one.

    Clearly, opinion may well change with the progression of Welsby, Dodd and probably Grace and Knowles too, because we've had the benefit of seeing the careers of all the others play to a conclusion, but certainly, for me, it demonstrates the quality of the 2000 team to the 2006 one, and our lack of other trophies in 2000 was down to a much tougher top-of-the-table than the 2006 one, which I considered to be very weak.
    Good to see someone giving the 2000 team its due (though 1996 was a breath of fresh air).

    For me the 2000 final v Wigan is still the best I've seen. Two really good teams (and local rivals to boot) in good form going head to head (and without the 'rub of the green' that takes the edge off the 2002 final for me).

    Anderson was lucky that he got the tail end of that 'golden decade', but credit to him for adding a new defensive steel to it. Since then, however, and (with genuine respect to Holbrook and Woolf for what, in their very different ways, have done) its been largely downhill for me.

    (But I'll be there on Saturday, daft as ever)

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    i'd agree that the 2000 team was the best, but that wasn't the question.
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    From DD's post my 4 subs would be:

    Cayless
    Knowles
    Roby
    Fa'asavalu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    i'd agree that the 2000 team was the best, but that wasn't the question.
    Fair point, but that perhaps just indicates how much the achievements of the 2006 team have tended to obscure the quality of some of the teams of the previous 10 years. (Which, in a sense, laid the foundations for the 2006 success)

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    2006 all day long, that team had better players than this current one. did sculthorpe play in the GF 2006?

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    Default 2006 v's 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    2006 all day long, that team had better players than this current one. did sculthorpe play in the GF 2006?
    No. We missed Sculthorpe and Fozzard in the final, replaced them with Hooper and Bennett, Vinnie Anderson wasnt in the 17 either.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    2006 all day long, that team had better players than this current one. did sculthorpe play in the GF 2006?
    No he didn't play in that one

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    2006 was a good side but it still had 2 wingers everyone on here hated, a second rower that everyone hated and Mike Bennett

    That's in jest a bit but time has been kind to that side, it only won one Grand Final in a row and the core of it got absolutely annihilated by Leeds the next year

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    From DD's post my 4 subs would be:

    Cayless
    Knowles
    Roby
    Fa'asavalu
    Tulagi was a monster off the bench wasn't he? Maybe him ahead of Knowles/ Fa'asavalu

    Makinson is our best winger of the SL era but there isn't much between Sullivan and Grace imo two class acts

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post

    Now, I appreciate it is only opinion, but as shown above, I'd choose a XIII including 8 from the 2000 season, 3 from the 2006 season and just 2 from the current one.

    On paper, the 2001 first choice team was at least as good as any:

    Paul Wellens, Sean Hoppe, Kevin Iro, Paul Newlove, Anthony Sullivan; Tommy Martyn, Sean Long, David Fairleigh, Keiron Cunningham, Sonny Nickle, Chris Joynt (c), Peter Shiels, Paul Sculthorpe

    Won the WCC, won the CCF, lost some stinkers in the league (finished 4th) as we fizzled out toward the end with some key injuries (Sullivan, Newlove, Long, Nickle all had their seasons ended early, with Fairleigh patched together), losing heavily to the scum in the 'preliminary final' (who in turn were trounced by Bratfud in the GF)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    Tulagi was a monster off the bench wasn't he? Maybe him ahead of Knowles/ Fa'asavalu

    Makinson is our best winger of the SL era but there isn't much between Sullivan and Grace imo two class acts


    I'd say Darren Albert has a shout for that
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