Chapel House Motor Company Limited Advertising Banner
Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 180

Thread: Lomax Welsby Dodd

  1. #76
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,297
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Not to mention a left foot kicking game. Our last tackle options are more varied and unpredictable now. It used to go out to Theo for an ineffective bomb. Now we have ggenuine kicking options on the last tackle.

    Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

  2. #77
    In The South Stand Nickles Forearm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    St Helens
    Posts
    2,583
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Saint View Post
    Cant actually beleive what im reading. Lomax is the best player Saints have.
    It’s called a fickle fan base and a lot of them hide in this forum. Embarrassing reading, the same fans who called Welsby ‘bang average’ and absolutely lambasted Woolf for playing him at times early last season. Some said ‘no idea what all the fuss is about he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be near the team’ etc etc. ‘Send him out on loan’… Same old stuff from same old ‘followers’. If Welsby makes some mistakes and we lose a big game this forum will go into meltdown, imagine if Dodd falls off a few tackles, heaven forbid he’s not even protected by a last second grand final try.

  3. #78
    In The South Stand
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Newport, Shropshire
    Posts
    2,856
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickles Forearm View Post
    It’s called a fickle fan base and a lot of them hide in this forum. Embarrassing reading, the same fans who called Welsby ‘bang average’ and absolutely lambasted Woolf for playing him at times early last season. Some said ‘no idea what all the fuss is about he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be near the team’ etc etc. ‘Send him out on loan’… Same old stuff from same old ‘followers’. If Welsby makes some mistakes and we lose a big game this forum will go into meltdown, imagine if Dodd falls off a few tackles, heaven forbid he’s not even protected by a last second grand final try.
    Personally I’m glad that we’ve got Dodd, Lomax and Welsby. I’ve no reason to believe that Woolf will change his mind at playing Dodd at 7, Lomax at 6 and Welsby at 1 next season. While Coote (who is playing well in combination with Dodd and Welsby) is still with us there is still a problem who to play if Lomax is fully fit. Despite some well founded arguments (not just fans being fickle) why Dodd and Welsby should stay at 7 and 6, I personally think Lomax should come back at 6 with Welsby playing off the bench. I don’t envy Woolf the decision because he certainly won’t please everyone but it’s a tremendous dilemma to have. A year ago we’d have all panicked if Lomax had been out injured. As it stands I’ll just have to trust the judgment of coaches who see them play and train and who know better than we do what influence and leadership Lomax offers on and off the field.

  4. #79
    In The West Stand saintgeorge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    eccleston
    Posts
    5,257
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickles Forearm View Post
    It’s called a fickle fan base and a lot of them hide in this forum. Embarrassing reading, the same fans who called Welsby ‘bang average’ and absolutely lambasted Woolf for playing him at times early last season. Some said ‘no idea what all the fuss is about he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be near the team’ etc etc. ‘Send him out on loan’… Same old stuff from same old ‘followers’. If Welsby makes some mistakes and we lose a big game this forum will go into meltdown, imagine if Dodd falls off a few tackles, heaven forbid he’s not even protected by a last second grand final try.
    I guess you’ve just got to trust the coaching staff and KW who selects the team. It’s human nature for sports fans to offer opinions but the professionals who deal with the team and players day in day out know best and in this case they’ve been proven right.

  5. #80
    WARNING! WOLF FAN!

    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    404
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    IF we make it to the semi against you I would prefer Lomax at 6 (this may come back to haunt me) he has been a shadow of his former self this season

  6. #81
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    8,874
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickles Forearm View Post
    It’s called a fickle fan base and a lot of them hide in this forum. Embarrassing reading, the same fans who called Welsby ‘bang average’ and absolutely lambasted Woolf for playing him at times early last season. Some said ‘no idea what all the fuss is about he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be near the team’ etc etc. ‘Send him out on loan’… Same old stuff from same old ‘followers’. If Welsby makes some mistakes and we lose a big game this forum will go into meltdown, imagine if Dodd falls off a few tackles, heaven forbid he’s not even protected by a last second grand final try.
    Very true, Woolf use to get a lot of stick on here as well when in reality Coote and Roby's form was below par and everything creative was coming through Lomax who got bashed week in week out for his efforts.

    Now we have Coote, Roby, Dodd, Welsby and the return of Lomax, our attack has picked up and we finish sets with some unpredictability. We could possibly still have a blunted attack playing Warrington in a semi final but it won't be of a 5 drives and a kick nature, we've got 5 pivots with lots of skill who have built up decent form since Wembley.

  7. #82
    Got A Season Ticket NewJerseySaint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    217
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickles Forearm View Post
    It’s called a fickle fan base and a lot of them hide in this forum. Embarrassing reading, the same fans who called Welsby ‘bang average’ and absolutely lambasted Woolf for playing him at times early last season. Some said ‘no idea what all the fuss is about he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be near the team’ etc etc. ‘Send him out on loan’… Same old stuff from same old ‘followers’. If Welsby makes some mistakes and we lose a big game this forum will go into meltdown, imagine if Dodd falls off a few tackles, heaven forbid he’s not even protected by a last second grand final try.
    I'm not fickle, I'd say I was pragmatic and just saying it as I see it. Which could be right or wrong....

    Out of interest on a like for like comparison and based on current form, what aspect of Johnny's game do you believe to be better or on a par with Jack's?

    Sent from my SM-G996B using Tapatalk

  8. #83
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,130
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseySaint View Post
    I'm not fickle, I'd say I was pragmatic and just saying it as I see it. Which could be right or wrong....

    Out of interest on a like for like comparison and based on current form, what aspect of Johnny's game do you believe to be better or on a par with Jack's?

    Sent from my SM-G996B using Tapatalk
    I would say JL is on par, if not better than Welsby on the defensive aspects of the game & definitely superior when it comes to game management but Welsby is learning very fast and I wonder if giving JL a 4 year deal was a wise move in hindsight.

  9. #84
    In The South Stand Nickles Forearm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    St Helens
    Posts
    2,583
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseySaint View Post
    I'm not fickle, I'd say I was pragmatic and just saying it as I see it. Which could be right or wrong....

    Out of interest on a like for like comparison and based on current form, what aspect of Johnny's game do you believe to be better or on a par with Jack's?

    Sent from my SM-G996B using Tapatalk
    His game management
    His try assists
    His general defence (Lomax misses slightly less tackles)

    But the most important for me is his game management. This was evidently missing toward the end of the game against Catalan at Magic for example.

    I think Jack clearly scores more tries and makes more line breaks than Lomax which makes us more of an attacking threat when he has the ball. For me, he still carries this threat in the centres and we should be accommodating him in the 17 but not at the expense of a fully fit Jonny Lomax.

  10. #85
    Banned Gerry Mander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Around the Ruck. Winning the Collision.
    Posts
    3,223
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickles Forearm View Post
    His game management
    His try assists
    His general defence (Lomax misses slightly less tackles)

    But the most important for me is his game management. This was evidently missing toward the end of the game against Catalan at Magic for example.

    I think Jack clearly scores more tries and makes more line breaks than Lomax which makes us more of an attacking threat when he has the ball. For me, he still carries this threat in the centres and we should be accommodating him in the 17 but not at the expense of a fully fit Jonny Lomax.
    Welsby is the player in form and possession of the shirt.

    Clearly Lomax should not be just cast aside.

    To coin his advocates phrase "Jonny has been quiet" for quite dome time.
    I don't think Lomax's presence would have made the difference against Cats.
    Everyone clocked off towards the end inc Coote and Roby.

    On a Form V Reputation assessment for finals selection ,
    for me Welsby stays at 6 and Lomax comes in at 14.

  11. #86
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk The Yellow Giraffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    11,763
    Rep Power
    33

    Default

    Good debate this and it's a good problem to have but must be a nightmare for Woolf and I imagine it's something playing on his mind. Throughout the season there were many calls for Dodd and then the Fages injury made the decision for him, it was easy and he didn't have to drop anyone. But now he is going to have to make a huge call.

    On the face of it, the thought of Lomax not being an automatic pick seems ridiculous and if someone said 6 weeks ago there'd be serious debate about whether he gets in a full strength Saints team I'd have laughed. Having said that, I do understand where people are coming from. We do look more dangerous, more fluent, less predictable with Dodd and Welsby there. It's exciting and they play with a level of freedom that we haven't seen much of under Woolf.

    However I just can't envisage a knock-out game in 3 weeks times and Jonny Lomax being dropped. It just feels wrong to me. Neither of Welsby or Dodd "deserve" to be dropped but neither of them have the experience, know-how and big game management that Lomax does. He's also defensively stronger than both, not that defence is a particular weakness of either of them.

    What Woolf does is probably going to be the hardest decision he's had as Saints coach. I genuinely haven't got a clue or an inkling as to what he will do but the most shocking and most unlikely call would be to not select Lomax, in my opinion.

    Just a thought as I am typing this, and I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if anyone else has asked this, but is Coote in danger? Could Welsby to 1 be an option? It's no more controversial than dropping Lomax which is being considered on here so why not Coote?
    NEVER WRITE OFF THE SAINTS

  12. #87
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    625
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickles Forearm View Post
    His game management
    His try assists
    His general defence (Lomax misses slightly less tackles)

    But the most important for me is his game management. This was evidently missing toward the end of the game against Catalan at Magic for example.

    I think Jack clearly scores more tries and makes more line breaks than Lomax which makes us more of an attacking threat when he has the ball. For me, he still carries this threat in the centres and we should be accommodating him in the 17 but not at the expense of a fully fit Jonny Lomax.
    I think in a normal Lomax season the try assists comment would be fair but he's on 14, Welsby 13.

    Lomax has had a season quite a bit off last season (21 assists) and we played less games last season IIRC.

    Since Welsby has been in the halves he's had 7 assists and 3 tries in 4 games so I'd imagine that would put him as the best half in the competition (during that period) and that's Wire, Catalan and Leeds (potentially 3 of the top 5 if Leeds beat KR at home) in those 4 games.

    For me, as everyone has their own opinion, we cannot move him and if we do there needs to be questions asked. That's from someone who has regularly backed KW on here.

  13. #88
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    625
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post

    Just a thought as I am typing this, and I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if anyone else has asked this, but is Coote in danger? Could Welsby to 1 be an option? It's no more controversial than dropping Lomax which is being considered on here so why not Coote?
    I think 6 weeks ago I'd of been fairly content with dropping Coote but I think he's found form again. Add in how solid he is under the high ball and he's got to play.

    As you say earlier, what a big call this is going to be.

  14. #89
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk The Yellow Giraffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    11,763
    Rep Power
    33

    Default

    How good is it though that we can talk about two young lads in this way and the fact they're putting serious pressure on top class players like Coote and Lomax. It's brilliant stuff that the club continue to turn out such fantastic young players.
    NEVER WRITE OFF THE SAINTS

  15. #90
    In The South Stand Nickles Forearm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    St Helens
    Posts
    2,583
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Let’s be completely honest, Jack Welsby has the makings to be a Saints great and a career club man ala. Robes. He’s already hitting heights far beyond most people’s expectations for a 20 year old. The only concern I have is, a big play off game, tight and not much in it. Does Welsbys lack of experience cost us. Such as decisions to kick for touch rather than run the ball. Not throwing it out wide when we need to keep it tight in the middle at periods in the game etc. All hypothetical thoughts as Welsby played centre in last years play offs and we know how that went.
    I don’t envy Woolfs decision here as he could do what today we may all collectively say is the right call and with the benefit of hindsight in 3 weeks time get it wrong and face criticism.

  16. #91
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    514
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Coote is currently our first choice goal kicker and that allied to his positional play and reliability under the high ball means he will be nailed on to start in the play offs

    Dodd seems to be nailed on as well , so it's welsby vs lomax, I'd expect lomax to start with welsby on the bench , if we need to chase the game we can bring welsby on and he can also cover full back centre and even wing if we pick up an injury

    In saying that if lomax has had no game time for some 7 weeks and KW goes with welsby then I would have no issues with that call

    Great position to be in

  17. #92
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Belgian Saint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    11,184
    Rep Power
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Good debate this and it's a good problem to have but must be a nightmare for Woolf and I imagine it's something playing on his mind. Throughout the season there were many calls for Dodd and then the Fages injury made the decision for him, it was easy and he didn't have to drop anyone. But now he is going to have to make a huge call.

    On the face of it, the thought of Lomax not being an automatic pick seems ridiculous and if someone said 6 weeks ago there'd be serious debate about whether he gets in a full strength Saints team I'd have laughed. Having said that, I do understand where people are coming from. We do look more dangerous, more fluent, less predictable with Dodd and Welsby there. It's exciting and they play with a level of freedom that we haven't seen much of under Woolf.

    However I just can't envisage a knock-out game in 3 weeks times and Jonny Lomax being dropped. It just feels wrong to me. Neither of Welsby or Dodd "deserve" to be dropped but neither of them have the experience, know-how and big game management that Lomax does. He's also defensively stronger than both, not that defence is a particular weakness of either of them.

    What Woolf does is probably going to be the hardest decision he's had as Saints coach. I genuinely haven't got a clue or an inkling as to what he will do but the most shocking and most unlikely call would be to not select Lomax, in my opinion.

    Just a thought as I am typing this, and I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if anyone else has asked this, but is Coote in danger? Could Welsby to 1 be an option? It's no more controversial than dropping Lomax which is being considered on here so why not Coote?
    I agree with you, a great dilemma to have. I also agree with your analysis of the situation. However if I was going to drop someone to accommodate Welsby it would be KN

  18. #93
    In The West Stand saintgeorge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    eccleston
    Posts
    5,257
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    For me, Lomax has to play on Friday to prove his fitness before the two week lay off. To put him straight back in after about 5 weeks off would be reckless. Similar with LMS. We don’t want to be going into a semi final with players rusty - and the list is growing - Paasi, Lomax, LMS, now Coote.

  19. #94
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk The Yellow Giraffe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    11,763
    Rep Power
    33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by saintgeorge View Post
    For me, Lomax has to play on Friday to prove his fitness before the two week lay off. To put him straight back in after about 5 weeks off would be reckless. Similar with LMS. We don’t want to be going into a semi final with players rusty - and the list is growing - Paasi, Lomax, LMS, now Coote.
    Woolf has just said Lomax will get a run out this week.
    NEVER WRITE OFF THE SAINTS

  20. #95
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Newton-le-Willows; East Side of the Fence.
    Age
    51
    Posts
    12,863
    Rep Power
    33

    Default

    I've got to be honest and say that Lomax being back fit so soon is a problem that I wish we didn't have.

    I don't get this mantra from some that Lomax is the "best player we have". He is nothing like, and what is more, he has been played in a position that isn't his best for the last four seasons.

    Over the period of three and a half games since Welsby and Dodd started to play together in the halves, we have created far more chances and played much more rugby than the vast majority of the season put together. What is more, the two of them can do things near to the line on the last tackle. They have half back ingenuity. Welsby has footwork and suckers men out of position, added to line breaking and a quality of pass. Dodd has the kicking game and the vision to spot things on the last. He doesn't just hoof or prod it without thought.

    Jonny Lomax was a great player for us, but is he now? I don't think he is. He's lost a lot of his zip and his sidestep no longer gets him through the line. The one real ace in his game in 2021 is the cut-out pass to the corner, but he isn't the only one who can do that. Both Coote and Welsby do it. He doesn't test the defensive line with his footwork anymore, nor does he have a kicking game that is anything above bog-standard. He has become too easy for the opposition to nullify.

    The only things that can work in his favour are experience and defence, and admittedly they are key areas, and they can be the only reasons for any inclusion of his.

    I would imagine the coach will play Lomax in the semi, but with one game in six weeks behind him and all the past experience we have had of dropping form players for established regulars who may not be 100% fit, is this really a good idea?

    In reality, the coach is going to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, unless we win, of course.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Steps 1 to 6 Non-League Football

  21. #96
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    625
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    I've got to be honest and say that Lomax being back fit so soon is a problem that I wish we didn't have.

    I don't get this mantra from some that Lomax is the "best player we have". He is nothing like, and what is more, he has been played in a position that isn't his best for the last four seasons.

    Over the period of three and a half games since Welsby and Dodd started to play together in the halves, we have created far more chances and played much more rugby than the vast majority of the season put together. What is more, the two of them can do things near to the line on the last tackle. They have half back ingenuity. Welsby has footwork and sucker men out of position, added to line breaking and a quality of pass. Dodd has the kicking game and the vision to spot things on the last. He doesn't just hoof or prod it without thought.

    Jonny Lomax was a great player for us, but is he now? I don't think he is. He's lost a lot of his zip and his sidestep no longer gets him through the line. The one real ace in his game in 2021 is the cut-out pass to the corner, but he isn't the only one who can do that. Both Coote and Welsby do it. He doesn't test the defensive line with his footwork anymore, nor does he have a kicking game that is anything above bog-standard.

    The only things that can work in his favour are experience and defence, and admittedly they are key areas, and they can be the only reasons for any inclusion of his.

    I would imagine the coach will play Lomax in the semi, but with one game in six weeks behind him and all the past experience we have had of dropping form players for established regulars who may not be 100% fit, is this really a good idea?

    In reality, the coach is going to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, unless we win, of course.
    Have to agree with most of that even if it pains me to say it as Lomax been a key player for us.

    I don't agree he's been out of position, I think he's been a good half back for us for the last few years but right now I wouldn't have him in our halves and next season I would play him at 1. If his body is up to that.

    From the moment he's gone off against Leigh the attack came to life.

    Has KW changed tactics or are the two in there now better suited to us right now? Think that's the key question and I think it's the second one.

  22. #97
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Newton-le-Willows; East Side of the Fence.
    Age
    51
    Posts
    12,863
    Rep Power
    33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    Have to agree with most of that even if it pains me to say it as Lomax been a key player for us.

    I don't agree he's been out of position, I think he's been a good half back for us for the last few years but right now I wouldn't have him in our halves and next season I would play him at 1. If his body is up to that.

    From the moment he's gone off against Leigh the attack came to life.

    Has KW changed tactics or are the two in there now better suited to us right now? Think that's the key question and I think it's the second one.
    Absolutely.

    I actually think that he's always been a better No.1, although he did have an outstanding couple of years in the halves under Holbrook. Our halves opened themselves up a lot further back from the opponents line under Holbrook and that suited his game so much more. He's not a 'tin opener' on the opposition line and never has been.

    I hope that the last few weeks have convinced the coach that we shouldn't be pursuing Welsby at full back and Lomax in the halves, next season. It has to be the other way around. The absolute key to this is that Lomax no longer has any acceleration from standing still. He can't spring into life off his standing foot quick enough. Catching the ball and having momentum before hitting the line has to suit him more.

    Jack Welsby does have that ability to step and break from standing still that Lomax no longer possesses. What is more, Welsby is still a little raw in defence and, if I remember, had a few questions asked about his ability to field the high kicks.

    On the basis of tactics, I don't think they have changed. Lomax and Fages just didn't have enough in their lockers to create things from a more conservative plan. The Woolf style of play generally involves a very basic plan until the last few metres, so on the basis that we rarely break from deep, last tackle plays are all the more essential. For the first time in many years, going way back and beyond Holbrook, the halves are looking to try something different close to the line and are often succeeding in coming up with the goods.
    THIS YEAR LENDING SUPPORT TO:- St. Helens RLFC, Manchester City, Celtic, Alemannia Aachen, Steps 1 to 6 Non-League Football

  23. #98
    Starting A Programme Collection Roger Moore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Location
    Warrington
    Posts
    581
    Rep Power
    5

    Default

    Seeing the squad for the Salford game I wonder if Welsby and Lomax might get a half each at FB/Stand Off just to test the water.
    Loyal and true, not a glory hunter.

  24. #99
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    109
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Can't believe some of what I'm reading here. As promising as they are (and I'm very very excited about them both), Welsby and Dodd have only played together against bottom of the table Leigh and a very average Leeds side. We looked great for bits against Catalan, but ultimately lost. The first thing I said after that defeat was I don't think we'd have lost had Lomax been playing.

    I remember watching us lose at Wigan on Good Friday, when Liam Farrell scored in the last seconds. That was the season Lomax was 7 and Gaskell was 6. Lomax put a grubber through trying to score rather than playing smart and kicking the ball out - people slated him for that and (rightly) pointed out that a seasoned half back would have seen that game out for us. The same applies here.

    We're heading into the important bit of the season, and that calls for big players. Lomax is still the best #6 in the league, and has won us countless close games over the past 3/4 years, he will do nicely for me

  25. #100
    Got A Season Ticket
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Age
    36
    Posts
    353
    Rep Power
    8

    Default

    I'd probably go with Welsby 7, Lomax 6 and Dodd 14 if all 3 are fit.

    Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •