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Thread: Lomax Welsby Dodd

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by St Nel View Post
    Can't believe some of what I'm reading here. As promising as they are (and I'm very very excited about them both), Welsby and Dodd have only played together against bottom of the table Leigh and a very average Leeds side. We looked great for bits against Catalan, but ultimately lost. The first thing I said after that defeat was I don't think we'd have lost had Lomax been playing.

    I remember watching us lose at Wigan on Good Friday, when Liam Farrell scored in the last seconds. That was the season Lomax was 7 and Gaskell was 6. Lomax put a grubber through trying to score rather than playing smart and kicking the ball out - people slated him for that and (rightly) pointed out that a seasoned half back would have seen that game out for us. The same applies here.

    We're heading into the important bit of the season, and that calls for big players. Lomax is still the best #6 in the league, and has won us countless close games over the past 3/4 years, he will do nicely for me
    Whilst I concur with your thoughts on experience, he isn't even the best 6 in the club right now.

    The harsh reality is that he's lost his zip. He isn't the player he was for us. Lomax is a good half in a style that involves using the halves in the middle third of the field, but we don't play that way under Woolf. The halves are pretty much starved of possession until the area close to the line. Without that ability to accelerate from standing still, Lomax is continually nullified.

    It is possible that we may not have lost against Catalans if Lomax had been playing, but I could equally counteract with the fact that we wouldn't have scored so many points either, so there is no definitive answer to this.

    I do tend to share the same concern about big match temperament, though, and that is why I can see the alternative view.

    In all honesty, perhaps Welsby and Lomax for this season's big games would be the sensible pairing, but this comes with risks and those risks are playing a partnership with no experience of playing together, and playing a player who has looked less than 100% right for a long time, without having played more than a game in a few weeks. Have we not learned the lessons of 2019, when playing players at Wembley based upon reputation and experience rather than form and fitness cost us dearly?

    As I said, if we lose, there will be blame attached to the half back combination, whatever it is, and people on here will be giving it large and getting abusive towards those that held the alternative view. That's actually why I'd have preferred there not to be a choice, and the same would apply for Fages, because undoubtedly there would be some clambering for him to be included instead of Jack Welsby because of his "experience".

    Ultimately, regardless of who you think is the best player, playing half backs who aren't match fit or match sharp in big games nearly always finds them out, and is one game in six weeks going to be enough to get him back up to speed? I'm just not seeing enough from the 2021 version of Jonny Lomax to make his selection justified as things stand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieVonEagle View Post
    I'd probably go with Welsby 7, Lomax 6 and Dodd 14 if all 3 are fit.

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    I would absolutely imagine that this is what the coach will do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post

    Jack Welsby does have that ability to step and break from standing still that Lomax no longer possesses. What is more, Welsby is still a little raw in defence and, if I remember, had a few questions asked about his ability to field the high kicks.
    Speaking of struggling when fielding the high ball, anybody else notice that at every single kick off against Leeds (and there were quite a few!) Welsby lined up in the winger position and TMak lined up in the HB position, so he could field the kick off before passing to the prop?

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    Lomax is coming back after a nasty injury , off the bench for this one and certainly bring him into the game to see how it goes .
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Whilst I concur with your thoughts on experience, he isn't even the best 6 in the club right now.

    The harsh reality is that he's lost his zip. He isn't the player he was for us. Lomax is a good half in a style that involves using the halves in the middle third of the field, but we don't play that way under Woolf. The halves are pretty much starved of possession until the area close to the line. Without that ability to accelerate from standing still, Lomax is continually nullified.

    It is possible that we may not have lost against Catalans if Lomax had been playing, but I could equally counteract with the fact that we wouldn't have scored so many points either, so there is no definitive answer to this.

    I do tend to share the same concern about big match temperament, though, and that is why I can see the alternative view.

    In all honesty, perhaps Welsby and Lomax for this season's big games would be the sensible pairing, but this comes with risks and those risks are playing a partnership with no experience of playing together, and playing a player who has looked less than 100% right for a long time, without having played more than a game in a few weeks. Have we not learned the lessons of 2019, when playing players at Wembley based upon reputation and experience rather than form and fitness cost us dearly?

    As I said, if we lose, there will be blame attached to the half back combination, whatever it is, and people on here will be giving it large and getting abusive towards those that held the alternative view. That's actually why I'd have preferred there not to be a choice, and the same would apply for Fages, because undoubtedly there would be some clambering for him to be included instead of Jack Welsby because of his "experience".

    Ultimately, regardless of who you think is the best player, playing half backs who aren't match fit or match sharp in big games nearly always finds them out, and is one game in six weeks going to be enough to get him back up to speed? I'm just not seeing enough from the 2021 version of Jonny Lomax to make his selection justified as things stand.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this post. We have struggled terribly in attack for two years and both jonny and Theo have tto shoulder some of the blame for this. Our attack in the grand finalise last year was clunky and ineffective (albeit against a wigan side that defended well).

    We finally find a combination of players that has resulted in the attack flowing and we have scored a ton of points and I think we just got to run with it this season.

    Having Dodd on the left has added a left footed kicking game which we never had before. It adds tuncertainty in the last tackle. Welsby is first name on the team sheet at the moment as far as I am concerned.



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    From Woolfs comments yesterday it looks like Lomax and Dodd in the halves with Welsby somewhere else.

    He mentioned Jack being able to play a number of positions so I took that as he will be doing whilst he praised Dodd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    From Woolfs comments yesterday it looks like Lomax and Dodd in the halves with Welsby somewhere else.

    He mentioned Jack being able to play a number of positions so I took that as he will be doing whilst he praised Dodd.
    I’d say he’s nailed on to be at full back, what with Coote being out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasgowsaint View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly with this post. We have struggled terribly in attack for two years and both jonny and Theo have tto shoulder some of the blame for this. Our attack in the grand finalise last year was clunky and ineffective (albeit against a wigan side that defended well).

    We finally find a combination of players that has resulted in the attack flowing and we have scored a ton of points and I think we just got to run with it this season.

    Having Dodd on the left has added a left footed kicking game which we never had before. It adds tuncertainty in the last tackle. Welsby is first name on the team sheet at the moment as far as I am concerned.



    The last few games have been a breath of fresh air.

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    My heart is entirely with you on this, but my head says in a GF against seasoned campaigners like Moloney and Tompkins we need JL's experience. Him and Dodd in the halves to start with Welsby on the bench in case it's not working out seems to me to keep the maximum number of options open.

    Ps. I look forward to seeing a rejuvented JL next season, when he is not carrying the entire weight of the attack on his shoulders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DewiSant View Post
    My heart is entirely with you on this, but my head says in a GF against seasoned campaigners like Moloney and Tompkins we need JL's experience. Him and Dodd in the halves to start with Welsby on the bench in case it's not working out seems to me to keep the maximum number of options open.

    Ps. I look forward to seeing a rejuvented JL next season, when he is not carrying the entire weight of the attack on his shoulders.
    I do not think we would have given up the 18 point lead with Lomax on the field to steady the ship. On the other hand would we have been 18 points up in the first place? There is a balance to be struck but going into a play off then hopefully grand final you need the big game experience of Lomax. Having Welsby on the bench to cover 1-7 or come on at 13 with a license to roam in attack adds an extra dimension to the team.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Good debate this and it's a good problem to have but must be a nightmare for Woolf and I imagine it's something playing on his mind. Throughout the season there were many calls for Dodd and then the Fages injury made the decision for him, it was easy and he didn't have to drop anyone. But now he is going to have to make a huge call.

    On the face of it, the thought of Lomax not being an automatic pick seems ridiculous and if someone said 6 weeks ago there'd be serious debate about whether he gets in a full strength Saints team I'd have laughed. Having said that, I do understand where people are coming from. We do look more dangerous, more fluent, less predictable with Dodd and Welsby there. It's exciting and they play with a level of freedom that we haven't seen much of under Woolf.

    However I just can't envisage a knock-out game in 3 weeks times and Jonny Lomax being dropped. It just feels wrong to me. Neither of Welsby or Dodd "deserve" to be dropped but neither of them have the experience, know-how and big game management that Lomax does. He's also defensively stronger than both, not that defence is a particular weakness of either of them.

    What Woolf does is probably going to be the hardest decision he's had as Saints coach. I genuinely haven't got a clue or an inkling as to what he will do but the most shocking and most unlikely call would be to not select Lomax, in my opinion.

    Just a thought as I am typing this, and I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if anyone else has asked this, but is Coote in danger? Could Welsby to 1 be an option? It's no more controversial than dropping Lomax which is being considered on here so why not Coote?
    I considered Coote in the equation before taking him out.

    For me, despite a poor start to the season he has really gotten into form and kicks (both in-game and goals). These factors made me think Coote at 1 is the only real certainty.

    I think Lomax's 2021 form as the season has gone on has dragged him into the debate. Although reading through the comments I do agree that he'll benefit from pace around him next season. Fages and Coote have been great servants but after 3 seasons and 3 years older the whole thing has slowed down.

    I'd also have someone who's played 1 in the last three years over someone who hasn't (Lomax).

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    Coote goes straight back into the squad, without a doubt. How he organises our defence is one of the main reasons it's been so good this year. I'm a bit baffled by some of the negativity he's been getting from fans which seems to have coincided with the announcement he is going to Hull KR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    Coote goes straight back into the squad, without a doubt. How he organises our defence is one of the main reasons it's been so good this year. I'm a bit baffled by some of the negativity he's been getting from fans which seems to have coincided with the announcement he is going to Hull KR.
    I agree. He had a few uncharacteristic mistakes but overall he brings a lot to the party.

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    I think people were being negative towards Coote before the KR announcement to be honest.

    He started the season poorly. Poor errors, slow and offering little in attack.

    He has benefited from the pace of these two a well.

    I think the reality is Coote, Lomax and Fages wasn't quick enough and that made all 3 look worse than they actually are because defences had time.

    These two came into the halves and Coote automatically had more time and space.

    Hopefully be the same for Lomax next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    I think people were being negative towards Coote before the KR announcement to be honest.

    He started the season poorly. Poor errors, slow and offering little in attack.

    He has benefited from the pace of these two a well.

    I think the reality is Coote, Lomax and Fages wasn't quick enough and that made all 3 look worse than they actually are because defences had time.

    These two came into the halves and Coote automatically had more time and space.

    Hopefully be the same for Lomax next season.
    Very true, Woolf was copping all the flack about our clunky attack when it was Coote and Roby not playing well and Percival got that injury. Full back and Hooker are very important pivots and you can't get away with below performances for any extensive period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Very true, Woolf was copping all the flack about our clunky attack when it was Coote and Roby not playing well and Percival got that injury. Full back and Hooker are very important pivots and you can't get away with below performances for any extensive period.
    Yep. Roby has also improved in the last month or two. There was a spell he was running for 7 metres a game. His metres will be down now with his age but even just attempting to get out of dummy half, as he did a few times Friday, will give our halves more time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    I think people were being negative towards Coote before the KR announcement to be honest.

    He started the season poorly. Poor errors, slow and offering little in attack.

    He has benefited from the pace of these two a well.

    I think the reality is Coote, Lomax and Fages wasn't quick enough and that made all 3 look worse than they actually are because defences had time.

    These two came into the halves and Coote automatically had more time and space.

    Hopefully be the same for Lomax next season.
    I wholeheartedly agree.

    The balance is alot better with Coote, Welsby and Dodd than any other combination.

    Coote offers reliability, experience and composure from the back, whilst the other two offer pace, zip and the ability to get the ball wide quick.

    Anything other than this in the Semi final will be a disappointment for me. I love Lomax he's been great for us but he's not had a great season by his standards and is just returning from a month lay off. He has no real form behind him.

    Welsby 13 tries, 13 assists.
    Lomax 2 tries, 14 assists.

    The player with the biggest threat is obvious right now. Warrington target Lomax massively aswell, they know exactly how to play him and it's likely they will be our opponents. I hope Woolf is brave when he picks the team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    I think people were being negative towards Coote before the KR announcement to be honest.

    He started the season poorly. Poor errors, slow and offering little in attack.

    He has benefited from the pace of these two a well.

    I think the reality is Coote, Lomax and Fages wasn't quick enough and that made all 3 look worse than they actually are because defences had time.

    These two came into the halves and Coote automatically had more time and space.

    Hopefully be the same for Lomax next season.
    I think Coote suffers by comparison to his 2019 season. But to be fair the same could be said about a number of our players. We weren’t particularly great in 2020 (especially pre lockdown) but we hit higher gears at the business end of the year with that impressive semi win over Catalans.
    Without sounding too arrogant i think this squad (individually and collectively) can play at 7/10 for most of the year and still make the top 2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    I think Coote suffers by comparison to his 2019 season. But to be fair the same could be said about a number of our players. We weren’t particularly great in 2020 (especially pre lockdown) but we hit higher gears at the business end of the year with that impressive semi win over Catalans.
    Without sounding too arrogant i think this squad (individually and collectively) can play at 7/10 for most of the year and still make the top 2.
    Coote has struggled at the start of every season in 2020 and 2021 with a long standing knee injury that flares up from his NRL days. The Covid years of 2020 and 2021 has added another inconsistency in our game, we already had inconsistent referees, inconsistent disciplinary and now Covid created inconsistent game schedules.

    I agree about our performance values, a defence orientated Superleague has not given us the chance to perform at 8 or 9 out of 10 on a regular basis but Woolf will tell you that the problem for that has been self inflicted in quite a few games.

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    Lomax has lost the ability to break the line to the extent he did in 2019. Age catching up with him I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint from Bury View Post
    Lomax has lost the ability to break the line to the extent he did in 2019. Age catching up with him I suppose.
    I think you’ll see a lot more from Lomax when we have other threats in the spine like Welsby, Dodd and Lussick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I think you’ll see a lot more from Lomax when we have other threats in the spine like Welsby, Dodd and Lussick.
    There have been times when he was our only threat in attack. As you say with other options, I would expect a different game from JL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree.

    The balance is alot better with Coote, Welsby and Dodd than any other combination.

    Coote offers reliability, experience and composure from the back, whilst the other two offer pace, zip and the ability to get the ball wide quick.

    Anything other than this in the Semi final will be a disappointment for me. I love Lomax he's been great for us but he's not had a great season by his standards and is just returning from a month lay off. He has no real form behind him.

    Welsby 13 tries, 13 assists.
    Lomax 2 tries, 14 assists.

    The player with the biggest threat is obvious right now. Warrington target Lomax massively aswell, they know exactly how to play him and it's likely they will be our opponents. I hope Woolf is brave when he picks the team.
    100% agree.

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    Woolf talked before and after the game about the halves getting some rhythm together so it is going to be Lomax & Dodd I'd imagine.

    I can't believe there's a possibility Welsby will be sat on the bench for parts of the games given his form. It'll be a huge, huge error IMO if he does.

    Lomax best asset is his cut out ball, Wire defend that better than anyone in the league as shown from the meeting back in June. That's who we're going to be playing being realistic.

    Our attack had become one dimensional, the same play again and again.

    That's why under Woolf we've hardly scored a point against them until.....Dodd & Welsby were in the halves and we scored 4 tries from a variation of positions.

    I hope I'm wrong but I sense we could have all 3 on the pitch late on trying desperately to keep it alive wishing we'd started the young lads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesSL View Post
    Woolf talked before and after the game about the halves getting some rhythm together so it is going to be Lomax & Dodd I'd imagine.

    I can't believe there's a possibility Welsby will be sat on the bench for parts of the games given his form. It'll be a huge, huge error IMO if he does.

    Lomax best asset is his cut out ball, Wire defend that better than anyone in the league as shown from the meeting back in June. That's who we're going to be playing being realistic.

    Our attack had become one dimensional, the same play again and again.

    That's why under Woolf we've hardly scored a point against them until.....Dodd & Welsby were in the halves and we scored 4 tries from a variation of positions.

    I hope I'm wrong but I sense we could have all 3 on the pitch late on trying desperately to keep it alive wishing we'd started the young lads.
    Totally agree with this. My gut feeling says that if we go with Lomax at 6, we lose. I'd, of course, be happy to be proved wrong, but I fear far too many people are thinking that we have the Jonny Lomax of 2018-19 and not the Jonny Lomax of 2021.

    Blobby's facts are telling. Jonny Lomax has scored two tries in league games in two seasons. Both were following kicks through. Welsby scores from all over the park, but creates at just the same rate.

    He just hasn't got that acceleration from standing still anymore. He doesn't make breaks and he's no last set plays. That cut out pass you speak of is the last trick that his body is seemingly allowing him to perfect to the best of his ability.

    Jack Welsby is one of the top players in the British game and needs to be in the heart of the action. He doesn't need to be on the bench for half of the game, nor at centre, where he hardly ever sees the ball.

    Warrington have totally nullified Lomax in every meeting in recent times and in the last four meetings we played with Lomax in the team, we averaged 6 points per game.

    I'm not going to go on record as saying that a Welsby-Dodd partnership is a sure-fire winner. It does come with defensive concerns. However, in recent times we've struggled to ask questions of Warrington bar the one game that they did play together. For me, it would be pure folly to go for the supposedly safe option rather than one that will make the opposition think, but I have no doubts in my mind that the safety-first mentality of the coach will see Lomax start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Totally agree with this. My gut feeling says that if we go with Lomax at 6, we lose. I'd, of course, be happy to be proved wrong, but I fear far too many people are thinking that we have the Jonny Lomax of 2018-19 and not the Jonny Lomax of 2021.

    Blobby's facts are telling. Jonny Lomax has scored two tries in league games in two seasons. Both were following kicks through. Welsby scores from all over the park, but creates at just the same rate.

    He just hasn't got that acceleration from standing still anymore. He doesn't make breaks and he's no last set plays. That cut out pass you speak of is the last trick that his body is seemingly allowing him to perfect to the best of his ability.

    Jack Welsby is one of the top players in the British game and needs to be in the heart of the action. He doesn't need to be on the bench for half of the game, nor at centre, where he hardly ever sees the ball.

    Warrington have totally nullified Lomax in every meeting in recent times and in the last four meetings we played with Lomax in the team, we averaged 6 points per game.

    I'm not going to go on record as saying that a Welsby-Dodd partnership is a sure-fire winner. It does come with defensive concerns. However, in recent times we've struggled to ask questions of Warrington bar the one game that they did play together. For me, it would be pure folly to go for the supposedly safe option rather than one that will make the opposition think, but I have no doubts in my mind that the safety-first mentality of the coach will see Lomax start.
    Good post that, thanks Dave.

    Only thing I would say is that until recently your main problem (other than with Woolf) was with the lack of creativity from Fages and the resultant ability of the opposition to pile in on Lomax.

    Those games we averaged 6 points - I haven’t checked but I suspect we are talking Lomax/Fages. I do think Lomax/Dodd is a different animal.

    I also think the prospect of having Lomax/Dodd/Coote/Welsby all on the field at the same time gives us lots of options with the ball and whether Welsby plays 6 or anywhere else, he will get his hands on the ball and cause problems.

    I can absolutely see why people want Welsby/Dodd as the halves and would have no argument at all with that. I do however think calling a loss if Lomax partners Dodd and saying if it happens it’s because out coach is so negative is a bit of an extrapolation.

    Isn’t it amazing how much can change in a year - this time last year Woolf was a bozo for picking Welsby in the eyes of many (not you I don’t recall Dave by the way), now he’s a bozo if he doesn’t drop Lomax for him.

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