That's exactly how I see it too. When we had a fit Walmsley, L Thompson and Taia (maybe Peyroux to a less extent) we were bending teams at will, creating loads of opportunities to be more expansive. We just don't have that capability at present and with our absolutely rock solid defensive structure and attitude we are playing the percentages. Why throw it around when you're only going to concede about 10 points on average?
Having Percival missing for most of last season and half of this season has been massive on our attacking structure. Already mentioned Grace had 4 or 5 different centres last year, luckily we had Welsby stepping up this season. You could also say its only the last 2 games that Coote has looked at his best.
I don't see any team in Superleague team who are ripping it up with entertaining rugby and winning consistently on the back of it. Catalan, Hull and Warrington are obviously the teams to beat heading into the play offs. Our game against Catalan in a couple of weeks will be a good yardstick for us, just hope we have a near full strength team to see where we are.
I think we do have x-factor players, especially in the backs, but I do accept there's less attacking threat in the forwards than there were.
We don't make the most of the forwards, though, in terms of attacking. I've said that I've warmed to Woolf overall and think it's a good thing he's going to be here next season. But our forwards do play too much of a one-out game. Opposition defences (already going to be well-set due to the rules allowing the slow PT generally know which of our players are going to get the ball. We don't utilise dummy runners enough; we don't have forwards running in with others on their shoulder and sometimes tipping it on just before or at the point of contact; our forwards [are presumably instructed to] almost always run at the defenders and not at gaps, and rarely look to get their hands through.
More excuses. This would only be true if Percival was playing like a centre. Thanks to our coach he's playing like an auxiliary second row
Woolfs tactics kill our outside backs, Makinson can hardly walk from the pitch sometimes he's that knackered. Our attack would improve if our backs were in a position to do their job and have some energy left to do it.
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I have to say I find in strange the way Percival and Makinson in particular seem to be running into contact at every opportunity
It does appear to be a game plan of ours, to bash the opposition into submission rather than to try and run around or outside them
If Woolf is staying I hope we get a new attack coach in , long would be ideal imo
Thats mainly because of the way Superleague is played in favour of defences over attacking partly down to Covid.
If you remember pre covid we use to see Makinson, Grace and Percival crabbing across the defensive line looking for an opening or stretching the line for an opportunity or something on the next play.
Because of Covid we got rid of scrums and now we have a very tight set defensive line. if this is done with good line speed then crabbing is very limited without losing metres so players go more direct these days. Its more or less the same for most teams, we do have a few teams in Hull KR and Warrington who stilll do it with the purpose of executing an offload but it creates errors.
For me we should bring back scrums, Percival would be much more effective playing 1 on 1 with space.
P.S. I think there is a podcast somewhere (early season) from Lomax who explained some of the above and he talks of playing whats in front of them instead of trying set plays, if I find it I will post the link on here.
Last edited by STIDDY; 30th July 2021 at 12:09.
I was pretty calm at the half time of the cup final. We seem to have a team that can do it in big games these days. Makinson, Grace, Welsby do seem to just pop up when we need them to in games. Welsby especially looks like a big match player for years to come.
That being said I had been on the beers for the first time in months, so that could have been a reason why I was so relaxed.
I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.
I think people often forget that our best performance for maybe 10 years or so, and our best performance under JH (Wigan at home) involved lots of backs absolutely carting it in as forwards and punching holes in their defence without us going out wide majorly at any stage until the game was won.
Percival and Makinson have carried that way since they came into the team, its got nothing to do with Woolf. Every team at every level up and down the country worth its salt uses the three quarters to carry early on exits, it conserves energy for the forwards not having to bust back to the 20 to carry.
I remember being at a forum in 2019 and Lomax saying it’s on the outside backs to get a quick PTB tackles 0/1/2, then forwards come in and make space out wide before we go out wide at the end of the set. Backs setting this all in motion isn’t new, people just don’t like this coach as what is happening at the end of sets isn’t what it could be at the min.
I think it was explained by Wellens about keeping energy levels up for the forwards so they can do this attacking defence to maintain pressure. When the opposition finish their set and kick deep, they dont want our forwards running back 30 to 40 metres to take on the 1st or 2nd carry and use more energy to make a 10 hard metres return.
Woolf likes to play with pressure, if we get a quick PTB and momentum it gives us a bit more time and space for our backs later in our set, when we finish our set our energy levels are still good so we can keep applying pressure with a repetitive attacking defence. We did a similar thing with Holbrook but we do it much better under Woolf similar to when Anderson tightened up our defence.
Last edited by STIDDY; 31st July 2021 at 14:42.
I understand the logic of backs retreating more quickly and forwards taking their time but it’s also about how they run. Grace seems to look for gaps but, admittedly, doesn’t often find one but Tommy and Percy run at the opposition in such a way that I worry about the possibility of their being injured.
Lose the agenda Tommy was like that under Holdbrook as was Percival. We was quite similiar to Woolfs style the year we won Salford especially the back end when Fages was our number 7. The year before we was entertaining but had Richardson and Barba and both couldent tackle a slug and we won Nowt!!
Yes all team use 1 or 2 drives from backs, we however continually use 3 or 4. It is everything to do with Woolf.
I'm not buying the excuses, he sets us up to grind and it's awful to watch.
Sport and in particular Saints to me is about more than just a result, it's more than about trophies or glory.
We have had teams that prove you can be incredibly successful by playing rugby, if you cant understand that sentiment its fine, but it doesn't make the point of view (or agenda bollocks) wrong.
The 95-96 made almost every tackle an attacking play, the team of the early 2000's did the same, Saints these days are shackled by Woolfs tactics and very rarely play what's in front of them. It's all controlled and poor set piece stuff.
Do I want to see Saints win? Of course! But in this league we don't need to play this rubbish rugby. As I said earlier this is the poorest competition since Super league started, we don't need to play conservative rugby and hope not to lose.
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Last edited by Buddy; 31st July 2021 at 21:09.
You're seeing what you want to see.
Alex Walsmley is our top carrier, despite apparently the backs taking all the ball. Not one of our outside backs is in the top 20 for carries, despite a plethora of other teams having them in.
There's very little difference, if any, to our exit sets under Holbrook and Woolf. It's clear to see if you watch games back without preconceptions.
Its most likely the other way around most teams use 3 or 4 drives from the backs, Saints use a lot less according to the league stats.
Davies, Yaha, Sio, Olpherts, McGillvary, Williams, have made over 200 carries this season, Bibby, Lyne, Hall, Briscoe, Charnley 180 carries some of those won't be drives. Makinson 110 carries and Grace 121 carries most are drives but its still significantly less.
I think you just don't like Woolf perhaps, when a lot of the problem is that Superleague is krap defensive these days.
As "Backrow Saint" has mentioned there is not much difference in the drive numeric under Holbrook and Woolf the problem for Woolf is that his wingers are driving up against a set line defence, under Holbrook our wingers didn't have a set line defence to run at so were more effective.
Last edited by STIDDY; 31st July 2021 at 21:33.