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Thread: 2022 ins and out ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Absolutely, I don't understand the stick Amor and LMS get. Our recent success has been due to the quality of props we have so why would you release both of them in one go? Unless we can find two equal props on the market who will command a similar wage or less then I'd retain them. They aren't world beaters but they're solid for us and very rarely get injured. There is a shortage of good British props out there and you never know what you're going to get with the NRL. The really good props like Paul Vaughan for example are on $800k, no way are we competing with that. Norman is a project prop and maybe one for next season tbf but at this stage we just don't know.
    I don't get the ditch MMS & Amor agenda either. Neither will be on a huge salary, they work hard & I doubt can be replaced for anywhere near their pay. If the quality props were available, would the pies not be signing them up ? Their need is far greater than ours, they have Singleton as a front line prop ! Don't forget we have Lee's to come back too. I will be very surprised if we don't have at least one of LMS & Amor playing next season. I don't expect Norman to feature as more than a cameo role this season in reality, he is a complete unknown

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    It looks bad or worrying at the minute but we’ve not announced any recruitment yet, so that’s making it look a little worse than it is currently. I’m not overly worried at the minute but I’ll judge it come the winter when we have our incoming names announced.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    A lot of people seem happy to ditch LMS and Amor and promote Norman. Do we know if Norman is actually any good?
    I know a few games into the season Norman was struggling with defensive reads close to the line (in training) maybe with Woolf being defensive minded he doesn't think he is ready for Superleague yet until we have inuries to a couple of props.

    It would be madness to get rid of both LMS and Amor, some posters don't see what LMS and Amor bring to the table but for me they have been going OK and Woolf giving Walmsley with LMS a start then bringing on Passi with Amor is a good balance and we dont see a drop off in momentum on the interchange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euroboy View Post
    We should retain LMS because there is no one available who can do the job he does. Get rid and use Norman people are saying, Norman is just a bodybuilder with no rugby brain. He will be gone in a couple of years
    I was told that in sprint training, LMS is our fastest forward. I know age may catch up stamina wise, but if you need one desperate sprint to save a try!

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    As Alan Hansen once said "you win nothing with kids" in rugby this could be true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    As Alan Hansen once said "you win nothing with kids" in rugby this could be true?
    Not always the case, look at Melbourne. Many said they would struggle once their spine players left and this year aside from Munster they've got a brand new spine at 1, 7 & 9. Both their 1 & 7 are rookies in Papenhauzen & Hughes and Grant only has a couple of years of 1st team experience when he went to Wests before coming back.
    I prefer the old adage from Murph, "if your good enough your old enough".

    I'm still not sure about or replacement hooking options long term but certainly Welsby & Dodds have shown enough so far that they're good enough to wear the Red V.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Absolutely, I don't understand the stick Amor and LMS get. Our recent success has been due to the quality of props we have so why would you release both of them in one go? Unless we can find two equal props on the market who will command a similar wage or less then I'd retain them. They aren't world beaters but they're solid for us and very rarely get injured. There is a shortage of good British props out there and you never know what you're going to get with the NRL. The really good props like Paul Vaughan for example are on $800k, no way are we competing with that. Norman is a project prop and maybe one for next season tbf but at this stage we just don't know.
    Agree 100%. If we can find better bench/fringe props for the same money then fine, but I think the chances of that are slim to zero.

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    I'd keep LMS and get rid of Amor, they both will need replacing in the next 12 months would be better to replace one this year and one next rather than both in a years time

    As for the others coote and kev look past their best and if they are asking for a further 2 years they will be really past their best in a season or so

    Fages is easily replaceable and imo dodd will not weaken us one bit, a few good signings and we will be fine

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    A few people on here are keen on Rhyse Martin.

    I don't quite get the fascination with him, he has had a few moments but nothing that would justify his quota place and big wages.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I was told that in sprint training, LMS is our fastest forward. I know age may catch up stamina wise, but if you need one desperate sprint to save a try!

    We only have a couple of forwards capable of running back after an end of set kick from the opposition, on our first drive return its usually Grace or Makinson but LMS is usually available because he has covered ground on the run back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    As Alan Hansen once said "you win nothing with kids" in rugby this could be true?
    Unfortunately for Hansen, I think that was the season the "kids" he was referring to were Man Utd, who went on to win the treble!

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    Quote Originally Posted by itswide2west View Post
    Looking worrying for next season. Already confirmed alot of outgoing but no incomings, only dufty rumoured but dont see that happening
    Do hope we have some signed behind the scenes but waiting to announce them
    I wouldnt worry , our academy would do ok in this league its that crap

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euroboy View Post
    We should retain LMS because there is no one available who can do the job he does. Get rid and use Norman people are saying, Norman is just a bodybuilder with no rugby brain. He will be gone in a couple of years
    SOrry, I should have said "gone within a day"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Toppy View Post
    Not always the case, look at Melbourne. Many said they would struggle once their spine players left and this year aside from Munster they've got a brand new spine at 1, 7 & 9. Both their 1 & 7 are rookies in Papenhauzen & Hughes and Grant only has a couple of years of 1st team experience when he went to Wests before coming back.
    I prefer the old adage from Murph, "if your good enough your old enough".

    I'm still not sure about or replacement hooking options long term but certainly Welsby & Dodds have shown enough so far that they're good enough to wear the Red V.
    Whomever is in charge of their recruitment deserves a big pat on the back Saint Toppy.

    Cronk left end of the 2017 season, Slater end of 2018 & Smith end of 2020. So they didn't make all the changes in one off season, it was a gradual transition. Papenhuyzen was a rookie in 2019, he won rookie of the year then. They moved Hughes from full back in to the halves in 2020 because of RP, so as I say, it's been gradual changes and having the right personnell. They signed both Papenhuyzen & Hughes too, from other clubs I think. Like they did with Addo-Carr to replace Koroibete and have now signed Xavier Coates to replace Addo- Carr.

    They did loan Grant to Wests for 2020 and of course they already had Brandon Smith on their books, whom I think is just as good as Grant. Having Smith (Brandon) really helped Cameron Smith last year, to share the workload out of dummy half and bring some dynamism in there.

    Who would you be inquiring about for hooker? I've not seen enough of Smith or Eaves and think both would benefit from a season long loan, like with Grant. Trouble is, Roby is going to need more help than ever before, being 36 next season. Parcell or Danny Walker would've been good options from SL I think. Both were off contract.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post
    Whomever is in charge of their recruitment deserves a big pat on the back Saint Toppy.

    Cronk left end of the 2017 season, Slater end of 2018 & Smith end of 2020. So they didn't make all the changes in one off season, it was a gradual transition. Papenhuyzen was a rookie in 2019, he won rookie of the year then. They moved Hughes from full back in to the halves in 2020 because of RP, so as I say, it's been gradual changes and having the right personnell. They signed both Papenhuyzen & Hughes too, from other clubs I think. Like they did with Addo-Carr to replace Koroibete and have now signed Xavier Coates to replace Addo- Carr.

    They did loan Grant to Wests for 2020 and of course they already had Brandon Smith on their books, whom I think is just as good as Grant. Having Smith (Brandon) really helped Cameron Smith last year, to share the workload out of dummy half and bring some dynamism in there.

    Who would you be inquiring about for hooker? I've not seen enough of Smith or Eaves and think both would benefit from a season long loan, like with Grant. Trouble is, Roby is going to need more help than ever before, being 36 next season. Parcell or Danny Walker would've been good options from SL I think. Both were off contract.
    And both only signed one year deals so if Roby goes around again in 2021 theyd both be options for 2022.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    And both only signed one year deals so if Roby goes around again in 2021 they’d both be options for 2022.
    Would you look to bring someone in to support Roby for next season though? For the 14/utility role, I mean to add some zip at dummy half. Would allow Roby to either come from the field or he could spell Knowles at 13, when he needs a break.

    Do you think one of Smith or Eaves will be released end of this season?
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post
    Would you look to bring someone in to support Roby for next season though? For the 14/utility role, I mean to add some zip at dummy half. Would allow Roby to either come from the field or he could spell Knowles at 13, when he needs a break.

    Do you think one of Smith or Eaves will be released end of this season?
    If there was a decent option available to come in then Id certainly be open to it. Smith is under contract next season, Eaves is not and whether he gets offered a deal might depend on whether the reserve league returns. Both are decent cover for Roby but I dont think either will ever be good enough to be our number 1 hooker.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post
    Would you look to bring someone in to support Roby for next season though? For the 14/utility role, I mean to add some zip at dummy half. Would allow Roby to either come from the field or he could spell Knowles at 13, when he needs a break.

    Do you think one of Smith or Eaves will be released end of this season?
    I think we should stay with Smith + Eaves next season if Roby retires, but as its likely Roby might go round again then either Smith or Eaves needs to go out on loan. Most clubs are running 2 hookers in the game because that position is so demanding with the way Superleague is a mess around the ruck. Its quite remarkable Roby can still do 60 mins, but we are seeing that inconsistency in an effective performance though and it looks as though we might have a similar scenario in the way Wello finished his career.

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    I think the recent posts have made a good point.

    In Australia when an old player retires they just find a new kid and give them a start. The idea of Saints doing this seems to horrify a lot of people on here.

    I guess there is an argument that the Toyota Cup is a more intense competition than our u19s so these players are more prepared.

    Maybe we should be using the loan system more? The likes of Dodd should have played 10 games for Widnes this season as starting 7. I guess the problem is the likes of Widnes dont see themselves as a feeder team.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    I think the recent posts have made a good point.

    In Australia when an old player retires they just find a new kid and give them a start. The idea of Saints doing this seems to horrify a lot of people on here.

    I guess there is an argument that the Toyota Cup is a more intense competition than our u19s so these players are more prepared.

    Maybe we should be using the loan system more? The likes of Dodd should have played 10 games for Widnes this season as starting 7. I guess the problem is the likes of Widnes dont see themselves as a feeder team.
    I think Warrington spook a lot of people when it comes to our recruitment. They're just going for it, constantly spending and looking for better players. We and every other club bar Hull KR simply aren't even trying to do that, even if you are one of the more balanced posters who suggest waiting for the recruitment to be finished before panicking. Yet we've been more successful recently. It does concern me that all of our recent success was related to the changes Justin Holbrook brought in and that we're just slipping back year on year now he's left. Had we had Holbrook last season and this, I doubt we'd have seen players opting to move elsewhere and I doubt we'd be at all concerned about the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post

    Who would you be inquiring about for hooker? I've not seen enough of Smith or Eaves and think both would benefit from a season long loan, like with Grant. Trouble is, Roby is going to need more help than ever before, being 36 next season.
    If Roby stays then i'd give either Smith or Eaves their shot, rotating with Roby, just as he did with Cunningham near the end of his career.
    If Roby does retire then the hooker i'd probably most like to see in a Saints shirt would be Koroisau from the Panthers. Unlikely to happen as he's not OOC but I think he's an absolutely cracking little player

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I think we should stay with Smith + Eaves next season if Roby retires, but as its likely Roby might go round again then either Smith or Eaves needs to go out on loan. Most clubs are running 2 hookers in the game because that position is so demanding with the way Superleague is a mess around the ruck. Its quite remarkable Roby can still do 60 mins, but we are seeing that inconsistency in an effective performance though and it looks as though we might have a similar scenario in the way Wello finished his career.
    The club will definitely want Roby to carry on and likely as first choice hooker. If Welsby is given the #1 shirt and Dodd #7, I don't think the club would want to be integrating a new #9 as well.

    As you say, it's a lot to ask of Roby. Who knows about Smith and Eaves, they're not making the 17 most weeks. Warrington vs Leeds the other night, both had 2 really effective hookers in their side that added the zip. Not many interchange hookers around. The hooker who did well at Salford last couple of years and went back to the NRL, Joey Lussick is off contract. As is Danny Levi whom I thought was good at Newcastle going back a few years.

    I've mentioned Tyrone Peachey in another thread, he can play second row, 13, centre and hooker. He would cost a lot of money mind, but would be a useful addition to the squad.

    From the centre list...Dylan Walker has been offered a new contract by Manly and so will likely stay there.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Toppy View Post
    If Roby stays then i'd give either Smith or Eaves their shot, rotating with Roby, just as he did with Cunningham near the end of his career.
    If Roby does retire then the hooker i'd probably most like to see in a Saints shirt would be Koroisau from the Panthers. Unlikely to happen as he's not OOC but I think he's an absolutely cracking little player
    Agreed on Koroisau, great player. Tom Starling at Canberra, is a brilliant interchange hooker. He's contracted until end of 2022 though.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    I think Warrington spook a lot of people when it comes to our recruitment. They're just going for it, constantly spending and looking for better players. We and every other club bar Hull KR simply aren't even trying to do that, even if you are one of the more balanced posters who suggest waiting for the recruitment to be finished before panicking. Yet we've been more successful recently. It does concern me that all of our recent success was related to the changes Justin Holbrook brought in and that we're just slipping back year on year now he's left. Had we had Holbrook last season and this, I doubt we'd have seen players opting to move elsewhere and I doubt we'd be at all concerned about the future.
    Since Moran bought the club Warrington have just tried to buy success instead of investing in their own and bringing them through. To some extent its worked as they've won a few CC's but it hasn't brought them any SL titles. Its no coincidence that the clubs who have won SL have all had their teams full of their own home grown players at that time (Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford). You'd have thought that Wire would have realised that by now, but they just keep on trying to buy themselves a title.
    The more that tactic fails the funnier it becomes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Toppy View Post
    Since Moran bought the club Warrington have just tried to buy success instead of investing in their own and bringing them through. To some extent its worked as they've won a few CC's but it hasn't brought them any SL titles. Its no coincidence that the clubs who have won SL have all had their teams full of their own home grown players at that time (Saints, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford). You'd have thought that Wire would have realised that by now, but they just keep on trying to buy themselves a title.
    The more that tactic fails the funnier it becomes.
    Yeah, their academy is improving now however. It's probably still behind Saints, Wigan and Leeds but is probably the fourth most effective now. Eventually the investment they are making is going to result in them winning it and potentially winning a few once they break that duck. They've got a great chance this year, Wigan are awful and we potentially peaked last season and are about to have a rebuilding phase.

    Leeds and Catalans can still throw a spanner in their works though hopefully if we do drop away as it seems we might.

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