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Thread: The Short Term Future

  1. #26
    In The South Stand Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    That's a big ••••ing fact and if he's not going to look after the future of the club for his own ends while were paying his quite handsome wages then he needs the bullet IMO.
    FFS he is playing Dodd every week. The short term plan would be to have another forward or Aaron Smith to spell Roby. He has played guys like Welsby and Simm when he could have just plugged a gap with a second rower. Claiming that Woolf is picking his team sort term it just utter bo*****s.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    O

    Wellens the player is one of my all time favourites. As a person he seems modest despite his undoubted ability - just like Roby. They’re both absolute club legends. However, isn’t Wellens our attack coach and where is our attack? I don’t know enough about how the club operates in terms of coaching staff. How much influence does he have and is our current bluntness/lack of variety down to him or to Woolf or is it down to our aging squad? I would be delighted if Wellens got the top job and succeeded but it would be terrible if he failed.

    For my part my top signing would be Sean Long in some capacity. It may be wishful thinking hoping he might come back but I think our attack stopped firing on all cylinders when he left and we still had Holbrook at that point.
    Agree with all of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks Smith would be a decent option at 9?

    I like his distribution and he seems a quick thinker. He's not a lightning runner, but no slouch.

    His development has been stunted by both Woolf & Holbrook wanting to run Roby into the ground, and latterly by playing a scrum half as the sub hooker (but only giving him 15/20 mins a game). If it's been decided that Smith absolutely isn't the answer, then we should be seeing if Eaves has what it takes.

    Within the club they see Smith as the next 9, but were expecting Roby to play a part next year. I think he needs to be given a decent run.


    I'm not really happy at how, well into a season where we need a new 7 and 9, we have no idea if the youngsters groomed to take over are capable of doing so.

    Roby's looking knackered and, in attack, he's making no impact and his distribution has diminished. Yet not only is he still picked week after week, but plays about 70 minutes a game. Fages is almost certainly leaving yet playing every minute of every game. We have a playoff system that allows you the luxury of losing half a dozen or so games and still being in prime position come the playoffs.

    He can be applauded for bringing Welsby through (although last season was more by necessity through injury), and I guess Dodd is getting some gametime.

    But the overall impression is that Woolf is trying to keep his win percentage as high as possible, whilst disregarding the strategy for future success.

    This isn't just about getting Smith/Eaves and Dodd gametime in their correct positions, it's finding out whether they look worth giving a first XIII shirt to next season, or we need to go into the transfer market for replacements.

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    The short term is in less than a month. Besides Roby none of our players has a Challenge Cup Winners medal and for the British Players that will be in effect a full house of medals.

    The club I feel will take that for this season as job done. Of course they would like a treble but I don't see the win at all costs in the Saints culture. I cant have it all ways so would rather that than the poisonous Wigan culture of "I'm giving you licence to do whatever.

    Squad wise. When you play Louie as a starting prop you are light. The two second row signings have been totally underwhelming and we have a world class centre listening too much to Widnes based former players, whose careers are down the pan, compared to how his could be.

    I do sadly think if we win the CC that could be it for a while. Coaches come and go, Wolfe for me is OK, better than Royce, Potter, Kez. Maybe on a par with Brown.

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    In The South Stand Nickles Forearm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The short term is in less than a month. Besides Roby none of our players has a Challenge Cup Winners medal and for the British Players that will be in effect a full house of medals.

    The club I feel will take that for this season as job done. Of course they would like a treble but I don't see the win at all costs in the Saints culture. I cant have it all ways so would rather that than the poisonous Wigan culture of "I'm giving you licence to do whatever.

    Squad wise. When you play Louie as a starting prop you are light. The two second row signings have been totally underwhelming and we have a world class centre listening too much to Widnes based former players, whose careers are down the pan, compared to how his could be.

    I do sadly think if we win the CC that could be it for a while. Coaches come and go, Wolfe for me is OK, better than Royce, Potter, Kez. Maybe on a par with Brown.
    Mick Potter had a shi** squad, Nathan Brown you could argue likewise and still won a grand final. KC was admittedly awful as was Royce. I hate Wigan and I hate there cheap shots but I do respect there play for the shirt win at all costs mentality they had under Shaun Wane. There fans respected that also and it breeds that winning culture of do it for your mate, do it for the shirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    The short term is in less than a month. Besides Roby none of our players has a Challenge Cup Winners medal and for the British Players that will be in effect a full house of medals.

    The club I feel will take that for this season as job done. Of course they would like a treble but I don't see the win at all costs in the Saints culture. I cant have it all ways so would rather that than the poisonous Wigan culture of "I'm giving you licence to do whatever.

    Squad wise. When you play Louie as a starting prop you are light. The two second row signings have been totally underwhelming and we have a world class centre listening too much to Widnes based former players, whose careers are down the pan, compared to how his could be.

    I do sadly think if we win the CC that could be it for a while. Coaches come and go, Wolfe for me is OK, better than Royce, Potter, Kez. Maybe on a par with Brown.
    Reading posts on various threads I think that a win against Castleford is being taken for granted. I don’t feel that confident. I hope that the players go into the game expecting a contest and ready to deal with whatever Powell’s game plan may be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    Reading posts on various threads I think that a win against Castleford is being taken for granted. I don’t feel that confident. I hope that the players go into the game expecting a contest and ready to deal with whatever Powell’s game plan may be.
    You are absolutely right my friend. I know it was a semi final but Saints V Trinity 1979 we went to Leeds thinking we just turn up here. We lost and that was basically that for twenty years. HKR at Leeds in 82 we turned up knowing we had little chance. I think this final is pivotal and NO it is not a forgone conclusion. If we play like last night it will be in the balance. I dont think Cas can defend overly well for 80 so we have that in our favour.

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    Whilst I do agree with a lot of DD’s player appraisals and current state of the club, let’s not get too carried away.

    Transition for Saints will be a few years finishing 3rd or 4th and a few decent cup runs making the quarters/semis. Pretty much where Wire are now and they’ve spent fortunes.

    We may well go a few baron years without a trophy but let’s be honest 80 percent of the league would swap places with us in a heartbeat.

    Saints will always be competitive because of the infrastructure of the club and the youth development which a lot of other clubs neglect. Most clubs will suffer financially due to the recent pandemic and it will be more important now more than ever to produce and develop your own talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parky151277 View Post
    Whilst I do agree with a lot of DD’s player appraisals and current state of the club, let’s not get too carried away.

    Transition for Saints will be a few years finishing 3rd or 4th and a few decent cup runs making the quarters/semis. Pretty much where Wire are now and they’ve spent fortunes.

    We may well go a few baron years without a trophy but let’s be honest 80 percent of the league would swap places with us in a heartbeat.

    Saints will always be competitive because of the infrastructure of the club and the youth development which a lot of other clubs neglect. Most clubs will suffer financially due to the recent pandemic and it will be more important now more than ever to produce and develop your own talent.
    That's ok then

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    has Dodd ever even played at scrum half at SL level? We could be going into 2022 with a first choice scrum half with zero top level experience if Fages does leave.

    If Fages is leaving, after the cup final we need to get Dodd playing every week at 7 to get him used to playing there.
    "If you're going to strive for a change then you have to keep going upwards,"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hemmings' Wig View Post
    has Dodd ever even played at scrum half at SL level? We could be going into 2022 with a first choice scrum half with zero top level experience if Fages does leave.

    If Fages is leaving, after the cup final we need to get Dodd playing every week at 7 to get him used to playing there.
    Played scrum half against Salford but they targeted him all game and had to make around 38 tackles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2112_Saint View Post
    That's ok then
    I’m not saying it’s ok, I’m just adding some perspective.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    I think other threads cover the style of play,

    ......

    so if anybody can tell me that I am, well, IÂ’d rather be wrong, quite frankly. :-)
    An excellent post by DD considered , measured but pulls no punches.

    I agree with pretty much all of it. No need to rehash parts of it. DD nailed it.



    Couple of observations.

    A rebuild or transition is usually built around a coach.
    I take the view that Woolf is not the coach for Saints transition or not.

    The option of the club usually has an activation part way through the season.
    Be interesting to know if this date has passed and whether it has been activated
    (and has he signed or not)

    I think that the development of a strategy can't really start until Woolf has gone.

    Along with the a decision on the Head coach and playing staff , I think a critical review of
    the rest of the coaching establishment is needed.

    They are like the Whitehall civil servants Governments come and go while they remain.
    The boot room is a powerful entity and largely goes under the radar.

    The point regarding Wellens raised by another poster is noteworthy.

    Wellens has a job for life as one of the assistants.
    Not really in his interests to take the Head coach role.
    By taking it he would effectively be giving Saints two/three years notice of his departure. Unlikely.

    If he is the attack coach that raises some other specific questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    FFS he is playing Dodd every week. The short term plan would be to have another forward or Aaron Smith to spell Roby. He has played guys like Welsby and Simm when he could have just plugged a gap with a second rower. Claiming that Woolf is picking his team sort term it just utter bo*****s.
    Yes mate, utter bollocks because those young players are the best options. Welsby is the best centre at the club on current form, Simm has barely played and there's no real difference between Dodd and Smith only Dodd can cover more positions off the bench. You're only having a pop because I said you were talking shite earlier.

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    Moderator Div's Avatar
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    I don’t agree with Joe Batchelor assessment. I think he’s progressing nicely and worth sticking with for a spell.

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    Part of the problem is that these days we expect success every year.

    Years ago it seemed more cyclical, it would take a few years to build a team, we'd win a view trophies then that team would break up and we'd start again.

    We will have to rebuild eventually, we may have a few years of disappointments but that make thes success even sweeter.

    I've been watching Saints since 1957, I'm sure some historian can work out how many major trophies we've won in that time but it's not been too bad being a Saints fan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I don’t agree with Joe Batchelor assessment. I think he’s progressing nicely and worth sticking with for a spell.
    Yeah, I must have missed that. He puts himself about a bit and was unlucky last night not to score. He does have a mistake in him but he's not on his own with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I don’t agree with Joe Batchelor assessment. I think he’s progressing nicely and worth sticking with for a spell.
    I think you're correct. He's not had much chance yet, a few bit parts is all really. He works hard & gets stuck in, maybe he doesn't grab peoples attention like Bentley for instance but I would like to see him given some extended game time. Hopefully he will be used to give Joel Thompson some much needed recovery time. He's a big lad now so will be able to hold his own in the big time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    O

    Wellens the player is one of my all time favourites. As a person he seems modest despite his undoubted ability - just like Roby. They’re both absolute club legends. However, isn’t Wellens our attack coach and where is our attack? I don’t know enough about how the club operates in terms of coaching staff. How much influence does he have and is our current bluntness/lack of variety down to him or to Woolf or is it down to our aging squad? I would be delighted if Wellens got the top job and succeeded but it would be terrible if he failed.

    For my part my top signing would be Sean Long in some capacity. It may be wishful thinking hoping he might come back but I think our attack stopped firing on all cylinders when he left and we still had Holbrook at that point.
    I've never really understood that 'attack coach-Wellens' and 'defence coach-Long' thing as you would expect it to be the exact opposite, unless it's just a job title and they all used to all 'muck in' together.
    It would worry me if PW were to be promoted too soon for the reasons you state. I think he needs to spread his wing a little, then come back when he's the done deal.
    Maybe we'll see that with Long?

    It's no secret that the Virus has had a big impact on Club £££, and I expect to see some belt tightening over the next season or so, depending on how things develop.
    Don't be surprised if we do appoint/promote/develop more from within, as we did following the new stadium build.

    As for KW, I actually think he's doing an OK job with our younger players like Dodd, by not bringing him in too quickly. Something we have perhaps been guilty of in the past with the likes of Richardson?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I don’t agree with Joe Batchelor assessment. I think he’s progressing nicely and worth sticking with for a spell.
    He,s improving as he gets more game time, has some aggression in him and more of an attacking forward, still work in progress though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    I don’t agree with Joe Batchelor assessment. I think he’s progressing nicely and worth sticking with for a spell.
    I posted in another thread, but he was the only Saints player that made a break yesterday. He deserves another season to prove his worth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamous Grouse View Post
    Part of the problem is that these days we expect success every year.

    Years ago it seemed more cyclical, it would take a few years to build a team, we'd win a view trophies then that team would break up and we'd start again.

    We will have to rebuild eventually, we may have a few years of disappointments but that make thes success even sweeter.

    I've been watching Saints since 1957, I'm sure some historian can work out how many major trophies we've won in that time but it's not been too bad being a Saints fan.
    I'm not sure you're right, if it was all about success where is the criticism of the clubs lack of success in the Challenge cup?

    If anything it's those people who are defending Woolf that are only interested in success, his critics are talking about our style of play not trophies.





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    Last edited by Buddy; 19th June 2021 at 00:53.

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    Dodd should be given a start at 7 and Theo goes to hooker. Roby goes to the bench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    Dodd should be given a start at 7 and Theo goes to hooker. Roby goes to the bench.

    I think Smith is worth more play time. He strikes me as a good player and works hard when given the chance. As regards Thompson, you would barely know he was on the Park.

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    I don’t see the point in playing Dodd at 9 just to give him some sort of game time. Roby, Eaves, Smith, Fages should be at 9 before Dodd. If Dodds not playing 7 then don’t play him at all.
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