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Thread: Woolfy Out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    I do find this thread a bit embarrassing. Woolfe, whichever way you dress it up, got us to a Grand Final and yes we actually won it, against our greatest rivals. With a fair wind behind us we should win the Challenge Cup. I see a lot of good in what he has done. Justin got out with the Grand Final win against Salford, superb yes, but in reality we didn't win what we should have with that team at its peak. Justin lovely guy, great personality, bottler?
    I haven't given up on Woolf, because despite inheriting a Champion side he has had a few things go against him. The stop/start issues with Covid, the rule changes which I think have made the referees even more inept, and a glut of injuries forcing constant reshuffles. All that on top of an ageing team. Am I happy with the entertainment and some of the selections - no we could be playing a lot more open and the last game was as bad as anything KC churned out. We seem to have no moves in the 3/4s other than a JL cut out pass, or a drop off to a forward. Why when a couple of games have been won with 10 minutes to go, have we not moved Dodd into 7 and not given Norman 10 mins. Norman may not be good enough, but he is in the squad and will be needed sometime. Do I think we should get rid of Woolf, at this time definitely not, Do I think he needs to change his tactics for next season definitely yes.

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    Double post
    Last edited by Belgian Saint; 21st June 2021 at 11:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I haven't given up on Woolf, because despite inheriting a Champion side he has had a few things go against him. The stop/start issues with Covid, the rule changes which I think have made the referees even more inept, and a glut of injuries forcing constant reshuffles. All that on top of an ageing team. Am I happy with the entertainment and some of the selections - no we could be playing a lot more open and the last game was as bad as anything KC churned out. We seem to have no moves in the 3/4s other than a JL cut out pass, or a drop off to a forward. Why when a couple of games have been won with 10 minutes to go, have we not moved Dodd into 7 and not given Norman 10 mins. Norman may not be good enough, but he is in the squad and will be needed sometime. Do I think we should get rid of Woolf, at this time definitely not, Do I think he needs to change his tactics for next season definitely yes.
    I agree with you on the need to change tactics but it would help if every RL coach would do the same. We might then get some pleasure and excitement out of watching. However, we would look daft getting rid of Woolf and it would damage reputation in recruitment terms. In terms of results he has been successful and on paper a decision to sack him would appear perverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I agree with you on the need to change tactics but it would help if every RL coach would do the same. We might then get some pleasure and excitement out of watching. However, we would look daft getting rid of Woolf and it would damage reputation in recruitment terms. In terms of results he has been successful and on paper a decision to sack him would appear perverse.
    I accept that nearly all coaches have adopted this style of play and that the modern game is more compressed and defensively orientated, but other coaches have done so out of necessity really because they haven't got the teams to go toe to toe with Saints, Wigan, Wire etc so a defensive compact system gives them a better chance. But for the better teams it seems counterproductive, because implementing those tactics makes it easier for everyone else to do the same (both in terms of their abilities to compete and also trying to copy the big teams) and means things will never change. We are seeing the better sides basically playing into the hands of the lesser sides by playing a style that can only benefit the lesser sides in terms of their chances to keep the game tight both on the field and on the scoreboard. The only way out of it is if some coaches at the big sides had the courage to be a bit different, because it would force others to have to adapt if they no longer felt that a compressed style of play could get rewards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Another myth. They had a monster pack and used it

    Go back and watch their games, when they played Australia in 2019 there was hardly more than one pass per tackle, sound familiar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I agree with you on the need to change tactics but it would help if every RL coach would do the same. We might then get some pleasure and excitement out of watching. However, we would look daft getting rid of Woolf and it would damage reputation in recruitment terms. In terms of results he has been successful and on paper a decision to sack him would appear perverse.
    I get what you mean mate and I don't think Woolf's job is seriously under threat at the moment. However, I'd be surprised if the club isn't aware that fans aren't particularly happy with him in general. I'm not sure how things work within the club but I would hope Eammon/Rush have had the coaching team in to discuss current tactics and fan discontent especially after what happened with KC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I accept that nearly all coaches have adopted this style of play and that the modern game is more compressed and defensively orientated, but other coaches have done so out of necessity really because they haven't got the teams to go toe to toe with Saints, Wigan, Wire etc so a defensive compact system gives them a better chance. But for the better teams it seems counterproductive, because implementing those tactics makes it easier for everyone else to do the same (both in terms of their abilities to compete and also trying to copy the big teams) and means things will never change. We are seeing the better sides basically playing into the hands of the lesser sides by playing a style that can only benefit the lesser sides in terms of their chances to keep the game tight both on the field and on the scoreboard. The only way out of it is if some coaches at the big sides had the courage to be a bit different, because it would force others to have to adapt if they no longer felt that a compressed style of play could get rewards.
    I think we agree in terms of a desire to see entertaining rugby but Woolf is following a sort of coaching orthodoxy that defence is supreme and attack secondary. I think that needs to change across the board if the game is to thrive. The authorities also need to recognise that there is discontent among fans and change the way the game is refereed. The PTB needs speeding up and refs need to start penalising flops again. I can’t remember when I last saw a flop penalised by means of a penalty or a six again (which admittedly is harder to identify). If the refs think they are levelling the playing field between unequal teams by slowing down the PTB they need to be told that they are actually making the game boring and strangling it to death. I want to see a few 50 - 0 scorelines. Sod equality.

    I’ve said on this or another thread that only Tony Smith and Darryl Powell seem to want to play what I regard as entertaining rugby. I think both know what the public want to see and sometimes manage to deliver it with far more limited resources than at Saints. They both also know (I think it’s harder for Smith) when to reign it in and play more conservatively. I’m not sure that Woolf has any ideas about attack. He has been valuable in strengthening our defence and, I think, in giving us a bit of steel when things aren’t going well but I think he needs a half back’s vision to help him out. I’d love to have Longy back (somebody might raise lack of impact at Leeds but he hasn’t had everyone available) but, if not him, Lee Briers appears to be a free agent from next season.

    I also think we could have played an open game against lesser opposition but does Woolf know how? The first game after lockdown (am I right remembering it was the Leeds game where Regan ran riot) suggests that he does but I’m not sure. Anyway, refereeing and the policing of the six again has changed radically since then and it may be that he just hasn’t got the ability to adapt.

    I’m certainly not happy with the way we play but still maintain that you really can’t get rid of someone who, on paper at least, is a successful coach.

    PS I think a flop should still be a penalty but is it now treated as slowing down the PTB and therefore six again?
    Last edited by Suttoner; 21st June 2021 at 18:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I get what you mean mate and I don't think Woolf's job is seriously under threat at the moment. However, I'd be surprised if the club isn't aware that fans aren't particularly happy with him in general. I'm not sure how things work within the club but I would hope Eammon/Rush have had the coaching team in to discuss current tactics and fan discontent especially after what happened with KC.
    I agree.

    It took me a long time to accept KC’s failings because I wanted him to succeed. Every time I went to a game or watched on TV I kept hoping something would change, that there’d be a breakthrough but there never was.

    Woolf has had a remarkable impact on defence but has taken us backwards in terms of pure enjoyment and excitement. I’m sure a lot of purists love a close run arm wrestle and, to be honest, I enjoyed the Grand Final but I also have this child like desire to see tries being scored from all over the place. I don’t like sitting there thinking that we seem devoid of ideas when we’re literally camped in an opponent’s 20 and thinking “we’re never going to score”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I agree.

    It took me a long time to accept KC’s failings because I wanted him to succeed. Every time I went to a game or watched on TV I kept hoping something would change, that there’d be a breakthrough but there never was.

    Woolf has had a remarkable impact on defence but has taken us backwards in terms of pure enjoyment and excitement. I’m sure a lot of purists love a close run arm wrestle and, to be honest, I enjoyed the Grand Final but I also have this child like desire to see tries being scored from all over the place. I don’t like sitting there thinking that we seem devoid of ideas when we’re literally camped in an opponent’s 20 and thinking “we’re never going to score”.
    I couldn't have put it better myself.

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    I’m not enamoured by Woolf’s style of rugby but show me a more successful coach since he’s been here, when teams do beat us, we don’t give it up easy. Brutal and relentless in defence, a bit clunky and predictable in attack.

    Woolf is a grand final winner and has a chance to win the CC. He’s done what’s been asked of him and his tenure, as any coach, will be measured in trophies ��

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintsaregods View Post
    I’m not enamoured by Woolf’s style of rugby but show me a more successful coach since he’s been here, when teams do beat us, we don’t give it up easy. Brutal and relentless in defence, a bit clunky and predictable in attack.

    Woolf is a grand final winner and has a chance to win the CC. He’s done what’s been asked of him and his tenure, as any coach, will be measured in trophies ��
    If you compare the other clubs losses compared to the Saints losses there is a distint difference. Catalans, Wigan, Warrington, Hull, Castleford have been on the receiving end of some hammerings, Saints on the other hand only lost by 4pts in 2 games and very much so contributed to their own downfall in the process. The Catalan game was a bit controversal in some ref decisions and lost by 2 conversions in the end, the Warrington one you could say Warrington deserved to win with their defence albeit using feigning injuries conveniently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    If you compare the other clubs losses compared to the Saints losses there is a distint difference. Catalans, Wigan, Warrington, Hull, Castleford have been on the receiving end of some hammerings, Saints on the other hand only lost by 4pts in 2 games and very much so contributed to their own downfall in the process. The Catalan game was a bit controversal in some ref decisions and lost by 2 conversions in the end, the Warrington one you could say Warrington deserved to win with their defence albeit using feigning injuries conveniently.
    Watch out Stiddy, you will have Wolfie McWolf questioning your ethics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintsaregods View Post
    I’m not enamoured by Woolf’s style of rugby but show me a more successful coach since he’s been here, when teams do beat us, we don’t give it up easy. Brutal and relentless in defence, a bit clunky and predictable in attack.

    Woolf is a grand final winner and has a chance to win the CC. He’s done what’s been asked of him and his tenure, as any coach, will be measured in trophies ��
    Maybe I am bored of the game as a whole then, and I am taking my frustrations out on Saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintsaregods View Post
    I’m not enamoured by Woolf’s style of rugby but show me a more successful coach since he’s been here, when teams do beat us, we don’t give it up easy. Brutal and relentless in defence, a bit clunky and predictable in attack.

    Woolf is a grand final winner and has a chance to win the CC. He’s done what’s been asked of him and his tenure, as any coach, will be measured in trophies ��
    That is fair if he leaves after winning a grand final and a cc, you have to say he has been a success

    But some of the rugby we serve up is a pretty poor watch, there must be some one who can get us winning trophy's and playing decent attacking rugby

    I'm also worried about his lack of urgency in getting players to either sign to extend their contract or getting replacements lined up

    Then again if he is off in the summer he proably doesn't really have an interest in the long term at the club

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    Then again if he is off in the summer he proably doesn't really have an interest in the long term at the club
    I can't imagine he cares about where the club will be in 3-4 years time, but he has no reason to really, it's his job to win us stuff whilst he is here, nothing more. I can't imagine Holbrook spends his days on the Gold Coast worrying about Saints, and he was a fella who looked like he loved it here and understood the culture of the club, so I doubt Woolf will even take a glance in the rearview mirror when he leaves.

    Everything long term is for McManus and Rush to deal with, and in giving coaches 2 or 3 year deals they are saying that either it isn't an issue for them either or that they are supremely confident that the club can keep changing coach every few years. Their track record isn't great to be honest. We are a club that has a culture of winning stuff, and we have an aura that means we'll likely contend most years, but the coaching decisions since Anderson have smacked of short term fillers. The only coach we've hired since DA that could have been a 10 year coach and built a legacy was KC, and he was a disaster, so maybe they feel they were burnt by that and are happy with the 2 year Aussie appointments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I can't imagine he cares about where the club will be in 3-4 years time, but he has no reason to really, it's his job to win us stuff whilst he is here, nothing more. I can't imagine Holbrook spends his days on the Gold Coast worrying about Saints, and he was a fella who looked like he loved it here and understood the culture of the club, so I doubt Woolf will even take a glance in the rearview mirror when he leaves.

    Everything long term is for McManus and Rush to deal with, and in giving coaches 2 or 3 year deals they are saying that either it isn't an issue for them either or that they are supremely confident that the club can keep changing coach every few years. Their track record isn't great to be honest. We are a club that has a culture of winning stuff, and we have an aura that means we'll likely contend most years, but the coaching decisions since Anderson have smacked of short term fillers. The only coach we've hired since DA that could have been a 10 year coach and built a legacy was KC, and he was a disaster, so maybe they feel they were burnt by that and are happy with the 2 year Aussie appointments.
    This is where the club can’t win though and I do have sympathy.

    For example, Watson was very nearly the coach before Woolf, literally a hairs breath between them. Let’s say Watson was the coach, I guarantee fans would’ve been saying “oh we’ve got a British coach on the cheap, why can’t we get a top Aussie”

    Then when we do get a top Aussie coach and they don’t last longer than a couple of years, fans say “we should hire a British coach”


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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    This is where the club can’t win though and I do have sympathy.

    For example, Watson was very nearly the coach before Woolf, literally a hairs breath between them. Let’s say Watson was the coach, I guarantee fans would’ve been saying “oh we’ve got a British coach on the cheap, why can’t we get a top Aussie”

    Then when we do get a top Aussie coach and they don’t last longer than a couple of years, fans say “we should hire a British coach”
    Had we got Watson I don't think too many would have thought we'd gone cheap, and I think had we played a decent brand of RL most would have accepted he was here for a good while and was building something. I'd argue that we haven't hired a top Aussie at any stage anyway really. Potter, Simmons, Brown, Holbrook and Woolf all had logical plus points at various times, but they were either assistant coaches down there or fellas who had failed in NRL roles previously, and I doubt we were competing with an NRL club offering them a head coaching position when we got any of them, and that for me is the definition of a top Aussie coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I can't imagine he cares about where the club will be in 3-4 years time, but he has no reason to really, it's his job to win us stuff whilst he is here, nothing more. I can't imagine Holbrook spends his days on the Gold Coast worrying about Saints, and he was a fella who looked like he loved it here and understood the culture of the club, so I doubt Woolf will even take a glance in the rearview mirror when he leaves.

    Everything long term is for McManus and Rush to deal with, and in giving coaches 2 or 3 year deals they are saying that either it isn't an issue for them either or that they are supremely confident that the club can keep changing coach every few years. Their track record isn't great to be honest. We are a club that has a culture of winning stuff, and we have an aura that means we'll likely contend most years, but the coaching decisions since Anderson have smacked of short term fillers. The only coach we've hired since DA that could have been a 10 year coach and built a legacy was KC, and he was a disaster, so maybe they feel they were burnt by that and are happy with the 2 year Aussie appointments.

    I don't recall us ever having a 10-year coach, and that goes back to 1984.

    I do think coaches have 'shelf lives' at clubs, because not only do you have to rebuild a new team at some point, you need to adapt tactics to cope with rule changes and tactical evolution. And that applies across all sports (unless you're in that top echelon like Ferguson or Wenger in football)

    I'm more than happy with very good Aussie coaches coming over for 2/3 years and freshening things up, using their different contacts to entice players over. Course, that's the utopia; the reality is that you as a club need to keep getting the appointment right.

    I don't dislike Woolf, and really want him to do well. His credentials in terms of organisation and defence are fantastic. But our attack is, as everyone knows, lacking in imagination and creativity. I think he needs a top attacking coach, and delegate to them (if the current one is Wellens, then he's either not being given total responsibility, which means Woolf struggles with attack strategy/tactics, or he's not up to the job)

    Finally, as people are bringing up Cunningham's name, let's remember that it wasn't his boring, one-out tactics that sealed his fate, but a combination of our ••••-poor performances on the field; his atrocious man-management (unless you were one of his buddies, then the sun shone out your arse) - especially regarding the youngsters; and his even worse attitude toward the fans (who are the customers that paid his wages).

    Woolf is by a million degrees a better coach than Cunningham was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I don't recall us ever having a 10-year coach, and that goes back to 1984.
    Yes, fair enough, 5-6 years then, but you get my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    If you compare the other clubs losses compared to the Saints losses there is a distint difference. Catalans, Wigan, Warrington, Hull, Castleford have been on the receiving end of some hammerings, Saints on the other hand only lost by 4pts in 2 games and very much so contributed to their own downfall in the process. The Catalan game was a bit controversal in some ref decisions and lost by 2 conversions in the end, the Warrington one you could say Warrington deserved to win with their defence albeit using feigning injuries conveniently.
    I thought wire deserved to win, better both sides of the ball and I agree that we are tough to beat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton View Post
    Maybe I am bored of the game as a whole then, and I am taking my frustrations out on Saints.
    Me too and I’m not a fan of his style but it seems to me that it’s a results business first, entertainment second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintsaregods View Post
    Me too and I’m not a fan of his style but it seems to me that it’s a results business first, entertainment second.

    The issue is, I think, we've always had sides that are coached 'spoiling tactics' and focus on defence. But there were always other teams that played attacking rugby, and the best of these would generally triumph more often than not. Now the rules of the game and their interpretation are stacked heavily in favour of defence, so almost all teams are now coached to focus primarily on defence.

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    I know people seem to think we have the players to roll over the league playing free flowing rugby but is it actually true?

    Coote is miles off the pace at FB and looks like a player about to retire - which is exactly what he is.

    You can’t go five minutes without reading someone say how limited Fages is as a 7.

    We’ve had stacks of disruption across the backs, including losing our most potent strike centre.

    We’ve lost a strike back rower in Zeb and replaced him with a hugely inferior player.

    Roby slows down every year and whilst still a good player carries far less threat than even two years ago.

    We’ve lost a couple of our top props in Thompson and Lees (and Graham), although I like Paasi.

    Maybe we are playing less rugby because there Is less rugby in the team?

    Woolf will be judged at the end of his tenure but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think a new coach would suddenly mean flair city with the same players.

    Add to that I also think we lose the GF last year under another coach - the defensive performance was immense as it is most weeks to be fair.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I know people seem to think we have the players to roll over the league playing free flowing rugby but is it actually true?

    Coote is miles off the pace at FB and looks like a player about to retire - which is exactly what he is.

    You can’t go five minutes without reading someone say how limited Fages is as a 7.

    We’ve had stacks of disruption across the backs, including losing our most potent strike centre.

    We’ve lost a strike back rower in Zeb and replaced him with a hugely inferior player.

    Roby slows down every year and whilst still a good player carries far less threat than even two years ago.

    We’ve lost a couple of our top props in Thompson and Lees (and Graham), although I like Paasi.

    Maybe we are playing less rugby because there Is less rugby in the team?

    Woolf will be judged at the end of his tenure but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think a new coach would suddenly mean flair city with the same players.

    Add to that I also think we lose the GF last year under another coach - the defensive performance was immense as it is most weeks to be fair.


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    Sorry FTV can't see what it is Paasi offers, He does a couple of big take ups then goes missing. He looked knackered against Warrington, Easily bullied. Not a fan ATM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I know people seem to think we have the players to roll over the league playing free flowing rugby but is it actually true?
    It's a valid point looking at the realities right now, but the difference in the way the team was being set out was visible in the opening weeks of last season, so some 15-16 months ago, when alot of the current day concerns (Coote slowing down, Roby nearing the end, Taia retiring etc) were not nearly as relevant. If we allow Woolf the benefit of the doubt for not believing his current side is equipped to play any other way we then have to give him stick for not asking them to when they were IMO.

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