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Thread: Woolfy Out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  1. #176
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    I definitely think we'd have lost last year's GF under Holbrook, as good as we were under him we're much more gritty and resilient under Woolf

    We don't lost too often by double digits under him anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I know people seem to think we have the players to roll over the league playing free flowing rugby but is it actually true?

    Coote is miles off the pace at FB and looks like a player about to retire - which is exactly what he is.

    You canít go five minutes without reading someone say how limited Fages is as a 7.

    Weíve had stacks of disruption across the backs, including losing our most potent strike centre.

    Weíve lost a strike back rower in Zeb and replaced him with a hugely inferior player.

    Roby slows down every year and whilst still a good player carries far less threat than even two years ago.

    Weíve lost a couple of our top props in Thompson and Lees (and Graham), although I like Paasi.

    Maybe we are playing less rugby because there Is less rugby in the team?

    Woolf will be judged at the end of his tenure but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think a new coach would suddenly mean flair city with the same players.

    Add to that I also think we lose the GF last year under another coach - the defensive performance was immense as it is most weeks to be fair.


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    Good post.

    I tend to think we have the best squad in terms of players who can play entertaining rugby but, when you put it like that, it's a compelling argument, and perhaps I'm still viewing players from their abilities a couple of seasons ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rommel View Post
    Sorry FTV can't see what it is Paasi offers, He does a couple of big take ups then goes missing. He looked knackered against Warrington, Easily bullied. Not a fan ATM.
    I agree, he's done very little to me.

  4. #179
    really is sorry Reacher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    It's a valid point looking at the realities right now, but the difference in the way the team was being set out was visible in the opening weeks of last season, so some 15-16 months ago, when alot of the current day concerns (Coote slowing down, Roby nearing the end, Taia retiring etc) were not nearly as relevant. If we allow Woolf the benefit of the doubt for not believing his current side is equipped to play any other way we then have to give him stick for not asking them to when they were IMO.
    You can counteract that Graham though by looking at our attack immediately after the first lockdown. Catalan and Leeds are just two examples of sides that we blew away and scored a lot of points in both.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I know people seem to think we have the players to roll over the league playing free flowing rugby but is it actually true?

    Coote is miles off the pace at FB and looks like a player about to retire - which is exactly what he is.

    You can’t go five minutes without reading someone say how limited Fages is as a 7.

    We’ve had stacks of disruption across the backs, including losing our most potent strike centre.

    We’ve lost a strike back rower in Zeb and replaced him with a hugely inferior player.

    Roby slows down every year and whilst still a good player carries far less threat than even two years ago.

    We’ve lost a couple of our top props in Thompson and Lees (and Graham), although I like Paasi.

    Maybe we are playing less rugby because there Is less rugby in the team?

    Woolf will be judged at the end of his tenure but I think we are kidding ourselves if we think a new coach would suddenly mean flair city with the same players.

    Add to that I also think we lose the GF last year under another coach - the defensive performance was immense as it is most weeks to be fair.


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    Totally agree, I.ve been raising similar points for a while now but some just ignore the reality that we no longer have any strike pivotal players, the poor form of Coote and Roby is killing us at the moment for any creative or attacking play we only have a one man show in Lomax.

    All we get from some posters is huffing and puffing in that we should be more creative and entertaining and its all Woolf's fault when in reality we just don't have effective players to play free flowing rugby and Superleague this season does not encourage it. I don't even think a Holbrook return with a big magic wand could improve us so much in the short term, we need a major overhaul especially in those most important pivotal positions that promote creativity.

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    It's been said many times before on here, if teams stop Lomax, they stop Saints. Theo, for all his work & endeavour, is a robotic player, he plays by numbers, not off the cuff. Coote has been excellent for us but needs replacing & Roby has been worked to death by previous coaches. The evidence is clear, we never go to our three quarters to produce something early in a set because our pivots can't visualise or alternatively achieve the space to give them an opening from distance. Instead, we persist with the Theo crap kick on the 5th & the cut out pass to the winger.
    Our pivots need refreshing, plain & simple.

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    Regardless of your thoughts on KW, does no one else find it a little odd that we are almost into July and there's no talk of who will be coach next season? As far as i'm aware didn't KW sign a two year deal with an option for a third in our favour? Not seen any speculation about this at all.

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    really is sorry Reacher's Avatar
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    Woolf will be here next season so like it or not heís here for another year.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Woolf will be here next season so like it or not he’s here for another year.
    Of that I have no doubt.

    On your other point, you're not the only person who has mentioned how we came back from lockdown and looked ahead of everyone else in fitness and our readiness to exploit the new rules, but I wonder why people mention it because it lasted a matter of weeks with fairly dour stuff for months before it and after it. I do not find the argument that we looked great for 3-4 weeks that convincing, because either you're saying I should judge him on a handful of games and not the 30-odd others, or you're saying that was the real Saints for those few weeks which leads me to ask where they went.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Of that I have no doubt.

    On your other point, you're not the only person who has mentioned how we came back from lockdown and looked ahead of everyone else in fitness and our readiness to exploit the new rules, but I wonder why people mention it because it lasted a matter of weeks with fairly dour stuff for months before it and after it. I do not find the argument that we looked great for 3-4 weeks that convincing, because either you're saying I should judge him on a handful of games and not the 30-odd others, or you're saying that was the real Saints for those few weeks which leads me to ask where they went.
    Yet apart from those two results that I mentioned, we also had the following after thoseÖ

    48 points against Cats in the play off SF
    40 points against Leeds again
    48 against Wakefield
    54 against Huddersfield
    32 against HKR

    So itís hardly like we didnít rack up decent scores. Thatís 7 games in total that we scored a lot of points and thatís not taking into account the game against Wiganís reserves.

    By the way Iím not for one minute suggesting that weíve been great in attack this season, we havenít. I totally get that weíve been clunky and agree that we have no creativity or plan B.

    However I feel that criticising our attack last season and comparing it to this season is harsh because we actually did ok last season in terms of putting teams to the sword.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Of that I have no doubt.

    On your other point, you're not the only person who has mentioned how we came back from lockdown and looked ahead of everyone else in fitness and our readiness to exploit the new rules, but I wonder why people mention it because it lasted a matter of weeks with fairly dour stuff for months before it and after it. I do not find the argument that we looked great for 3-4 weeks that convincing, because either you're saying I should judge him on a handful of games and not the 30-odd others, or you're saying that was the real Saints for those few weeks which leads me to ask where they went.
    When I find the McManus video I will post it up on here, basically we had a busted squad and quite a few players didn’t have a proper pre season.
    The COVID break was a blessing in disguise because that time out gave us the pre season what Woolf wanted to get his players up to speed.

    We went on a 10 week scoring spree scoring on average 32 points a game not the 3 to 4 weeks, it was in the last 3 weeks of the 10 week period that teams tried to find a way to slow and spoil our game, it was Hull KR who tried something different and some teams followed that template (Wakefield). Scoring spree was 34-6, 48-0, 10-0, 32-18, 54-6, 21-20 (Hull KR), 42-0, 20-16 (Wakefield), 48-6, 40-8. Topped off in the play off with a 48-2 demolition of the Catalans.

    That didn’t matter so much though with teams started to slow us down because Woolf started to toughen us up defensively for the play offs if he hadn’t done that then we would have probably bottled the Grand Final.

    This season is another chapter of boring Superleague Rugby, if we had 3 or 4 pivotable players at the top of their game we could possibly overcome it but we havn’t so we are very much in an arm wrestle most weeks.


    EDIT: McManus interview with Stuart Pyke explaining the pressures Woolf was in during the first part of the season. Its Saints Premium edition so only subscribers can watch, McManus talks a lot of stuff about Woolf around 3m 20s into the interview.
    https://tv.saintsrlfc.com/2020/12/07...on-the-season/
    Last edited by STIDDY; 23rd June 2021 at 19:48.

  12. #187
    Starting A Programme Collection Saintsaregods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    When I find the McManus video I will post it up on here, basically we had a busted squad and quite a few players didnít have a proper pre season.
    The COVID break was a blessing in disguise because that time out gave us the pre season what Woolf wanted to get his players up to speed.

    We went on a 10 week scoring spree scoring on average 32 points a game not the 3 to 4 weeks, it was in the last 3 weeks of the 10 week period that teams tried to find a way to slow and spoil our game, it was Hull KR who tried something different and some teams followed that template (Wakefield). Scoring spree was 34-6, 48-0, 10-0, 32-18, 54-6, 21-20 (Hull KR), 42-0, 20-16 (Wakefield), 48-6, 40-8. Topped off in the play off with a 48-2 demolition of the Catalans.

    That didnít matter so much though with teams started to slow us down because Woolf started to toughen us up defensively for the play offs if he hadnít done that then we would have probably bottled the Grand Final.

    This season is another chapter of boring Superleague Rugby, if we had 3 or 4 pivotable players at the top of their game we could possibly overcome it but we havnít so we are very much in an arm wrestle most weeks.


    EDIT: McManus interview with Stuart Pyke explaining the pressures Woolf was in during the first part of the season. Its Saints Premium edition so only subscribers can watch, McManus talks a lot of stuff about Woolf around 3m 20s into the interview.
    https://tv.saintsrlfc.com/2020/12/07...on-the-season/
    Cheers STIDDY, fair post too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reacher View Post
    Woolf will be here next season so like it or not he’s here for another year.


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    He is well thought of, personally and professionally by the people running the club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Of that I have no doubt.

    On your other point, you're not the only person who has mentioned how we came back from lockdown and looked ahead of everyone else in fitness and our readiness to exploit the new rules, but I wonder why people mention it because it lasted a matter of weeks with fairly dour stuff for months before it and after it. I do not find the argument that we looked great for 3-4 weeks that convincing, because either you're saying I should judge him on a handful of games and not the 30-odd others, or you're saying that was the real Saints for those few weeks which leads me to ask where they went.

    I've made the point previously, that one of the foundations of our attack is to get quick PTB's from penetrating runs, then build a momentum on the back of that which has the opposition backpeddling and struggling to keep their defensive shape.

    The weeks following lockdown ending, with the introduction of rule changes to stop defences slowing the PTB, allowed this key part of our attack to flourish, and the points followed.


    The Castleford game was the first where the opposition just thought 'f*ck it' and reverted to not quickly clearing the ruck, and the ref generally allowed them. Other teams began to follow, and our attack again started to struggle to get dominance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I've made the point previously, that one of the foundations of our attack is to get quick PTB's from penetrating runs, then build a momentum on the back of that which has the opposition backpeddling and struggling to keep their defensive shape.

    The weeks following lockdown ending, with the introduction of rule changes to stop defences slowing the PTB, allowed this key part of our attack to flourish, and the points followed.


    The Castleford game was the first where the opposition just thought 'f*ck it' and reverted to not quickly clearing the ruck, and the ref generally allowed them. Other teams began to follow, and our attack again started to struggle to get dominance.
    That's spot on.

    However there comes a point when Saints have to move beyond the "the other kids don't play fair , our jonny needs a quick ptb".

    You either find a way to overcome it , or find some alternative tactics that don't rely solely on a quick ptb.

    You can't just keep saying "they won't play nice , that' why we are clunky".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Mander View Post
    That's spot on.

    However there comes a point when Saints have to move beyond the "the other kids don't play fair , our jonny needs a quick ptb".

    You either find a way to overcome it , or find some alternative tactics that don't rely solely on a quick ptb.

    You can't just keep saying "they won't play nice , that' why we are clunky".
    I think we also got to ask the question where is it all going to end, now we have players going down "injured" when a team has momentum. Any worse and I don't think Superleague will be worth watching, will the RFL see that before their is an exodus of fans.

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    As we saw in the game against Warrington the game has moved on in the last year from it being an advantage to get to ground and back up as quickly as possible in order to get go forward and keep the defensive line on the back foot. Now itís more advantageous to stay on your feet until the ref calls held. This means that as the ref calls held your markers arenít set and you often have a 3rd player offside as he retreats. If youíre taken to ground it gives the markers and defence time to set, especially if the ref allows some wrestling and lying on. We havenít adapted to this and although our forwards still often make good metres it means we are still getting slow plays of the ball against a set defensive line. Itís one of the reasons I think Roby has struggled this year, thereís barely ever a retreating defence or unset markers for him to run at.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Mander View Post
    That's spot on.

    However there comes a point when Saints have to move beyond the "the other kids don't play fair , our jonny needs a quick ptb".

    You either find a way to overcome it , or find some alternative tactics that don't rely solely on a quick ptb.

    You can't just keep saying "they won't play nice , that' why we are clunky".

    Don't disagree, and that's a fair criticism of Woolf's coaching and tactics (and presumably Wellens')

    However, as Stiddy says, where's this going to end? The onfield product is boring 99% of the time already. Seems that the RLF won't be content until that 1% has been eradicated.
    I f*cking hate wi*an.

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    Good thread this

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    Worrying quotes from Woolf after the match about "one more year on his contract and really enjoying it" but then goes on to say "would love to have a crack at the NRL" and his family who can't wait to get back home "will dictate what happens" the Aussie Daily Telegraph stating that he's impressed the clubs over there with his success at coaching at St Helens, I doubt whether he will stay another year after next season if a job offer comes, at least our success with Holbrook and Woolf will mean plenty of applicants for the job, looks like player replacement for LMS, Amor, Roby and co.,will also include coach succession as well, but with the grounding that both coaches have given Wellens, he will always be there to steer the club, but perhaps not quite ready for the main job after the experience with Cunningham. Dream team of Wellens and Roby as joint coaches especially as now Wellens also has GB/England experience ?
    Last edited by Woolyback; 12th October 2021 at 08:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woolyback View Post
    Worrying quotes from Woolf after the match about "one more year on his contract and really enjoying it" but then goes on to say "would love to have a crack at the NRL" and his family who can't wait to get back home "will dictate what happens" the Aussie Daily Telegraph stating that he's impressed the clubs over there with his success at coaching at St Helens, I doubt whether he will stay another year after next season if a job offer comes, at least our success with Holbrook and Woolf will mean plenty of applicants for the job, looks like player replacement for LMS, Amor, Roby and co.,will also include coach succession as well, but with the grounding that both coaches have given Wellens, he will always be there to steer the club, but perhaps not quite ready for the main job after the experience with Cunningham
    I donít think itís much of a secret that heís wanted an NRL head coach job but the best way for him to do that is by being successful with us. I canít imagine him staying beyond 2022 and if he does leave for the NRL it will have been on the back of one of the most successful 3 year periods in the clubs history, even if we win nothing next year.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Woolf always comes across as a honest and loyal character who doesn't do mind games, over the last quarter of the season he has looked more relaxed yet at the same time has increased team intensity in games. In his latest podcast he mentioned that he is not going back to Oz for a holiday and wants to take the opportunity to see the rest of the UK and Europe. He also mentioned working more with our younger players this is encouraging as he will be probably be leaving a legacy at the club.

    I can't see Woolf being poached by the NRL for the 2022 season but if he gets us another CC win and heading into the play offs again, he's going to be in high demand come the second half of the season next year. I noticed our players had a song and chorus line "The Big Bad Wolf" and he looked chuffed by the players admiration for him.

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