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Thread: Watching and seeing

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    Default Watching and seeing

    Someone recently posted a snippet about watching a game and seeing one. I'm not tactically or strategically astute when I'm watching Saints. I can see the general patterns during a match, but I miss loads of stuff and only know this when I read it on here. People like YG, DD, Gray and others, with a wide understanding of the sport (from playing and/or coaching), see it in a different way.

    Has anyone got advice about how I can improve my 'seeing' Saints play (and other teams), and what to look out for? People say Rugby League is a simple game, and in some ways it's easy to see why, but there are complexities that I'm missing. I thought of maybe concentrating on one player, but that's not so straightforward when watching on TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canterbredve View Post
    Someone recently posted a snippet about watching a game and seeing one. I'm not tactically or strategically astute when I'm watching Saints. I can see the general patterns during a match, but I miss loads of stuff and only know this when I read it on here. People like YG, DD, Gray and others, with a wide understanding of the sport (from playing and/or coaching), see it in a different way.

    Has anyone got advice about how I can improve my 'seeing' Saints play (and other teams), and what to look out for? People say Rugby League is a simple game, and in some ways it's easy to see why, but there are complexities that I'm missing. I thought of maybe concentrating on one player, but that's not so straightforward when watching on TV.
    I’d get on YouTube and watch analysis videos from both league and union. Gives you a better understanding of why certain plays are effective and how they are set up/executed.

    For a start I’d look at content from YouTube users Contact Coach, Wibble Rugby, Rugby League Coach and Geraint Davies Rugby Coaching & Analysis.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Really handy, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canterbredve View Post
    Someone recently posted a snippet about watching a game and seeing one. I'm not tactically or strategically astute when I'm watching Saints. I can see the general patterns during a match, but I miss loads of stuff and only know this when I read it on here. People like YG, DD, Gray and others, with a wide understanding of the sport (from playing and/or coaching), see it in a different way.

    Has anyone got advice about how I can improve my 'seeing' Saints play (and other teams), and what to look out for? People say Rugby League is a simple game, and in some ways it's easy to see why, but there are complexities that I'm missing. I thought of maybe concentrating on one player, but that's not so straightforward when watching on TV.
    It's something I,ve mentioned quite a few times when discussing games, a lot of people just watch the game by just following the ball and even more so when its on TV and can't get to games to see the whole picture. There is a lot going on away from the ball to load up the defensive line and sometimes we see patterns of 2 plays ahead, started seeing that part of the game with Longy + Martyn up to the present day.

    I also pick out 1 or 2 players in a match to see how they are approaching the game to see their influence pattern on the team, on a negative note Ben Barba after 20 games had an atrocious influence on the team by not getting involved on the attacking patterns which put loads of pressure on Richardson and Lomax, he also turned into a defensive turnstile by his lazy approach to join the defensive line.

    Last year I defended Welsby against some of the doubters on here because he was doing and seeing a lot of positive play despite fans watching him make errors through inexperience. Prior to his injury I was seeing Wingfield doing a lot of good stuff on and off the ball, something Wooolf mentioned also with his progression.

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    Sometimes it's worth recording the game and re-watching the game back by focussing on specific things e.g. defensive or attacking shapes. By focussing on one particular thing you will start to notice certain patterns, go to players etc. Saints for example play a very condensed and narrow defensive line and focus on getting numbers into the tackle to stop the player going further, gaining momentum or offloading. The focus is very much on controlling the opposition attack. It does leave us vulnerable out wide but we trust our outside backs to cover across when teams go wide.

    I also find when I'm at the game I notice more as I'm not influenced by commentary and I'm also not influenced by what the camera shows, so you can see other things happening in the background that you won't necessarily see on TV. Obviously you only get one viewing so sometimes watching it back helps you when you've missed things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Sometimes it's worth recording the game and re-watching the game back by focussing on specific things e.g. defensive or attacking shapes. By focussing on one particular thing you will start to notice certain patterns, go to players etc. Saints for example play a very condensed and narrow defensive line and focus on getting numbers into the tackle to stop the player going further, gaining momentum or offloading. The focus is very much on controlling the opposition attack. It does leave us vulnerable out wide but we trust our outside backs to cover across when teams go wide.

    I also find when I'm at the game I notice more as I'm not influenced by commentary and I'm also not influenced by what the camera shows, so you can see other things happening in the background that you won't necessarily see on TV. Obviously you only get one viewing so sometimes watching it back helps you when you've missed things.
    One thing worth mentioning is that Woolf has 3 players with great workrates who are a major influence on our sliding defence that was Roby, Bentley and Knowles, we had a a couple of games were all 3 were missing and teams managed to get ball out to the wider edge or an offload. All our players have specific roles in attack and defence but sometimes we lose control of the game and those roles are very ineffective until we get control or momentum back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    Sometimes it's worth recording the game and re-watching the game back by focussing on specific things e.g. defensive or attacking shapes. By focussing on one particular thing you will start to notice certain patterns, go to players etc. Saints for example play a very condensed and narrow defensive line and focus on getting numbers into the tackle to stop the player going further, gaining momentum or offloading. The focus is very much on controlling the opposition attack. It does leave us vulnerable out wide but we trust our outside backs to cover across when teams go wide.

    I also find when I'm at the game I notice more as I'm not influenced by commentary and I'm also not influenced by what the camera shows, so you can see other things happening in the background that you won't necessarily see on TV. Obviously you only get one viewing so sometimes watching it back helps you when you've missed things.
    Absolutely. I get much more out of it watching a game again, I get far too wrapped up in it as it's happening to take in small details but can watch it in a much calmer manner after the game and as you say, you see how effective our defensive structure is, and a big one for me, usually how good our discipline is compared to probably 90% of the rest although I very much think we force that on teams because we're so relentless, we tire teams out mentally and physically and force them into mistakes.

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    [QUOTE=Angry Dave;822386]Absolutely. I get much more out of it watching a game again, I get far too wrapped up in it as it's happening to take in small details but can watch it in a much calmer manner after the game and as you say, you see how effective our defensive structure is, and a big one for me, usually how good our discipline is compared to probably 90% of the rest although I very much think we force that on teams because we're so relentless, we tire teams out mentally and physically and force them into mistakes.[/QUOTE)

    Pretty much agree with this, but as long as you are enjoying the game I wouldn’t get too concerned over watching or seeing

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    If you get chance watch some of the NRL games. Not because the rugby is better to watch but because the commentators are far better. They quite often describe how a score or defensive read came about. Unlike the Sky muppets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    If you get chance watch some of the NRL games. Not because the rugby is better to watch but because the commentators are far better. They quite often describe how a score or defensive read came about. Unlike the Sky muppets.
    Sadly for me, I'm profoundly deaf, and even with a cochlear implant and processor can barely hear any commentary. I watch Sky via NOW TV and by this route there are no subtitles. Some on here might tell me that's a boon because I don't have to listen to Bill Arthur. But it would be nice to have a choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    If you get chance watch some of the NRL games. Not because the rugby is better to watch but because the commentators are far better. They quite often describe how a score or defensive read came about. Unlike the Sky muppets.
    The John Wells screen after the match used to be really good, hopefully we'll see a return after restrictions are lifted

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    Default Watching and seeing

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moore View Post
    If you get chance watch some of the NRL games. Not because the rugby is better to watch but because the commentators are far better. They quite often describe how a score or defensive read came about. Unlike the Sky muppets.
    It’s really annoying on Sky, and for the most part very negative commentary. Every try they will go back to the ‘mistake’ by the defending team- be it a penalty, knock on, etc- showing it repeatedly and bigging up the mistake as the important part far more than any skills or tactics used to create the opportunity to score.


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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogger View Post
    It’s really annoying on Sky, and for the most part very negative commentary. Every try they will go back to the ‘mistake’ by the defending team- be it a penalty, knock on, etc- showing it repeatedly and bigging up the mistake as the important part far more than any skills or tactics used to create the opportunity to score.


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    Most of the commentary are from ex forwards or wingers who don't see the game in the way a creative ex half back does, when you get the guest ex player like Longy, Briers and Brown you get a different perspective with depth on how the game is constructed with respect to tactical plays. Ex winger Wells is OK because he has time to look back through the replays and sees the construct before presentation.

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    You’re right Stiddy , it’s so much better when a guest is on giving far more technical analysis and explaining the attack formation and reasoning . They make the muppets look dumb.


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    Trent Robinson was very good with Jon Wells after the WCC game with Sydney. He was very informative and spoke very well about the little intricacies in their game plan.

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    What an excellent thread this is. Great post!

    I’m not a tactical genius or anything but I think being at the game is far better rather than watching it on TV. When at the game you are not being forced to watch a certain aspect of play.

    For me i think the pitch is split into 3 sections both with and without the ball. Your own ‘red zone’, the middle and the opponents red zone. I think once you break it down like that you will see patterns forming and how teams play in different areas..

    For example, You see saints looking for the back 3 and centres to come in and to find their knees in the tackle to get a quick play the ball and try and get behind the ruck coming out their own end zone. This then allows the forwards more time to run into their line with them not being quite set or not having chance to meet the runner. It’s a simple game plan that is effective for us with Roby.

    In the opponents end zone I will watch where the 2 halves are and your full back are. The way they come into play and how deep they are standing and what lines they are running. Some will split their halves with one on either side of the ruck with the full back floating around. Some teams will also use their loose forwards very differently too with some just pure line runners (NrL style) or ball players like Knowles who will act as another pivot

    Without the ball I will look at how many people are in the tackle, whether there are any overlaps with poor numbering and when defending on your own line where your full back is defending.

    After the game it is also useful to check stats and see metres and tackles (missed ones too)were made. This is then more than likely to match up to how you viewed the game.

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    What I found interesting about Millward when he coached here is that he would encourage a ‘red set’ (I’m not 100% on that it was called this) but they would pick out a defender and make them get involved in every tackle in the set to try and burn them out.

    So it’s also useful to see where teams are targeting when carrying the ball. They may often try and go after the same player. It’s basically what teams try and do to Roby.

    You actually saw this in the semi final against Hull as they ran at Walmsley (possibly because Passi was not playing) and he had a poor game by his standard I think as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nutgrovesaint View Post
    Trent Robinson was very good with Jon Wells after the WCC game with Sydney. He was very informative and spoke very well about the little intricacies in their game plan.
    Yes it was brilliant. I remember him explaining how they took SOL out of their game against Wigan as they asked their edge defenders to push up quick on the outside to stop him passing and forcing him to take the tackle up the middle. It then showed you this happen and he was ineffective.

    Robinson is a great coach to watch. I was watching something with Hastings and he was saying that every defender has a specific spot they need to be in when defending depending on where the ball is. If you’re not quite on your spot he would bring it up in video review and ask them why they were not in the right spot.

    BTW sorry for spamming this thread!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    What I found interesting about Millward when he coached here is that he would encourage a ‘red set’ (I’m not 100% on that it was called this) but they would pick out a defender and make them get involved in every tackle in the set to try and burn them out.

    So it’s also useful to see where teams are targeting when carrying the ball. They may often try and go after the same player. It’s basically what teams try and do to Roby.

    You actually saw this in the semi final against Hull as they ran at Walmsley (possibly because Passi was not playing) and he had a poor game by his standard I think as a result.
    This same point about repeated involvement of a specific player was highlighted prior to the Saints-Hull cup game, possibly by Wilkin, where clips from the previous week’s game showed Saints running at Satae who became increasingly slow ar getting back into the defensive line. The culmination was stated to be his inability to prevent Knowles from scoring although it was Mau not Satae who failed to defend properly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    What I found interesting about Millward when he coached here is that he would encourage a ‘red set’ (I’m not 100% on that it was called this) but they would pick out a defender and make them get involved in every tackle in the set to try and burn them out.

    So it’s also useful to see where teams are targeting when carrying the ball. They may often try and go after the same player. It’s basically what teams try and do to Roby.

    You actually saw this in the semi final against Hull as they ran at Walmsley (possibly because Passi was not playing) and he had a poor game by his standard I think as a result.
    Millward was quite lucky to have so many creative pivots in the side which were pure quality in Cunningham, Longy, Martyn, Scully and Wello and then he would bring on a Higham or a Roby. When Millward went to the Goons that number of creative pivots were just not there so his technical game plan was very limited.

    When you look at our team today you are probably looking at half the number of creative pivots against better set defences, thats why we can't switch to attacking play at will, we have to wait longer for opportunities when an oppostion defensive weakness arises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Most of the commentary are from ex forwards or wingers who don't see the game in the way a creative ex half back does, when you get the guest ex player like Longy, Briers and Brown you get a different perspective with depth on how the game is constructed with respect to tactical plays. Ex winger Wells is OK because he has time to look back through the replays and sees the construct before presentation.
    This is true, they are generally the most interesting summarisers. Brown at the Cup SF at pitchside was more interesting in two or three of his 30 second interjections than a usual 80 minutes on Sky. You notice in Australia they generally always have a half back on the commentary team or the sideline like Sterling, Johns, Anasta, Alexander, Lockyer, Lewis, Fittler etc. The big blokes are seen as the hard men who will comment about workrate or the tough side of the game whilst the half-backs talk about the tactics and the stuff you aren't thinking about. Here, we have two big lads (neither of whom I dislike at all) who only really feel comfortable talking about one side of the game and lack the experience or knowledge of what is going on behind the trenches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    This is true, they are generally the most interesting summarisers. Brown at the Cup SF at pitchside was more interesting in two or three of his 30 second interjections than a usual 80 minutes on Sky. You notice in Australia they generally always have a half back on the commentary team or the sideline like Sterling, Johns, Anasta, Alexander, Lockyer, Lewis, Fittler etc. The big blokes are seen as the hard men who will comment about workrate or the tough side of the game whilst the half-backs talk about the tactics and the stuff you aren't thinking about. Here, we have two big lads (neither of whom I dislike at all) who only really feel comfortable talking about one side of the game and lack the experience or knowledge of what is going on behind the trenches.
    Yes I agree with this. All we have is O’Connor and McDermott banging on about the collision or getting into them.

    A complete overhaul of sky is required as it’s gone stale now. Wilkin and Brown would be great to bring in full time I think.

    I actually think Wells is good but he does often point out really obvious stuff like ‘player x is retreating and the hooker sees it and runs at him’.

    I think better analysts would help every viewer to pick out stuff that aren’t obvious to us laymen.

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    Another useful indicator is the line speed of the defence. How it changes depending on which part of the field is being defended, and how a tackle bust can cause line speed to vanish completely.

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    I remember having the fortune to watch a game in the exec box at KR with Gordon Pennington (can't remember his exact role at the club at the time). He knew every set piece off by heart, called every move before they happened.

    I had absolutely no idea just how drilled each set of 6 is and how little is off the cuff. Now that was definitely a game I watched with a different pair of eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    Yes I agree with this. All we have is O’Connor and McDermott banging on about the collision or getting into them.

    A complete overhaul of sky is required as it’s gone stale now. Wilkin and Brown would be great to bring in full time I think.

    I actually think Wells is good but he does often point out really obvious stuff like ‘player x is retreating and the hooker sees it and runs at him’.

    I think better analysts would help every viewer to pick out stuff that aren’t obvious to us laymen.
    I agree 100% about Sky and I think Wilkin and Brown would be good. I've mentioned before, I think Jodie Cunningham would be a good edition too, she speaks well and has a good rugby brain. She also pushes the Ladies game but without being militant about it, similar to the likes of Alex Scott and Elidgh(sp) Barbour on the football at the moment.

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