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Thread: Transfer Rumours - All in Here

  1. #4776
    Moderator Div's Avatar
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    Its quite a simple equation really.

    The salary cap here needs to be lifted.

    However, the stark reality is that the game here can only afford to do that if it significantly increases its income streams which effectively boils down to making it more attractive / appealing to spectators, sponsors, TV companies, etc. That will lie with IMG.

    Most of the clus are lossmaking and rely on benefactors. Simply increasing the CAP without extra income would be a recipe for disaster.

    I'm sure everyone will have their own view on how we increase the income and for some the answer will not be palatable.

    I'm in the camp that we need to spread the game to encompass some major towns and cities. That may be at the expense of those clubs that take everything, invest little and are just glad to survive every season with little ambition. Not naming names but clubs whos subs bench favvers 4 school chairs would be on my hit list! Towns like Fev with all their history but with a population of 15,000 and surrounded by other clubs are never going to generate huge income (no disrespect) but they could well be in the top flight next season.

    With the game in Australia so far ahead in the financial stakes like it or not we will see plenty of talent drifting over there- they can even afford to take a punt on lesser players given the spare cash they have. Unless we generate more ££££ we can whinge as much as we want but it is inevitable.

  2. #4777
    In The South Stand Paul Newlove's Avatar
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    No doubt the SC needs raising here but at the moment it's impossible until we become more attractive to TV sponsorship as Div stays.
    There's no doubt Australia will be more attractive proposition for a young player on higher salary but in reality how many make it in the NRL? You have to be top notch, the majority will get a few years experience and come back better and ready for SL maybe?
    Holding onto your top stars like Knowles, Welsby etc is more of a challenge and so far thank god, Rushie and Eamonn we are doing OK.
    The flip side is any of these 'defecting' players will be available for England and this is something IMG are hoping to push I just wish the NRL would see it.
    For every Elliot Whitehead you'll have a Joe Greenwood, an exciting talent who went to NRL and hasn't ripped it up but come back and a decent SL career and that number will probably rise.
    It's not ideal but RL hasn't much of a choice really until the sport grows but look at domestic RU and what happens to clubs living beyond their means with huge wage bills and RU is huge internationally. We are where we are at the moment unfortunately until IMG can wave their magic wand.

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    The NRL threat won't be as bad as people fear. I'm sure there will be another wave of it to come, but an awful lot of those will fail. The standard of athlete and talent in the UK game is at all time low and a lot of teams will be burned by the English players they outbid Super League teams for or even pay transfer fees for. That will likely lead to a growing distrust of the UK talent by some clubs. It'll be seen as a risk over there and teams with more than a couple of English players will be criticised. It'd do wonders for England as a national team if we've got the majority of the top 30 English players playing regularly in the NRL though. And if 30 players did move over there, it would mean 30 players spilled out of squads and became available to Super League sides. So there will be more Brodie Crofts and Jai Fields that can't make it in the NRL but end up thrilling the fans of the little clubs in Super League.

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    Learning All The Songs Brian Nazareth's Avatar
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    The other way of looking at this is to consider football across Europe and some parallels with our game here.

    The English Premier League are by far a richer league than all the others. They use that bigger income (as, to a lesser extent, does the Spanish La Liga) to plunder all the other leagues.

    The French national team has arguably been the best so far this century. The Belgian and Dutch teams also very good.

    Yet the majority of top tier French, Belgian and Dutch players ply their trade with clubs outside of their countries.

    Yet the popularity of football in those countries remains just as high. Crowds are big. The clubs there keep developing quality players like a conveyor belt.

    Of course, there's major differences between the economies of RL and football. The most major being...

    1) the global obsession with football that shows no sign of dropping off

    2) the money that flows into the game as a result of the global obsession

    3) crucially, they have a mechanism for compensating clubs who develop players. I know there's Bosmans, but the transfer market ethos is embedded so hundreds of millions of pounds change hands each window, often from the richest clubs to less moneybags, whilst even end-of-contract young players generate a fee.

    We obviously couldn't get the rugby union authorities to agree to a fee arrangement for cross-sport movements (for out of contract players), but could we work with the NRL to get agreement on compensation for under-25s moving from SL to NRL? Or even under-23s?

    That's putting the cart before the horse a bit anyway. Our primary focus needs to be developing young players in sufficient numbers so that, if the NRL do take half a dozen talents a year, there's more to step in.

    I know we all agree that it's criminal how RL authorities have allowed most clubs to just play at running Academies, with them also allowing the situation to develop where we lost completely the stepping stone between Academy and First Team.

    The age-old issue of letting the 'also-rans' (I'm being kind) dictate the direction of the sport in this country. Small-minded, parochial clubs who can't see past their own self interest. They suck all they can out and put little back in. Then whine that it's all not fair, and block moves to try to improve the wider interests of the sport.

    I've waffled on too much. But I stress that the best way to address NRL clubs taking our best players with their far greater resources, is to bring through enough talent to make that an irrelevance for the game in this country. How we do that is a different matter altogether...
    He's not the Messiah, he's a naughty boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    The NRL threat won't be as bad as people fear. I'm sure there will be another wave of it to come, but an awful lot of those will fail. The standard of athlete and talent in the UK game is at all time low and a lot of teams will be burned by the English players they outbid Super League teams for or even pay transfer fees for. That will likely lead to a growing distrust of the UK talent by some clubs. It'll be seen as a risk over there and teams with more than a couple of English players will be criticised. It'd do wonders for England as a national team if we've got the majority of the top 30 English players playing regularly in the NRL though. And if 30 players did move over there, it would mean 30 players spilled out of squads and became available to Super League sides. So there will be more Brodie Crofts and Jai Fields that can't make it in the NRL but end up thrilling the fans of the little clubs in Super League.
    I've made that point elsewhere. there are only 400-450 NRL first team squad spots available, so there isn't an infinite capacity for every young English player to go over there and make a success of it at the top level - even if they all want to go.

  6. #4781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Nazareth View Post
    The other way of looking at this is to consider football across Europe and some parallels with our game here.

    The English Premier League are by far a richer league than all the others. They use that bigger income (as, to a lesser extent, does the Spanish La Liga) to plunder all the other leagues.

    The French national team has arguably been the best so far this century. The Belgian and Dutch teams also very good.

    Yet the majority of top tier French, Belgian and Dutch players ply their trade with clubs outside of their countries.

    Yet the popularity of football in those countries remains just as high. Crowds are big. The clubs there keep developing quality players like a conveyor belt.

    Of course, there's major differences between the economies of RL and football. The most major being...

    1) the global obsession with football that shows no sign of dropping off

    2) the money that flows into the game as a result of the global obsession

    3) crucially, they have a mechanism for compensating clubs who develop players. I know there's Bosmans, but the transfer market ethos is embedded so hundreds of millions of pounds change hands each window, often from the richest clubs to less moneybags, whilst even end-of-contract young players generate a fee.

    We obviously couldn't get the rugby union authorities to agree to a fee arrangement for cross-sport movements (for out of contract players), but could we work with the NRL to get agreement on compensation for under-25s moving from SL to NRL? Or even under-23s?

    That's putting the cart before the horse a bit anyway. Our primary focus needs to be developing young players in sufficient numbers so that, if the NRL do take half a dozen talents a year, there's more to step in.

    I know we all agree that it's criminal how RL authorities have allowed most clubs to just play at running Academies, with them also allowing the situation to develop where we lost completely the stepping stone between Academy and First Team.

    The age-old issue of letting the 'also-rans' (I'm being kind) dictate the direction of the sport in this country. Small-minded, parochial clubs who can't see past their own self interest. They suck all they can out and put little back in. Then whine that it's all not fair, and block moves to try to improve the wider interests of the sport.

    I've waffled on too much. But I stress that the best way to address NRL clubs taking our best players with their far greater resources, is to bring through enough talent to make that an irrelevance for the game in this country. How we do that is a different matter altogether...
    Some good analogies and correct criticisms.
    A good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo8 View Post
    I've made that point elsewhere. there are only 400-450 NRL first team squad spots available, so there isn't an infinite capacity for every young English player to go over there and make a success of it at the top level - even if they all want to go.
    Do you really think KPP, Murphy and Pryce are getting a top 30 spot? I think the problem isnt an "all time low" in "the standard of athlete and talent in the UK game", but that by the time they have established themselves as international standard players, the cost of bringing them over makes them a risk. Its obviously been seen with Thompson, but Williams and Bateman getting homesick as well. We can still produce wordclass players, but getting that to translate in the NRL game is difficult to predict (though I would always argue in Thompsons case that hes needed to play alongside another worldclass prop to get the best out of him, and Walmsley basically got him the Bulldogs contract).

    This is why, concerningly, it seems the NRL strategy has shifted to go after the best the British game can produce prior to establishing themselves as full SL players. Theres nothing but downside for SL clubs in that strategy, and nothing but upside for the NRL clubs. Theyre less likely to have family ties/ see it as an adventure, they still qualify for the reserve grade/ Jersey Flegg, and are grateful for minimum salaries all the way, as its still double, treble what they would make over here.

    I think we desperately need to introduce minimum wages for our top 25s. Even at 50k, this is a huge step up for most on the bottom rungs of the squad structures, and whilst its still barely half what NRL top 30 gets, it should do a lot to stop the immediate junior drain. You would need to up the cap by 250-500k to accommodate this (as otherwise the extra money is just coming out of the pockets of our top end players, which just creates other problems) which is alot to effectively stay still, but hopefully it could be combined with far stronger dispensations for home grown players (capping all home grown players at 150k say) to combat both ends. Of course the "the salary cap is supposed to mean anyone can win" crowd will point out the significant advantage that hands Saints and Wigan, but we have to incentivise teams to invest more in their academies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Nazareth View Post
    We obviously couldn't get the rugby union authorities to agree to a fee arrangement for cross-sport movements (for out of contract players), but could we work with the NRL to get agreement on compensation for under-25s moving from SL to NRL? Or even under-23s?
    So internally to Super League, there is: https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport...n-rfl-25673081

    Problem is because theres not one governing body across all RL, all the non-NRL leagues in Aus + France would have to be agreed as well, and I just cant see that sort of agreement getting put in place. Huge, global changes are needed, and the Aussies insular attitude make that beyond difficult to implement.

  9. #4784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo8 View Post
    I've made that point elsewhere. there are only 400-450 NRL first team squad spots available, so there isn't an infinite capacity for every young English player to go over there and make a success of it at the top level - even if they all want to go.
    It's not about them wanting to go, it's about them being good enough to go. If they are good enough, NRL teams will consider them value for money as they will be able to pay them more than SL clubs will but probably less than they would some of the juniors coming through the ranks looking for big first team money. However, if those juniors are worth paying the money for then they will do so. Either way, SL is left with the dregs of any kind of quality youngster that might want to get into the game (if they are silly enough to want to).
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  10. #4785
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    Brian Nazareth makes a good point as above..

    German football thrives, but has a handful of top international players in the Bundesliga (outside of Munich) However the stars it creates, they sell for a lot of money to the Premier League amongst others..

    We need to ensure contracts are bulletproof, if someone like Welsby wants to go the NRL in contract, they pay a transfer fee that will go back into our game

  11. #4786
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    We need to ensure contracts are bulletproof, if someone like Welsby wants to go the NRL in contract, they pay a transfer fee that will go back into our game
    Talk in past few days that Dragons (St. George) approached Salford to take Brodie Croft immediately. Apparently Salford put ~£150K price tag on him which Dragons balked at. So it can be a deterrent too. He's off contract at season end mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    So there will be more Brodie Crofts and Jai Fields that can't make it in the NRL but end up thrilling the fans of clubs in Super League.
    Looking ahead to the new season, it's certainly a positive that exciting players like Brodie and Jai are in the competition. Both 25 and here in their Prime. Wigan still have French as well of course too. Warrington have Dufty. Interested to see how Jake Clifford and Tex Hoy go for Hull FC also.

    At Saints, it's Welsby who's an experienced player now and key to the attack, despite only being 21 still. Dodd is one to watch on his comeback. Looked a class act before his injury. Keen to see Ritson, when he gets his chance.
    Last edited by Mike Stephenson; 6th February 2023 at 22:56.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post
    Talk in past few days that Dragons (St. George) approached Salford to take Brodie Croft immediately. Apparently Salford put ~£150K price tag on him which Dragons balked at. So it can be a deterrent too. He's off contract at season end mind.



    Looking ahead to the new season, it's certainly a positive that exciting players like Brodie and Jai are in the competition. Both 25 and here in their Prime. Wigan still have French as well of course too. Warrington have Dufty. Interested to see how Jake Clifford and Tex Hoy go for Hull FC also.

    At Saints, it's Welsby who's an experienced player now and key to the attack, despite only being 21 still. Dodd is one to watch on his comeback. Looked a class act before his injury. Keen to see Ritson, when he gets his chance.
    Well Croft has just signed a deal until 2030, big gamble to tie up a marquee spot for that long.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Well Croft has just signed a deal until 2030, big gamble to tie up a marquee spot for that long.
    Is he actually a marquee player ? While I agree he is good he certainly isn't what I would class as one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    Is he actually a marquee player ? While I agree he is good he certainly isn't what I would class as one.
    Not saying he is worthy of it, just saying he’s a marquee player and that’s £150,000 of their cap tied up for 8 years.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Not saying he is worthy of it, just saying he’s a marquee player and that’s £150,000 of their cap tied up for 8 years.
    With you about the 8 years,that part is a bit of a gamble. 150k though is about right for a teams star halfback and current man of steel. It puts them in a strong position if the NRL come sniffing around again

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    Regarding the salary cap, the clubs themselves have voted not to lift it because many can’t afford to raise their spending to such levels, which really highlights where many of the “elite” clubs really are.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    Regarding the salary cap, the clubs themselves have voted not to lift it because many can’t afford to raise their spending to such levels, which really highlights where many of the “elite” clubs really are.
    I’m sure Southampton, Bournemouth and co would vote to keep Premier league caps artificially low should such a thing exist and they had the opportunity. But it sort of highlights it should never have been their decision in the first place

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Well Croft has just signed a deal until 2030, big gamble to tie up a marquee spot for that long.
    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    Is he actually a marquee player ? While I agree he is good he certainly isn't what I would class as one.
    I think if we compare to some of the players that have been rumoured to have been on marquee deals previously Brook, he is. He was very good for Salford last year, one of the best halves in the competition. Salford would've really wanted to keep hold of him.

    Would be interesting to know the terms of the deal... how much is the contract worth, in the region of £2-2.5 Million do we think? Is there an NRL clause in there?

    Pressure on Brodie to deliver for them again for this year and many more to come. But I think the thing about him is, he seems the type of player that you don't need to tell to run the ball. Stats back that up with the carries and breaks he made last year.
    *Not to be confused with Mike Stephenson, MBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Not saying he is worthy of it, just saying he’s a marquee player and that’s £150,000 of their cap tied up for 8 years.
    Agree about the 8 years, but the contract may have some sort of review periods and other performance clauses built in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    Regarding the salary cap, the clubs themselves have voted not to lift it because many can’t afford to raise their spending to such levels, which really highlights where many of the “elite” clubs really are.
    I believe that we are one of the clubs that didn’t want an increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I believe that we are one of the clubs that didn’t want an increase.
    Makes sense - not that i necessarily agree with it, but the current system obviously works for us at the moment. The opinion may change should the NRL come calling for Welsby, Dodd etc and we want to be able to offer them more money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo8 View Post
    Makes sense - not that i necessarily agree with it, but the current system obviously works for us at the moment. The opinion may change should the NRL come calling for Welsby, Dodd etc and we want to be able to offer them more money.
    Whatever money we could offer them even if the cap was raised can easily be blown out of the water by NRL clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Stephenson View Post
    ? Is there an NRL clause in there?

    You'd expect so - and likely (I would hope, or its pointless) Salford have put in a release clause with transfer fee if he does want to go home.
    He's not the Messiah, he's a naughty boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brook View Post
    Whatever money we could offer them even if the cap was raised can easily be blown out of the water by NRL clubs
    I mean technically not; I expect both Welsby and Dodd will eventually occupy marquee spots (something we’re not currently using) which means that in theory we could blow any NRL offer out of the water, and all for a measly 75k on the cap. Of course, then we get into the conversation that Super League has a reputation problem just as much as a financial problem but that’s a different discussion.

    My understanding is the club want to see minimum salaries and minimum spends before agreeing to up the cap further. The argument being unless we’re proposing upping the cap to being a significant proportion of the NRL cap (which lets be honest isn’t happening any time soon) then we need to be smarter. I think the NRL is likely past the gambling big money on already established players as Thompson, Williams and Bateman have proven (that’s not to say the next desperate club won’t throw silly money at an international, but it won’t be the go to I don’t imagine) instead targeting our juniors whom won’t even be on a top 30 wage over there and still massively out earning what they would be getting in SL.

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    See how Levi Edwards goes this year at York. If he performs I'm guessing we will be in for him along with other SL clubs.

    Leeds thought he was the next big thing. Not quite worked.

    Murphy
    Hall
    Edwards

    3 British players we should be looking at.

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