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Thread: 21 man squad v Wakefield

  1. #176
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    Some interesting points at large in this thread. Saints now adopt the approach that we are willing to play the long and patient game and wear our opponents down. And it is working very well, albeit in an unspectacular style.

    I think some of the criticism of Woolf is harsh. Holbrook was a magic head coach. He brought enjoyment back. From 2017 onwards, the Barba and Holbrook boost meant that we were the team to watch once again. It was the best to watch for years. But the uncomfortable truth is that the Saints side of 2017 to August 2019 simply could not play big matches. I think we knew what we needed to do, but couldn't execute it, and that may be because we priortised our style. The result was winning one major trophy from a possible five, which was a poor return considering our dominance. But, given the toxic atmosphere post Cunningham, it was the right thing to bring the entertainment back, even if we didn't win as much as we could have.

    Following Holbrook was impossible. There are very few coaches who can employ his type of style, win most weeks and bag trophies (even Holbrook struggled with the latter). And that's before you look at his personality and connection with the fans, repairing the growing divide between club and fans.

    It's something not many seem to want to say, but I'll say it. If Holbrook was in charge last year, we would have lost the Grand Final something like 18-4. Our defence wasn't as good under him and in big games we struggled to break sides down (6 points scored against Wire in Cup final 2019, one try scored against same opponents in 2018 play offs, nilled in first half against Catalans in 2018 semi final). We had the same problem in attack in 2020, but our defence was strong enough to win us the championship. I don't think its as simple to flick a switch from being free flowing every week and then defensive-orientated in big games to get the best of both worlds. If you want to defend like we do, it's something we need to commit to every week.

    Woolf is fulfiling his role. The only way he can improve us from the Holbrook era is to make us more win more trophies. He made a good start by going back to back with championships. But to have that hard-nosed win at all costs attitude that we didn't have under Holbrook, something had to give. That was our attacking flair. In place of that came probably the best defensive side I have ever seen, but there's no question we aren't as entertaining. I think Woolf can only be judged at the end of his tenure. If he wins more trophies this year, then it's hard to criticise him. He will have turned a side that occasionally picks up trophies into a side that consistently does. If he doesn't, then more questions will be asked about style and whether it was worth the sacrifice.

    I'm not trying to bag Holbrook by the way, he's my favourite coach of all time and will always be remembered as a great here. His entertainment factor was second to none.

    It comes down to the debate on here for so many years. What is more important - entertaining or winning trophies? You largely have to prioritise one, and as a result the other falters. Under Holbrook, entertainment was king and we didn't win as many trophies as we could have. Under Woolf, winning is more important, we may end up winning more trophies, but it won't be as good to watch. Which side of the Woolf debate you fall on will depend on what is your priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I think this is the NRL mindset really. .....et.
    This is an excellent post and sums it up perfectly

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    Not sure why anyone would think the NRL isn’t entertaining. Some of the tries scored just this season have been completely off the cuff. Panthers, Roosters and Eels score some amazing tries free from structure. Look at Cleary when he chips over and collects, no one in the SL does that anymore.

    Back to Woolf and it’s obvious we aren’t as entertaining but this is the best defensive side I’ve seen at Saints. The line speed and aggression is incredible. I also now feel we have that big game mentality which we didn’t have even under Holbrook.

    As others have alluded to, one trophy in 2 and a half years was a poor return with the squad he had at his disposal and as much as I like him and think he was a great coach, at times he got it wrong. His reluctance to rotate players cost us in 2018 IMO which to be fair he seemed to learn from in 2019 however the CC Final loss to Warrington was a huge blow and tactically we were at a loss when playing Warrington.

    In the days when Wigan used to beat us they did it by physically dominating us even with inferior forwards. They had a game plan to tire Walmsley and Roby and at times it worked. They can’t do that anymore, this Saints team is aggressive and matches anyone physically. Even in the GF last year, whilst we struggled to break them down in terms of our attack, we still dominated them in the pack despite Walmsley playing on one leg and Graham seeing his best days behind him and carrying that rib injury from the first few minutes.

    I also think that we’ve not had the chance to get going yet. Knowles is a huge miss and is that link between the forwards and backs and Coote and Percival haven’t played much and in Coote’s case he looks way off being fully match fit so far.

    I think we are more than capable of being more attacking and that will show as the season goes on. We also have to factor in Taia on that left edge and how good his attack was. We now have him and Percival missing from that side. We aren’t using Thompson properly and at times are missing some of the lines he’s running.

    I was very disappointed with us first half last night and our indiscipline is awful at times.

    However I have to say I’m more confident in us winning a Final under Woolf than I was under Holbrook and that ultimately is what I want us to do.


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    Holbrook brought the feel good factor back to Saints. He was what we needed after a toxic period at the club. Woolf is probably the next step on the ladder. I’m more confident about us in big games and the side is beginning to get a bit of mongrel about it. Taia has been a big loss down the left side alongside Percy not being fit for a while. Knowles is also very good and his impact on the side cannot be underestimated. Once we get these players back our attack should be better.. Woolf also doesn’t seem to want to rush anyone back from injury he seems to genuinely care for his players

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I think the attack coaching is there but we can't execute it like an on and off switch. If I was an oppostion coach it would be slow down the Saints PTB, spoil the attacking line and put Lomax under pressure reducing his running space, if that works then they can attack the saints defence with keeping the ball alive with second phase and offloads that objective would be too get points on the scoreboard to make Saints chase the game and hope they compound with errors and poor completions.
    Ok
    I think what you said about how you would coach aganst Saints is what many teams try to do. I saw the highlights and a couple of spectacular try’s on there l.
    Saints play very tough and patient, that patience may take 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 mins in the game, Woolf has this instilled into our game plan not pretty at times and this is were some fans don't buy into. Once we get some free flowing opportunities then our attacking play is brilliant that Grace second try from an Iggy offload for example.

    Woolf's philosophy of defence is primary and attack is secondasry is making us so difficult to beat, our defence is similar to Saints 2006. We have 2 or 3 occasions in every gane where we pin the opposition down in their own 10-15 metres putting them under enormoous pressure, that is great to watch that dominating attribute.
    I think your way of coaching against Saints is what many teams try to do. Watched the highlights and a couple of great try’s on there

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    I thought Naiqama had a good game, he looked dangerous with the ball and there was a couple of decent offloads from him to Makinson. I don’t know who has been giving Mako goal kicking tips but he has been top class doing it.

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    I think JH is a top top coach who will get to a GF in Aus eventually & we were so lucky with his appointment after the Cunningham fiasco. Woolfe is also a top coach IMO for how he turned round a pre lockdown mid table side into a GF winning side (some may blame him in the first place) but that was some achievement in my eyes. I don't think KW CV will be as impressive as JH in time but feel both appointments were class.

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    We are a very well drilled team with a NRL gameplan, wear the opposition down, high completion rate, then score when they're tired. It reminds me of the Australians in the early 00s (I'm not for a second saying we are as good as the Aussies, just that we implement a similar gameplan). What I am worried about is when we face Wigan or Warrington in a big game and they match our intensity. We are that well drilled that I don't see us having the attacking ability to score tries when chasing a game and having to try something different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    We are a very well drilled team with a NRL gameplan, wear the opposition down, high completion rate, then score when they're tired. It reminds me of the Australians in the early 00s (I'm not for a second saying we are as good as the Aussies, just that we implement a similar gameplan). What I am worried about is when we face Wigan or Warrington in a big game and they match our intensity. We are that well drilled that I don't see us having the attacking ability to score tries when chasing a game and having to try something different.
    Exactly. It seems very narrow minded to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    We are a very well drilled team with a NRL gameplan, wear the opposition down, high completion rate, then score when they're tired. It reminds me of the Australians in the early 00s (I'm not for a second saying we are as good as the Aussies, just that we implement a similar gameplan). What I am worried about is when we face Wigan or Warrington in a big game and they match our intensity. We are that well drilled that I don't see us having the attacking ability to score tries when chasing a game and having to try something different.
    Not sure about that, some of the NRL play is very expansive. We literally play most of the time like we have no backs. If Makinson didn’t come in for work he could be lucky to touch the ball half a dozen times in a full match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    Not sure about that, some of the NRL play is very expansive. We literally play most of the time like we have no backs. If Makinson didn’t come in for work he could be lucky to touch the ball half a dozen times in a full match.
    They "play the percentages" first and foremost. Having a similar gameplan to the NRL and doing some of things that the best players in that league can do are two very different things. We were also expansive in the 2nd half against Wakefield. I hope that was because Woolf tore into them at half time although I suspect it will be a combination of both that and the 'grind' with Wakey in the first 40. How we play now is enough to win 75% of our games this year at least. Like I mentioned before, what I am curious about is do we have the ability to turn it around when we are 2/3 scores behind or are we that well drilled that we won't have a clue how to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintJon View Post
    They "play the percentages" first and foremost. Having a similar gameplan to the NRL and doing some of things that the best players in that league can do are two very different things. We were also expansive in the 2nd half against Wakefield. I hope that was because Woolf tore into them at half time although I suspect it will be a combination of both that and the 'grind' with Wakey in the first 40. How we play now is enough to win 75% of our games this year at least. Like I mentioned before, what I am curious about is do we have the ability to turn it around when we are 2/3 scores behind or are we that well drilled that we won't have a clue how to?
    I have already had the thought that the way we are being coached, we are going to lose some of our attacking ability. It’s like pretty much anything, the less you do something your ability to perform that task diminishes. Ring rusty!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Reverand View Post
    I have already had the thought that the way we are being coached, we are going to lose some of our attacking ability. It’s like pretty much anything, the less you do something your ability to perform that task diminishes. Ring rusty!
    It’s just the way the game is played overall these days in Superleague, teams stifle attacking play options as long as they can.
    Just replayed our game v Wakey, we did plenty of passing plays in the first half but Wakey did a good job of limiting our attacking options.
    Listening to the Dull v Dire game seems very much similar to our game with Dull stifling Dires attacking options, score was 2~2 at half time.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    I think it could go down as the biggest question in rugby league. Wins vs entertainment. Generally, i think percentages, grind rugby does win a lot of games. But its not always needed. A poor team needs to play grind rugby to make up for a lack of quality, but thats not us. We have the players. We could be playing better (more risky) rugby than this and still win games yet we stick to the same boring arm wrestle rugby.
    I think clubs as a business lose site of the fact that this is a spectator sport. Its not golf or cricket. This is rugby league. Its only ever as good as the will to come and watch it. This sport is nothing without folk watching it. Is it worth watching boring rugby all season in exchange for the guarantee that you MAY win a grand final?

    The grind kept us in last years grand final right up until the death. Yet we may have lost if not for the bounce od a few balls.
    No thanks. Personally, i would prefer entertaining rugby all season long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeroyjenkins View Post
    Problem is that dodd isn’t getting any game time at half, why fages doesn’t go to hooker and dodd goes half when roby goes off is beyond me.


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    I think Welsby played academy at 6 didn't he (I don't watch it but thought I'd read that somewhere)? He's not played there for the first team yet, and may never do but he has developed in the last year because of his time on the field in whatever position we could fit him.

    Getting game time for Dodd is the most important thing in the short term so barring an injury to our halves spelling Roby is the best chance for him to get his hands on the ball. His chance to play at 7 for us will come but steadily building his game time, input and confidence is more important right now.

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    Seems Big Kris has nothing to do with the Ladies team, they're 52-0 up at half time.

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    The Grand Final Last Year. 79th minute, two men in two different houses. I was ecstatic, in the other house Rogues would have been devastated. Take your pick? I don't want glorious defeats, I have had those. The famous one was the extra time challenge cup defeat by Leeds at Huddersfield.

    Leeds couldn't buy a win against us, that day in a fantastic game they broke their hoodoo. I went back to the Slubbers in Bruce Forsyth mode, good game, good game. They enjoyed some grinding wins in Grand Finals against us in the following years. Nice football and mentally weak Saints in those years AND to an extent in the JH era. We are back to back Champions lets enjoy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guns86 View Post
    I think Welsby played academy at 6 didn't he (I don't watch it but thought I'd read that somewhere)? He's not played there for the first team yet, and may never do but he has developed in the last year because of his time on the field in whatever position we could fit him.

    Getting game time for Dodd is the most important thing in the short term so barring an injury to our halves spelling Roby is the best chance for him to get his hands on the ball. His chance to play at 7 for us will come but steadily building his game time, input and confidence is more important right now.

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    He did play 6 most of the time, when he got selected for the England Academy they wanted Saints to play him at full back. He has the potential to play anywhere in the backline and No 13 as well, but Wingfield looks a good prospect to be a No 13 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Is it worth watching boring rugby all season in exchange for the guarantee that you MAY win a grand final?

    The grind kept us in last years grand final right up until the death. Yet we may have lost if not for the bounce od a few balls.
    No thanks. Personally, i would prefer entertaining rugby all season long.
    This is the point I make alot. Horses for courses should be the approach. If we want to play percentages and grind RL in a Grand Final, go for it, I don't care how we play as long as we win the thing. Same for a Cup Final or semi final or a game at Wigan etc. But this isn't a winner takes all system were every 2 points is the same value as another. Our seasons hinge around six of seven games really, namely 3-4 cup ties, a play-off semi and a GF. What about the other 25 games? These are the meat and drink of a RL season, the home games against Hull KR and Salford, the away games at Leigh etc, and they aren't really much fun because none of them are massively important yet we treat them like just getting the win is the only thing. We've had the emotional highs of winning a Grand Final for sure, but what came before it? It's like having the fastest F1 car but you opt to coast along for 90% of the race before burning everyone off in the last five minutes. Great ending, but how many switched off beforehand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    It’s just the way the game is played overall these days in Superleague, teams stifle attacking play options as long as they can.
    Just replayed our game v Wakey, we did plenty of passing plays in the first half but Wakey did a good job of limiting our attacking options.
    Listening to the Dull v Dire game seems very much similar to our game with Dull stifling Dires attacking options, score was 2~2 at half time.
    I've just finished watching it too and I think the first half display was caused by our own errors, not playing with the referee but against him, as well as enthusiastic defence from wakefield. The second half we just got on with it and things just stuck rather than any dramatic changes.

    The scoreline makes the match look easier overall than we made it for ourselves in the first half which is a positive for the team. After the way they played in the second half clearly they can learn from mistakes and quickly correct what's going wrong. That needs to be carried into every match this season as they seem to have underestimated the opposition in the last 2 and had to work harder because of it.



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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    He did play 6 most of the time, when he got selected for the England Academy they wanted Saints to play him at full back. He has the potential to play anywhere in the backline and No 13 as well, but Wingfield looks a good prospect to be a No 13 as well.
    Thanks for confirming STIDDY and for the extra info. It's interesting as Woolf said recently he (Welsby) feels most comfortable at fullback. Perhaps he'll end up as Coote's successor.

    He's not looked out of place at fullback or centre this year and he's really coming into his own. I think each week we see a little more of the potential people have spoken about with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    This is the point I make alot. Horses for courses should be the approach. If we want to play percentages and grind RL in a Grand Final, go for it, I don't care how we play as long as we win the thing. Same for a Cup Final or semi final or a game at Wigan etc. But this isn't a winner takes all system were every 2 points is the same value as another. Our seasons hinge around six of seven games really, namely 3-4 cup ties, a play-off semi and a GF. What about the other 25 games? These are the meat and drink of a RL season, the home games against Hull KR and Salford, the away games at Leigh etc, and they aren't really much fun because none of them are massively important yet we treat them like just getting the win is the only thing. We've had the emotional highs of winning a Grand Final for sure, but what came before it? It's like having the fastest F1 car but you opt to coast along for 90% of the race before burning everyone off in the last five minutes. Great ending, but how many switched off beforehand?
    Yep thats it. Coaches keep talking about defence wins games, but ive yet to see a team win a 0-0 game. All that does is lose spectators. At one time our motto was ‘you score 20. Fine we’ll score 22’ . I preferred that rugby personally. Because a team that is confident in its attacking ability is in the game right up until the 80th minute. Under Cunningham our approach was basically, lets tackle really well, play the percentages and then HOPEFULLY grind out a score late on. It just leaves way too much to chance.
    It worked for us in the 2014 grand final but we had no other option. No Walsh, Lomax or Wilkin. We had an ageing Wellens wedged into the team and lost Hohaia early on. We pretty much played with Scarsbrook at centre and Turner and Flannigan in the halves. We had to play a simple gameplan. It won us a Championship. But we are capable of far better now. We should be playing better rugby and winning games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Yep thats it. Coaches keep talking about defence wins games, but ive yet to see a team win a 0-0 game. All that does is lose spectators. At one time our motto was ‘you score 20. Fine we’ll score 22’ . I preferred that rugby personally. Because a team that is confident in its attacking ability is in the game right up until the 80th minute. Under Cunningham our approach was basically, lets tackle really well, play the percentages and then HOPEFULLY grind out a score late on. It just leaves way too much to chance.
    It worked for us in the 2014 grand final but we had no other option. No Walsh, Lomax or Wilkin. We had an ageing Wellens wedged into the team and lost Hohaia early on. We pretty much played with Scarsbrook at centre and Turner and Flannigan in the halves. We had to play a simple gameplan. It won us a Championship. But we are capable of far better now. We should be playing better rugby and winning games.
    I don't think we will see "You score 20 we will score 21" anymore. From Saints we will see more spells of attacking play when the opportunity arises, leaving players on the ground is very much the attacking objective from most teams these days. There is not not much wrong with our attacking support play when we find space, that Grace 2nd try was superb with everyone clicking into place.

    It was the latter half of last season we saw the shift of teams prepared to stifle our attack with more defence. I particulasrly remember Powell getting Cas to defend for 80 mins and we only came out of that game with a 4-0 win. We really need attacking pivots at 1,6,7, 9 and 13 to create more attacking options but at the moment we only have one attacking pivot at 6 in Lomax. Coote is still rusty, Roby is less dynamic, Fages concentrates on kicking plays and we don't have a ball playing loose forward.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I don't think we will see "You score 20 we will score 21" anymore. From Saints we will see more spells of attacking play when the opportunity arises, leaving players on the ground is very much the attacking objective from most teams these days. There is not not much wrong with our attacking support play when we find space, that Grace 2nd try was superb with everyone clicking into place.

    It was the latter half of last season we saw the shift of teams prepared to stifle our attack with more defence. I particulasrly remember Powell getting Cas to defend for 80 mins and we only came out of that game with a 4-0 win. We really need attacking pivots at 1,6,7, 9 and 13 to create more attacking options but at the moment we only have one attacking pivot at 6 in Lomax. Coote is still rusty, Roby is less dynamic, Fages concentrates on kicking plays and we don't have a ball playing loose forward.
    Yeh they are fair points STIDDY.
    We do look good when we click. It just concerns me how terrible we look in those early grind exchanges. We have had periods in the past where we have had great defence week on week only to come undone against certain teams. Usually a team with strike like Warrington.
    A game starts nil all. It only takes an off day from a defender, some bad referee decisions, the bounce of a ball, and all of a sudden even a usually sound defensive team can find themselves 12 nil down. Its nice to know you have the attacking ability to come back from a deficit when in trouble without having to spend 30 minutes softening up the other team beforehand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by guns86 View Post
    Thanks for confirming STIDDY and for the extra info. It's interesting as Woolf said recently he (Welsby) feels most comfortable at fullback. Perhaps he'll end up as Coote's successor.

    He's not looked out of place at fullback or centre this year and he's really coming into his own. I think each week we see a little more of the potential people have spoken about with him.

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    It's probably not 10 games ago when some wanted Welsby binned, now whenever he is selected he is doing OK.

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