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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    They can and will. The postmodern left is a worse alternative to many. Its identity politics (infested within Labour) would send the country back to the 70's. Its disregard of the Brexit result will continue to alienate its core constituency. Labour: Not Hartlepool, totally Hampstead.


    Ah yes. Starmer wants to let rapists into girls' changing rooms and allow men to chop off their dicks to win medals.

    Jesus wept.

    I think Bozo could force you and other cretinous cultists to drink his p*ss and you'd still adore him whilst wittering on about Labour and Brexit (which has been an unmitigated disaster - but feel free to be the first to state an actual tangible benefit it's brought) and the manufactured 'culture war'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Ah yes. Starmer wants to let rapists into girls' changing rooms and allow men to chop off their dicks to win medals.

    Jesus wept.

    I think Bozo could force you and other cretinous cultists to drink his p*ss and you'd still adore him whilst wittering on about Labour and Brexit (which has been an unmitigated disaster - but feel free to be the first to state an actual tangible benefit it's brought) and the manufactured 'culture war'
    I would’nt know where Starmer stands on the above. Being able to define a woman seems beyond him.

    The gall of the left to whinge about a culture war. Still enjoy Paul Embery's bit:

    "Trans women are women! 'Birthing people', not 'mothers'! Men have cervixes! Women have penises! Open up your single-sex spaces! Defund the Police!"

    "Erm, I think that's all wrong, actually."

    "Oh, stop it with your culture war!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    I would’nt know where Starmer stands on the above. Being able to define a woman seems beyond him.

    The gall of the left to whinge about a culture war. Still enjoy Paul Embery's bit:

    "Trans women are women! 'Birthing people', not 'mothers'! Men have cervixes! Women have penises! Open up your single-sex spaces! Defund the Police!"

    "Erm, I think that's all wrong, actually."

    "Oh, stop it with your culture war!"


    Only that's a gross misrepresentation of what actually takes place.

    Firstly, the 'culture war' encompasses far more than the trans issue. It plays on the whipped-up fears about immigrants and Muslims and 'British' culture being lost. The same kind of hysteria that saw some pillock fly a “BRITISH TO BE MINORITY BY 2066” banner over the Etihad on Sunday. In response to campaigners protesting against the glorification of slavers (they wanted the statues to be in museums or at worst have a storyboard explaining how they'd made their wealth by buying and selling enslaved human beings, and forcing them to work in brutal conditions on plantations) those on the right-wing screamed about 'trying to rewrite history' when actually, campaigners want the full history shown, not some sanitised version that whitewashes the awful facts. When the BLM protests broke - because, like, there is endemic racism that manifests itself into reduced life chances for black people - there were whiney right-wingers bleating that 'all lives matter' which spectacularly misses the point. All part of a general whinge that 'straight white men don't have anyone sticking up for them' (despite continuing to be the most privileged demographic in society)

    With regards to the trans debate, I don't take sides - and there's idiotic zealots on both sides. My own primary thought is that it must be awful to be trapped in the body on the wrong gender and I can't imagine how terrible it would be to have to live that life, so my first feeling is deep pity. I think anyone should have the right to correct their gender dysmorphia, and once fully transitioned should be able to change their legal status gender. But I believe untransitioned people should not have the legal status of the gender they identify as (and as an extension to that, shouldn't have access to 'safe places' like changing rooms, toilets, etc of the gender they identify as). And I think trans people need to accept that there could be pragmatic reasons why they cannot have a life free of sacrifices - such as they should not be able to compete in athletic/sport events of the gender they have transitioned to.

    But my own position is pretty irrelevant. The vast majority of people in the Labour Party aren't driving a huge debate. They are looking at the issue as a delicate balancing act to give rights to trans people without stamping on the toes of non-trans people who will be directly affected (like women). Interesting to note that, until the Tory Party was taken over by the current sociopaths after 2016, senior Tories like Cameron were supportive of trans rights - and certainly didn't try to milk the issue for political capital.

    Which takes us to the heart of the problem with the 'culture war'.

    It is manufactured. And the current Tory Party have fanned its flames to solidify an electoral base of a ' certain type of people' (I believe it was Cummings who drove it initially, although he was only following the tactics of the American 'Alt-Right', whose lunacy makes the current Brexit-Tory Party seem almost sane)

    So your/Embery's cute little analogy is simplistic sh*te, designed - like much in the 'culture war' - to avoid nuance in favour of glib and self-satisfied soundbites

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    That said, Starmer is making a dog's arse of the trans issue because he's trying to not offend both 'sides'. All it's doing is giving the Tories a target to aim at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    That said, Starmer is making a dog's arse of the trans issue because he's trying to not offend both 'sides'. All it's doing is giving the Tories a target to aim at.
    Of course it is. The Labour party have become more representative of a red wine drinker in Clifton, Bristol than your lad trying to earn a crust in Leigh.
    Sadly, the Hartlepool to Hampstead coalition is broken. I think Gray said it much earlier in this thread as to what a lot of modern leftists look and sound like. I despise the free ride that the Conservatives have had. They are more or less being gifted a free election pass for a combination of incompetence, arrogance and out of touch from too many elements of the postmodern left.

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    Learning All The Songs sinkers89's Avatar
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    Lets be honest here.

    Labour isnt reading the room when it comes to the country right now.


    With Boris in charge of the Tories, Labour should be able to stick a red badge on a donkey , present it as the labour leader and moonwalk into power at the next General elections.

    But they still seem to be ignoring their working class voters , who would be their majority of votes, and pandering to the more radical side of the left.

    Ive always voted Labour , being from Liverpool its kind of expected, but its slowly getting to the stage now where im almost tempted to just deface my vote because nothing really stands out. I read all the leaflets that come through the door and everything that labour sends through is just a list of things the Tories are doing wrong. Thats all well and good...but tell me what youre going to do right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    Lets be honest here.

    Labour isnt reading the room when it comes to the country right now.


    With Boris in charge of the Tories, Labour should be able to stick a red badge on a donkey , present it as the labour leader and moonwalk into power at the next General elections.

    But they still seem to be ignoring their working class voters , who would be their majority of votes, and pandering to the more radical side of the left.

    Ive always voted Labour , being from Liverpool its kind of expected, but its slowly getting to the stage now where im almost tempted to just deface my vote because nothing really stands out. I read all the leaflets that come through the door and everything that labour sends through is just a list of things the Tories are doing wrong. Thats all well and good...but tell me what youre going to do right?

    Genuine question, but in what way are Labour failing to 'read the room'?

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    I’ve come to the conclusion that all politicians regardless of which party are nothing more than paid actors.
    We squabble about race, sexuality, political leanings. These issues are magnified by the media in order to divide people. All these issues are a big distraction from the atrocities committed by the elites on a daily basis. We are being played, big time. A couple of years from now it won’t matter which way you lean politically. If people don’t wake up and see what is happening in plain sight we are all gonna be royally fu***d.
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Genuine question, but in what way are Labour failing to 'read the room'?
    If I was to point at one thing and this is purely my opinion..it would be its leadership. You have to have some one who is ultimately the "face" of the party that people like. Regardless of their political affiliations.

    Ed Milliband, Corbyn and even now with Starmer have all been pretty soft decisions.

    Ed was run ragged by David Cameron.
    Corbyn was showed up by Teresa May (in one of the worst Tory Parliaments ever)
    And currently Bozo is running riot because of a cleverly constructed build up of public presence of being a bumbling fool that all can get on with whilst Starmer is constantly playing catch up.

    I was a child up under Tony Blairs Labour.
    Ive then spent almost all of my adult life under a Tory Government and at no point have I ever felt that those leading Labour where ever going to win any election because they didnt stand out on anything. Even though I continued to vote Labour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Genuine question, but in what way are Labour failing to 'read the room'?
    That a few social justice warriors on Twitter does not equate to the wider opinions of the British public. Labour areínt getting reading / prioritising well on anything such as:
    - Immigration
    - The much more complex reason for Brexit
    - Importance of family, faith and community
    - Deindustrialisation
    - Wage stagnation and unemployment - especially in Northern, white towns. Instead they play a pathetic game of racial injustice that focuses on BAME victimhoods. Doddís racial injustice bill was the last straw for me; she was rightly hounded by Rakib Ehsan for that who ripped her spine out.

    Labour truly are pathetic. They are an Islingdon red winer drinkers club who will prattle on about Palestine, BLM, South American socialism, climate change and the ilk. Orwellís Road to Wigan Pier could have been written for them today.

    They need an absolute clear out and to be filled with people of the ilk of Paul Embery, Rakib Ehsan etc.

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    I believe that Starmer and his inner circle would be delighted if the whole trans debate and such like just disappeared, as they see no wins to be had out of it. However, in opting to not talk about it or give robotic answers to questions they are not reading the room when it comes to public opinion. I doubt many people are going around wanting to stop trans people living a free and safe life, but I believe the vast majority are uncomfortable with male bodied athletes competing with women, male bodied patients in women's wards in hospitals, women's prisons, etc. This is actually an easy win for Labour if they stick to common sense attitudes on this. Trans rights, sure, but women's rights in places were they are vulnerable, definitely. And with that, the argument goes away unless they wish to have their policy dictated to them by Owen Jones and co. on twitter. And the public wouldn't be giving them any grief and wouldn't even factor in this debate when considering to give them their vote, and the media wouldn't be going around in this ludicrous endeavour of asking Labour MPs to tell them what a woman is. Ludicrous, because they know half of the MPs are too scared to oppose 50 lunatics on twitter to give the answer that they know is true. This is why they are not 'reading the room'.

    Take this debate away and Labour will be in decent shape, mainly because the Tories are becoming a lifeless mess in government. I don't think they're a great opposition, but that hasn't mattered in the past. The sight of Starmer reading out stories of people who didn't see their loved ones during lockdown was very strange, given they all voted for it wholeheartedly and would have kept it going alot longer had they been in charge. Make the case against Boris and his lying but don't tell us that people lost out on seeing their loved ones because of the Tories, when lockdown was supported by medical experts, unions, the entire Labour party and most of the liberal media.

    End of the day, most elections are decided by how much the public perceive the Government of the day to be a safer option than the opposition. Most times an election has seen a change in govt it's been because the ruling party has been perceived to be a worse option than changing things, see 1979, 1997, 2010 etc. 2024 should be such an election, where the public should think to itself that no opposition should be a worse option than this government, but I strongly believe that the trans issue when it comes to sport and women's safety worries the voters, and Labour's position is so at odds with common sense it leaves the impression that they're not serious people. The fact that the opposition to the party's nonsensical attitude to women's issues is coming from those who support or want to support the party (Embery, Janice Turner in The Times, JK Rowling, etc) is telling. They are the Labour supporting figures who are reading the room because they see a golden opportunity for Labour to actually get back to some kind of electoral viability against an awful government but are ruining this golden opportunity by forever being flummoxed by some niche issue that they are getting completely wrong, to very little benefit to the party but potentially a whole lot of damage. There are other issues Labour isn't reading the room on, but they aren't electoral liabilities like the women's issues IMO.

    As for the last part, Labour isn't in need of a reset, it's too far down the line for that, they are what they are. If Embery, Ehsan and co want the party to be the common sense party they want them to be they are going to be waiting a long time. As a member for 20 years I worked out from attending meeting after meeting that issues like trans rights and tearing down statues were of greater significance to activists than economic equality, building houses, etc, so I eventually left. I hadn't become less left wing, they had simply changed the defining definition of what they thought left-wing was, and when a party is half a million strong and opts to become a social justice talking shop other than a left-wing workers party you just have to accept that you're in the minority and let the party be what its members want them to be. That's why I joined the SDP, became a regional chair, and I'm happy where I am and believe strongly that we are what the Labour party used to be and should be, but will never be again. All of those issues I have are mainly issues that won't vex the general public, and if they define how they will maintain women's safety in sport and in vulnerable areas such as the NHS, hospitals, toilets etc then the rest of it won't cost them. But it will cost them if they don't, as others have said, read the room on this issue.
    Last edited by Gray77; 20th April 2022 at 10:40.

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    So just because Labour are offering a standard boring plan to govern, without any three word slogans. The morons and idiots of this country will continue to vote for government led by a criminal, serial liar and who is incapable of accepting any responsibility for his actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    That a few social justice warriors on Twitter does not equate to the wider opinions of the British public. Labour are’nt getting reading / prioritising well on anything such as:
    - Immigration
    - The much more complex reason for Brexit
    - Importance of family, faith and community
    - Deindustrialisation
    - Wage stagnation and unemployment - especially in Northern, white towns. Instead they play a pathetic game of racial injustice that focuses on BAME victimhoods. Dodd’s racial injustice bill was the last straw for me; she was rightly hounded by Rakib Ehsan for that who ripped her spine out.

    Labour truly are pathetic. They are an Islingdon red winer drinkers club who will prattle on about Palestine, BLM, South American socialism, climate change and the ilk. Orwell’s Road to Wigan Pier could have been written for them today.

    They need an absolute clear out and to be filled with people of the ilk of Paul Embery, Rakib Ehsan etc.

    I think you overplay the role of the cliched 'Islington wine drinker's club'; the vast majority of people in the Labour Party are nothing like that. But even leaving that aside, what is the problem with having a government of people who want to 'do good'? Labour certainly aren't just about the social justice issues that you like to focus on. Like all parties, they have economic policies as well, and out of all the parties, their economic policies most seek to help and look out for working people.

    FWIW, I'm not a member of the Labour Party, and have only voted for them twice - in 2017 and 2019 - in the last seven GE's, mostly because I considered them too economically right-wing.

    I also think you're overblowing the way they're not 'reading the room'. They're now consistently shown to be being ahead in opinion polls. And before you start, yes I know how flawed OP's are - but they generally get the mood music in generally the right direction. After a small Bozo recovery, the polls are showing a re-widening of the Labour lead (last 2 OP's have Labour with an 11% and 8% lead)

    When you look at individual policy areas, the public is dissatisfied with the government handling of almost all issues - and their handling of immigration gets the second biggest dissatisfaction score (15% satisfied; 72% dissatisfied). Obviously there'll be some who think the government is being too soft, but also many who think they're just making a pig's arse of it. Also on Brexit, 56% are dissatisfied to 32% satisfied.

    Some very worrying figures for the government here:





    There's an increasing sense that the 'anti-woke' element like you are actually a small minority that as an electoral group are not that relevant -but you are very loud, and very active on social media.

    On a personal level, I think Embury is an absolute tw*t. His ideas and politics are very closely aligned with the ideas and politics of the 1990's/2000's BNP (seriously, there's so much correlation). He claims to stand up and speak for the working classes (like the BNP did) yet only actually speaks for a minority of them; there isn't a homogenous mass of a single core political beliefs within the working classes.

    I actually agree with him about corporate power being harmful to working people, and also decry the rise of globalisation that has seen the transfer of the mass-manufacturing function into 'sweatshop' economies. But that wasn't led or facilitated by the modern Labour Party. And the vast majority of the 'wokerati' would share his [claimed] disdain for corporate power and corporate-led globalisation.

    As far as Brexit goes, whether the EU is a force for good or bad (it's a combination of the two, but overall good for the UK) is a separate debate. But what a Tory-led hard-Brexit has done is increase friction for trade that adds red tape and costs to businesses; left us with renegotiated trade deals that are worse for the UK than the ones we had when under the EU umbrella; opened the doors for right-wing, laissez-fair capitalism militants to systematically weaken protections for workers, the environment and consumers; and - most importantly for a significant element of those that drove and funded the whole Brexit movement - keeps the British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies out of the investigatory clutches of EU tax and security organisations.


    I'm working class. I've spent several years as a union rep, been a victim of corporate c*ntishness on more than one occasion, and consider myself a true leftist. I'm socially liberal, have a family (house, wife, two kids, dog) and that works for me - but I'm happy that other people prefer different arrangements that work for them, and I've no wish to impose my preference on others. Religion can go f*ck itself, and I celebrate that it's become an irrelevancy (but again, if people want to believe in sky-fairies, then I've no wish to stop them). We had loads of strong communities but these were largely destroyed in the 80's by a combination of corporate greed and deliberate Tory/Thatcher policy to destroy solidarity between working peoples and the strength that that gave to trade unions. I'm straight, but recognise that others aren't and I'm delighted that they can now freely live their lives honestly and openly. I have an honest - rather than rose-tinted - opinion of Britain's past, and recognise that terrible atrocities and cruelties were perpetrated in my country's name and for its economic benefit, and want that relayed honestly to people and those that perpetrated these evils not blindly celebrated. And I despise nationalism/patriotism (different sides of the same rancid coin IMO)

    Embury (and all others of his ilk) don't speak for me, or reflect anything like my views.

    Labour are far from perfect. But they're the best hope for bringing in policies that help rather than penalise working people. And whilst I never voted for Bliar, I can recognise that the NuLabour governments did do some tangible good for working people - like the Minimum Wage, Sure Start, huge investment in schools and hospitals that had been deliberately run-down by successive and vindictive Tory governments, etc.

    the 'woke' stuff is a total irrelevance for me.

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I think you overplay the role of the cliched 'Islington wine drinker's club'; the vast majority of people in the Labour Party are nothing like that. But even leaving that aside, what is the problem with having a government of people who want to 'do good'? Labour certainly aren't just about the social justice issues that you like to focus on. Like all parties, they have economic policies as well, and out of all the parties, their economic policies most seek to help and look out for working people.

    FWIW, I'm not a member of the Labour Party, and have only voted for them twice - in 2017 and 2019 - in the last seven GE's, mostly because I considered them too economically right-wing.

    I also think you're overblowing the way they're not 'reading the room'. They're now consistently shown to be being ahead in opinion polls. And before you start, yes I know how flawed OP's are - but they generally get the mood music in generally the right direction. After a small Bozo recovery, the polls are showing a re-widening of the Labour lead (last 2 OP's have Labour with an 11% and 8% lead)

    When you look at individual policy areas, the public is dissatisfied with the government handling of almost all issues - and their handling of immigration gets the second biggest dissatisfaction score (15% satisfied; 72% dissatisfied). Obviously there'll be some who think the government is being too soft, but also many who think they're just making a pig's arse of it. Also on Brexit, 56% are dissatisfied to 32% satisfied.

    Some very worrying figures for the government here:





    There's an increasing sense that the 'anti-woke' element like you are actually a small minority that as an electoral group are not that relevant -but you are very loud, and very active on social media.

    On a personal level, I think Embury is an absolute tw*t. His ideas and politics are very closely aligned with the ideas and politics of the 1990's/2000's BNP (seriously, there's so much correlation). He claims to stand up and speak for the working classes (like the BNP did) yet only actually speaks for a minority of them; there isn't a homogenous mass of a single core political beliefs within the working classes.

    I actually agree with him about corporate power being harmful to working people, and also decry the rise of globalisation that has seen the transfer of the mass-manufacturing function into 'sweatshop' economies. But that wasn't led or facilitated by the modern Labour Party. And the vast majority of the 'wokerati' would share his [claimed] disdain for corporate power and corporate-led globalisation.

    As far as Brexit goes, whether the EU is a force for good or bad (it's a combination of the two, but overall good for the UK) is a separate debate. But what a Tory-led hard-Brexit has done is increase friction for trade that adds red tape and costs to businesses; left us with renegotiated trade deals that are worse for the UK than the ones we had when under the EU umbrella; opened the doors for right-wing, laissez-fair capitalism militants to systematically weaken protections for workers, the environment and consumers; and - most importantly for a significant element of those that drove and funded the whole Brexit movement - keeps the British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies out of the investigatory clutches of EU tax and security organisations.


    I'm working class. I've spent several years as a union rep, been a victim of corporate c*ntishness on more than one occasion, and consider myself a true leftist. I'm socially liberal, have a family (house, wife, two kids, dog) and that works for me - but I'm happy that other people prefer different arrangements that work for them, and I've no wish to impose my preference on others. Religion can go f*ck itself, and I celebrate that it's become an irrelevancy (but again, if people want to believe in sky-fairies, then I've no wish to stop them). We had loads of strong communities but these were largely destroyed in the 80's by a combination of corporate greed and deliberate Tory/Thatcher policy to destroy solidarity between working peoples and the strength that that gave to trade unions. I'm straight, but recognise that others aren't and I'm delighted that they can now freely live their lives honestly and openly. I have an honest - rather than rose-tinted - opinion of Britain's past, and recognise that terrible atrocities and cruelties were perpetrated in my country's name and for its economic benefit, and want that relayed honestly to people and those that perpetrated these evils not blindly celebrated. And I despise nationalism/patriotism (different sides of the same rancid coin IMO)

    Embury (and all others of his ilk) don't speak for me, or reflect anything like my views.

    Labour are far from perfect. But they're the best hope for bringing in policies that help rather than penalise working people. And whilst I never voted for Bliar, I can recognise that the NuLabour governments did do some tangible good for working people - like the Minimum Wage, Sure Start, huge investment in schools and hospitals that had been deliberately run-down by successive and vindictive Tory governments, etc.

    the 'woke' stuff is a total irrelevance for me.
    Damn that’s a long post. No way i could knock that up working 40 hours a week plus spending time with family. Credit to you
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Damn thatís a long post. No way i could knock that up working 40 hours a week plus spending time with family. Credit to you
    I guess not bothering to research and understand issues and ramifications, and instead choosing how to vote based on soundbites and simplifications is a major part of the problem afflicting UK politics in recent years.


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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I guess not bothering to research and understand issues and ramifications, and instead choosing how to vote based on soundbites and simplifications is a major part of the problem afflicting UK politics in recent years.

    Yeh you keep making assumptions and putting people in boxes mate. Good old tribal group thinking.
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

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    In a different direction...


    In the locals, I'm voting Green in protest against the local council's plans to convert acres of greenbelt into housing areas.


    I appreciate they're in a bind because dogmatic Govt regulation forces councils to make plans to show where x-thousand new homes will be built, but the areas chosen are terrible (it's mostly the green corridor separating the large towns of St Helens & Warrington) and favour huge new estates (that big housebuilders love as the economies off scale they can leverage maximise profits for these 'evil-b*stard', market-manipulating scum) instead of smaller (<25 house) estates that don't ruin the local community fabric.


    They're already building between 800-900 houses on brownfield land near the Sutton Morrisons, which is great as it brings redundant (former industrial land needing a lot of remediation to clear toxic pollutants) land back into use, but building on agricultural land and hedgerows/copses is eco-vandalism. Especially when, in the post-industrial shithole that is Sintellins, there's dozens of smaller pockets of brownfield land rotting away.

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    These will be the last 'free and fair' elections, until the first step of the Tory dismantling of our democracy becomes effective:


    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ectoral-reform



    The bill’s Trumpish voter suppression is designed to deter poor and young people from voting. Its passing also makes these the last elections to be monitored and scrutinised by a genuinely independent Electoral Commission. This habitually timid outfit tried to stand up for itself: “The independence of the Electoral Commission is vital to the functioning of a healthy democracy,” it said. But, as of now, Boris Johnson and his allies will set their own terms for the commission, including its scrutiny of finance.
    The opposition parties need to formulate some sort of electoral pact to get these hard-right, corrupt, lying, law-breaking shysters out of government. And, if successful, they need to replace FPTP with a Proportional Representation system.

  19. #119
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    If theres a low turn out in voting it won’t be because people can’t be arsed having their photo taken. It will be because folk right across the board have lost faith in political parties.

    I didn’t think you of all people would mind a simple photo ID to vote, Webbo. Aren’t you one of the fascists who said people should just shut up and get the vaccine in order to live alongside everyone else?
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    You're really making an equivalence between people accepting measures to control the ongoing spread of a deadly pandemic (killed up to 200k people in this country alone), with a government using Trumpist voter suppression tactics whilst claiming they are trying to 'solve' a problem that isn't there (there was one - ONE - proven incident of attempted voter fraud at the last election)?

    Really?


    Interesting point you make about people losing faith in politics. I tend to agree in a way. The perception many people have is that the quality of their lives has got worse and continues to worsen. They are fed a constant diet of consumerist brainwashing (advertising) where the overarching theme is that successful people buy this shiny new car/kitchen/exotic holiday/overpriced fashion-perfume-handbag-whatever. The media makes idols out of preening footballers and orange no-marks with fat lips and blindingly white teeth on reality TV. If you can't afford that shiny stuff, you're a failure. Then we have exposure to multi-millionaires and billionaires who've got incredibly rich doing something spurious, and who have £10m houses and Mayfair apartments, and stash all their millions offshore.

    And people realise, as they are f*cked around by their employer and working the longest hours in Europe because they have few workers' rights and unions have been castrated, that all that will forever be out of their reach. Look but don't touch. Instead, they look around at a crumbling country with a health service collapsing through underfunding; at local services disappeared through similar lack of funds; at feral youths bringing misery through anti-social behaviour; at potholed and overcrowded roads. And they fear for their retirement (because final salary pensions went out with the Boomers and in the name of protecting huge profits for corporations), and fear that their kids won't be able to get on the housing ladder (and even graduates are starting adult life with a £50k student debt draped round their necks).

    They think back to the optimism of NuLabour, then the disillusionment when nothing really changed. The government still kissed big business arse. They still let the super-rich avoid tax. They still flogged off public-owned infrastructure and sold public-sector jobs to profit-chasing private companies. They still kept the anti-worker laws of the Thatcher government. They still continued the process of shifting the tax burden away from progressive, direct taxes and onto indirect, regressive taxes. They still kept a slavish adherence to corporate-capitalism. Even when the greed and incompetence and corruption of the banks brought our economy to its knees, they bailed them out without putting them in shackles so their 'casino banking' could never happen again.

    So much dissatisfaction and a sense of disenfranchisement amongst those who never experienced the 'good times'.

    And yet, instead of directing their anger at the real culprits - profiteering corporations, tax-dodging by the super-rich, banksters, the whole f*cking corporate-capitalism ethos - too many allowed themselves to be brainwashed by a right-wing media intent on that classic conjurer's trick of diversion. They fell for the propaganda to blame the immigrants, the 'wokists', the benefit 'scroungers', unions, loony-lefties.

    When we had the only properly leftist leader of a major party in a generation, the very people - working class people on ordinary incomes - who that party wanted to help (and their manifesto wasn't even that radical) allowed themselves to be convinced he was some psychotic, anti-Semitic enemy of the state that only cared for terrorists and would sell us all out to Russia (quite an irony, given the amount of funding the Tory Party receives from Russian kleptocrats), and voted for the Party that exists primarily to perpetuate the gap between the rich and the plebs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    You're really making an equivalence between people accepting measures to control the ongoing spread of a deadly pandemic (killed up to 200k people in this country alone), with a government using Trumpist voter suppression tactics whilst claiming they are trying to 'solve' a problem that isn't there (there was one - ONE - proven incident of attempted voter fraud at the last election)?

    Really?


    Interesting point you make about people losing faith in politics. I tend to agree in a way. The perception many people have is that the quality of their lives has got worse and continues to worsen. They are fed a constant diet of consumerist brainwashing (advertising) where the overarching theme is that successful people buy this shiny new car/kitchen/exotic holiday/overpriced fashion-perfume-handbag-whatever. The media makes idols out of preening footballers and orange no-marks with fat lips and blindingly white teeth on reality TV. If you can't afford that shiny stuff, you're a failure. Then we have exposure to multi-millionaires and billionaires who've got incredibly rich doing something spurious, and who have £10m houses and Mayfair apartments, and stash all their millions offshore.

    And people realise, as they are f*cked around by their employer and working the longest hours in Europe because they have few workers' rights and unions have been castrated, that all that will forever be out of their reach. Look but don't touch. Instead, they look around at a crumbling country with a health service collapsing through underfunding; at local services disappeared through similar lack of funds; at feral youths bringing misery through anti-social behaviour; at potholed and overcrowded roads. And they fear for their retirement (because final salary pensions went out with the Boomers and in the name of protecting huge profits for corporations), and fear that their kids won't be able to get on the housing ladder (and even graduates are starting adult life with a £50k student debt draped round their necks).

    They think back to the optimism of NuLabour, then the disillusionment when nothing really changed. The government still kissed big business arse. They still let the super-rich avoid tax. They still flogged off public-owned infrastructure and sold public-sector jobs to profit-chasing private companies. They still kept the anti-worker laws of the Thatcher government. They still continued the process of shifting the tax burden away from progressive, direct taxes and onto indirect, regressive taxes. They still kept a slavish adherence to corporate-capitalism. Even when the greed and incompetence and corruption of the banks brought our economy to its knees, they bailed them out without putting them in shackles so their 'casino banking' could never happen again.

    So much dissatisfaction and a sense of disenfranchisement amongst those who never experienced the 'good times'.

    And yet, instead of directing their anger at the real culprits - profiteering corporations, tax-dodging by the super-rich, banksters, the whole f*cking corporate-capitalism ethos - too many allowed themselves to be brainwashed by a right-wing media intent on that classic conjurer's trick of diversion. They fell for the propaganda to blame the immigrants, the 'wokists', the benefit 'scroungers', unions, loony-lefties.

    When we had the only properly leftist leader of a major party in a generation, the very people - working class people on ordinary incomes - who that party wanted to help (and their manifesto wasn't even that radical) allowed themselves to be convinced he was some psychotic, anti-Semitic enemy of the state that only cared for terrorists and would sell us all out to Russia (quite an irony, given the amount of funding the Tory Party receives from Russian kleptocrats), and voted for the Party that exists primarily to perpetuate the gap between the rich and the plebs.
    I'd say that's quite the leap of faith. It ignores that large parts of the population are socially conservative for a start. You mentioned 'the woke stuff was an irrelevance' but is that not following the usual leftist trick of trying to downplay or obfuscate anything they are asked to quantify?

    I'd argue that it isn't irrelevant at all. When Jordan Peterson humiliated Cathy Newman in the infamous C4 interview he articulated the strains of intolerance that imbued in this line of thinking and why it is a threat; in fact ask Maya Forstater, Kathleen Stock, Alison Bailey whether it was 'irrelevant' for them? Its why I became totally disillusioned with Left wing politics: its confrontational nature/language, its absolute certainty of its moral compass and ultimately its scepticism of competence. Living near Bristol I was appalled at some of the antics that went on and the outright disregard for law; mostly carried out by people who I would'nt trust to properly organise their own lives let alone address the ills of wider society.

    Its partly why Swindon, Nuneaton and Walsall have remained Conservative holds because the electorate are'nnt as stupid as it seems you seem to imply; they just have different beliefs and values. Or alternatively the point on immigration should not not be downplayed, it seems to betray the point that the wages/income of those in blue collar / semi skilled jobs have reduced in real terms as the borders became relaxed during our membership of the EU. Ironically at the same time key skills workers from non EU countries were subject to a raft of red tape but that is an argument for another day. The point here is that these are genuine concerns and they are constantly dismissed by Labour as some sort of 'gammon' thinking. Labour can carry on doing this but that just creates more opportunities for the likes of Ben Houchen in Hartlepool. If I were a Tory I'd be egging Labour on in this repsect.

    On a personal level I deprecate Johnson who I find a narcissist who at worst believes in very little but a vague set of romantic 'blue' ideals but mainly his own ego. His tenure is characterised by little of any substance nor many policies that are well thought out. There needs to be a serious challenge to his leadership and a credible set of policies that offers hope, but they should not be based on victimhood (e.g Dodd's racial bill), 'equity' and other social niches. They should be based on competence, personal responsibility and regeneration. I've yet to see a senior Labour MP translate how they'd address the deindustrialisation of the North. A huge skills opportunity is being lost.

    Ultimately the Labour Party has transitioned into becoming a party that preaches unto itself and as Gray pointed out is becoming more distanced from those working classes.

  22. #122
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    You're really making an equivalence between people accepting measures to control the ongoing spread of a deadly pandemic (killed up to 200k people in this country alone), with a government using Trumpist voter suppression tactics whilst claiming they are trying to 'solve' a problem that isn't there (there was one - ONE - proven incident of attempted voter fraud at the last election)?

    Really?


    Interesting point you make about people losing faith in politics. I tend to agree in a way. The perception many people have is that the quality of their lives has got worse and continues to worsen. They are fed a constant diet of consumerist brainwashing (advertising) where the overarching theme is that successful people buy this shiny new car/kitchen/exotic holiday/overpriced fashion-perfume-handbag-whatever. The media makes idols out of preening footballers and orange no-marks with fat lips and blindingly white teeth on reality TV. If you can't afford that shiny stuff, you're a failure. Then we have exposure to multi-millionaires and billionaires who've got incredibly rich doing something spurious, and who have £10m houses and Mayfair apartments, and stash all their millions offshore.

    And people realise, as they are f*cked around by their employer and working the longest hours in Europe because they have few workers' rights and unions have been castrated, that all that will forever be out of their reach. Look but don't touch. Instead, they look around at a crumbling country with a health service collapsing through underfunding; at local services disappeared through similar lack of funds; at feral youths bringing misery through anti-social behaviour; at potholed and overcrowded roads. And they fear for their retirement (because final salary pensions went out with the Boomers and in the name of protecting huge profits for corporations), and fear that their kids won't be able to get on the housing ladder (and even graduates are starting adult life with a £50k student debt draped round their necks).

    They think back to the optimism of NuLabour, then the disillusionment when nothing really changed. The government still kissed big business arse. They still let the super-rich avoid tax. They still flogged off public-owned infrastructure and sold public-sector jobs to profit-chasing private companies. They still kept the anti-worker laws of the Thatcher government. They still continued the process of shifting the tax burden away from progressive, direct taxes and onto indirect, regressive taxes. They still kept a slavish adherence to corporate-capitalism. Even when the greed and incompetence and corruption of the banks brought our economy to its knees, they bailed them out without putting them in shackles so their 'casino banking' could never happen again.

    So much dissatisfaction and a sense of disenfranchisement amongst those who never experienced the 'good times'.

    And yet, instead of directing their anger at the real culprits - profiteering corporations, tax-dodging by the super-rich, banksters, the whole f*cking corporate-capitalism ethos - too many allowed themselves to be brainwashed by a right-wing media intent on that classic conjurer's trick of diversion. They fell for the propaganda to blame the immigrants, the 'wokists', the benefit 'scroungers', unions, loony-lefties.

    When we had the only properly leftist leader of a major party in a generation, the very people - working class people on ordinary incomes - who that party wanted to help (and their manifesto wasn't even that radical) allowed themselves to be convinced he was some psychotic, anti-Semitic enemy of the state that only cared for terrorists and would sell us all out to Russia (quite an irony, given the amount of funding the Tory Party receives from Russian kleptocrats), and voted for the Party that exists primarily to perpetuate the gap between the rich and the plebs.
    You’re good with words Webbo I’ll give you that
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

  23. #123
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Is anyone else considering cancelling their Netflix subscription after suffering the first 2 episodes of Stranger Things series 4?

    Good grief. My mrs loves it.
    Times like this i really wish I’m single
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

  24. #124
    In The South Stand retro74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Is anyone else considering cancelling their Netflix subscription after suffering the first 2 episodes of Stranger Things series 4?

    Good grief. My mrs loves it.
    Times like this i really wish I’m single
    Did you watch series 1-3? That might help

    I’ve only watched one episode of series 4, it was excellent. Looking forward to watching the rest

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by retro74 View Post
    Did you watch series 1-3? That might help

    I’ve only watched one episode of series 4, it was excellent. Looking forward to watching the rest

    I enjoyed Queen of the South. Thought it was really good

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