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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    One of my sons mentioned to his school teachers that i watch Jordan Petersons videos on YouTube. To which his teacher replied ‘oh that Canadian nazi?’ It really is shocking how the left toss around terms like ‘nazi’ and ‘alt-right’ trivialising such terms to the degree that it’s an insult to those who lived through the holocaust.
    I'd encourage you to ready up on the Lindsay Shepherd scandal and the Wilfed Laurier scandal. In particular it may warn the said teacher why it may be advisable to chose words very carefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    I'd encourage you to ready up on the Lindsay Shepherd scandal and the Wilfed Laurier scandal. In particular it may warn the said teacher why it may be advisable to chose words very carefully.
    Thanks Eddie i will check it out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Without replying to specific points (as it'd take me to long!) I will say that the image presented by each of the three of you is not the Labour Party I see, is not representative of the Labour/leftist people I know.

    The ones I know want to make society fairer and less unequal, want address huge wealth inequality, corporate control, and tax dodging.

    I do agree that in terms of ability, the current party is lacking - but then, that applies equally to the Tory Party (Bozo, Hancock, Patel, Gove, etc). Politicians in general are in the UK are poor (I think the most able by a long chalk is Sturgeon)
    The thing is Webbo to explain how this society will work and why we have moved so far down the hole of sleaze and downright corruption, will as you say take a long time and will involve people grasping complex issues. It is much easier to say Labour ‘want to give a man a fish, rather than teach him how to fish’ and claim that anything slightly left of politics is the liberal elite pushing their ideology on the real world.

    Unfortunately these people can’t grasp complex issues, if something can’t be cut up into short sound bites they they are somehow unable to process the information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    The thing is Webbo to explain how this society will work and why we have moved so far down the hole of sleaze and downright corruption, will as you say take a long time and will involve people grasping complex issues. It is much easier to say Labour ‘want to give a man a fish, rather than teach him how to fish’ and claim that anything slightly left of politics is the liberal elite pushing their ideology on the real world.

    Unfortunately these people canÂ’t grasp complex issues, if something canÂ’t be cut up into short sound bites they they are somehow unable to process the information.
    On the contrary I think people are capable of ‘grasping complex issues,’ they are just cynical of the collective being prioritised to the extent that it is over the individual. To deny the pervasive and pernicious rise of this thought in universities, HR departments and corporate branding as just a few examples is downright disingenuous.

    There are big problems in society that a narrowly focused cabal of liberal, suburbanites from that it is difficult to believe this Labour party want to address let alone resolve. Theyll bang on about trans rights ad nauseum but you are not likely to hear anything anytime soon at their wine tasting club about the terrible suicide statistics in St Helens amongst young men.

    Effectively Gray has already covered this but its worth reemphasizing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    On the contrary I think people are capable of ‘grasping complex issues,’ they are just cynical of the collective being prioritised to the extent that it is over the individual. To deny the pervasive and pernicious rise of this thought in universities, HR departments and corporate branding as just a few examples is downright disingenuous.

    There are big problems in society that a narrowly focused cabal of liberal, suburbanites from that it is difficult to believe this Labour party want to address let alone resolve. Theyll bang on about trans rights ad nauseum but you are not likely to hear anything anytime soon at their wine tasting club about the terrible suicide statistics in St Helens amongst young men.

    Effectively Gray has already covered this but its worth reemphasizing.
    Some nice big words in that statement. And nice stereotypes, it still is just sound bites.

    However mental health is one of my major concerns and interests and it is a lot more complex than a short sound bite can cover, and frankly this isn’t the place where I will waste my time trying (in vain) to explain it to anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Some nice big words in that statement. And nice stereotypes, it still is just sound bites.

    However mental health is one of my major concerns and interests and it is a lot more complex than a short sound bite can cover, and frankly this isn’t the place where I will waste my time trying (in vain) to explain it to anyone.
    It may be to you and I can't help thinking your trying to take the moral highground; there's a pernicious level of condescension in everything you've posted in this thread: effectively people don't agree with me so it must be they don't understand; they are reducing an argument to soundbites. The modern day Labour party shared the same conviction and (as well as being out of touch with anything outside the Islingdon bubble) its why they got hammered at the last election and are on track to lose another Red Wall seat in Hartlepool.

    How about formulating your questions so they come across as less passive-aggressive or actually elaborate with more quantified examples to support your viewpoint? Its risible to dismiss someone's view as a 'soundbite' just because you disagree with it, but the left has an increasingly dishonourable history of censoring things they don't like or as I say, taking the moral highground to isolate positions that don't fit in with their narrative. It happened with Brexit when modern Labour conveniently forgot its Eurosceptic history, the likes of Peter Shore, Tony Benn etc because it didn't suit the line that those who voted for it were capable of thinking for themselves.

    On your last point, I wouldn't expect you to explain mental health issues on this particular forum. I'm not sure that statement is congruous - why would we expect you to explain them on here? Do we need educating as to what they are? Have we all not had any direct experience with them? What makes you more qualified to explain them. That's some segue to say the least not withstanding the how arrogant it sounds too.
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 22nd April 2021 at 10:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    The thing is Webbo to explain how this society will work and why we have moved so far down the hole of sleaze and downright corruption, will as you say take a long time and will involve people grasping complex issues. It is much easier to say Labour ‘want to give a man a fish, rather than teach him how to fish’ and claim that anything slightly left of politics is the liberal elite pushing their ideology on the real world.

    Unfortunately these people can’t grasp complex issues, if something can’t be cut up into short sound bites they they are somehow unable to process the information.
    Translates as

    ‘I have no citations at hand, but im educated, you aren’t. I’m intelligent, you aren’t. I’m informed, you aren’t. Trust me, i just know better. Don’t question that. You’re much better off just keeping quiet.’

    Ok got ya.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Unfortunately these people can’t grasp complex issues, if something can’t be cut up into short sound bites they they are somehow unable to process the information.
    I've been on the Left all my life, still believe in left-wing economic answers to societies big issues, but I do not support this Labour party (who I was an active member of for 20 years) because economic answers for them are well down their list of priorities beneath social justice niche issues.

    I have a Politics degree and a Masters degree in Contemporary History and Politics, so not sure your 'sound bite' theory gets you too far. I have also listed reasons why the modern Left's obsessions with the EU and niche issues completely goes against the thoughts and actions of leading members of the Left like Benn, Shore, Foot etc in previous eras yet nobody has deemed it worth their while to argue against this, and instead anyone who disagrees with the modern progressive social agenda is accused of being thick. That isn't good enough mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I've been on the Left all my life, still believe in left-wing economic answers to societies big issues, but I do not support this Labour party (who I was an active member of for 20 years) because economic answers for them are well down their list of priorities beneath social justice niche issues.

    I have a Politics degree and a Masters degree in Contemporary History and Politics, so not sure your 'sound bite' theory gets you too far. I have also listed reasons why the modern Left's obsessions with the EU and niche issues completely goes against the thoughts and actions of leading members of the Left like Benn, Shore, Foot etc in previous eras yet nobody has deemed it worth their while to argue against this, and instead anyone who disagrees with the modern progressive social agenda is accused of being thick. That isn't good enough mate.
    Redistribution of wealth is so old-school mate ;-)

    Anyway the modern Labour party in a nutshell:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DawnButle...37943025541122

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Redistribution of wealth is so old-school mate ;-)

    Anyway the modern Labour party in a nutshell:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DawnButle...37943025541122
    Dawn Butler is trash. I’m guessing she’s talking about Kemi Badenoch. A black person who doesn’t follow the narrative. Racial gatekeeper is just a more subtle way of labelling a free thinking black person as an uncle Tom or coon.
    ‘If you don’t think the same way as us then you are no longer real black’. It’s disgusting behaviour from people like Dawn Butler.
    Last edited by fishy3005; 23rd April 2021 at 07:44.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I've been on the Left all my life, still believe in left-wing economic answers to societies big issues, but I do not support this Labour party (who I was an active member of for 20 years) because economic answers for them are well down their list of priorities beneath social justice niche issues.

    I have a Politics degree and a Masters degree in Contemporary History and Politics, so not sure your 'sound bite' theory gets you too far. I have also listed reasons why the modern Left's obsessions with the EU and niche issues completely goes against the thoughts and actions of leading members of the Left like Benn, Shore, Foot etc in previous eras yet nobody has deemed it worth their while to argue against this, and instead anyone who disagrees with the modern progressive social agenda is accused of being thick. That isn't good enough mate.

    Out of the three of you active 'anti-Labour' contributors on here, it's your position I find confusing. The other two clearly few/no leanings toward progressive economics, so them focusing on 'culture war' issues to scorn 'leftists' is understandable.

    You, on the other hand, are presenting a picture of Labour that I don't really find accurate. I'll actually agree that there's too much focus on 'culture war' issues by the left in general, but this doesn't animate me at all. These sort of policies are aired by people wanting to make society fairer for all, so groups that have traditionally been ostracised and the subject of prejudice. I don't agree with all that is proposed, but know that a) I'm from the least discriminated against group going (white, heterosexual male); and b) advocates usually have their hearts in the right place.

    But it's the economic issues that I'm most confused about. You say that progressive economic policy is 'well down the list of priorities' for Labour. I strongly disagree, especially so under Corbyn. Both the 2017 and 2019 manifestos focused primarily on economic issues; the 2017 manifesto (which was predominantly 'mid-left', and definitely not hard-left) is about as close to my economic beliefs as any manifesto has come.

    More and better-funded public services, strengthened workers' rights, investment in public infrastructure, a huge programme of social housebuilding, nationalising utilities (electricity, gas, water) to remove profiteering from these essentials, more progressive taxation system. All still broad goals of Labour.

    I don't know if you're trying to justify your voting intentions to yourself or what, but if you still hold leftist economic leanings, then to vote Tory seems totally counter-intuitive. I can only presume that the 'culture war' issues have become more important to you than economic considerations.

    Incidentally, I'm not actually a Labour person. I'm 49 and have voted for them in just 3 elections (92, 17, 19). A lot of that comes from being here in the super-safe seat of St Helens North and so having the freedom to use my vote as a protest (4 times for whatever socialist party stood, once for the Lib Dems, who had a more economically progressive manifesto) but I couldn't vote for Tory Bliar and NuLabour.

    PS - WRT the EU, my opposition to leaving is that a) over 40+ years, our economy and a fair bit of our social policy has become intrinsically linked to it, and to de-couple from it would be hugely damaging and costly and create too many losers for very little tangible benefit for the vast majority; b) the main funders and drivers for the whole anti-EU movement are those with financial interests in retaining the secretive financial/corporate jurisdictions of the Crown Dependencies (Channel Islands, IoM) and British Overseas Territories (Cayman Islands, British Virgin Isles, etc) that facilitate massive tax-dodging and asset-hiding by not just the super-rich, but by organised crime groups, embezzling dictators and they family/friend networks, etc) and the EU has increasingly sought to rip open that veil of secrecy through the ATAD & AMLD legislation; and c) I grew up under the horrendous policies of the Thatcher, and it seemed every positive piece of legislation (workers' rights/health & safety, environmental protections, consumer regulations) derived from the EU with the Tories kicking and screaming to resist, so I view the EU as generally a force for progressive and social good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I don't know if you're trying to justify your voting intentions to yourself or what, but if you still hold leftist economic leanings, then to vote Tory seems totally counter-intuitive. I can only presume that the 'culture war' issues have become more important to you than economic considerations.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, steady now. Voting Tory? Never have, never will, not happening.

    I know exactly where my voting intentions are. I joined the SDP last summer, I'm an officer for the party in the North West and I support them wholeheartedly. They combine left-economics with a more common sense social policy, they are basically what Labour should be, a social democratic party that understands working class values. We are small but we are growing, and I'm very happy were I am. A lot of us are disaffected Labour people from Merseyside and Manchester who moved away from the party at various stages in the last decade or so.

    The Labour Party is dying outside of big cities and university campuses, it'll get worse for them, but the Tories are just the current established party taking advantage. They'll let people down and people will realise they don't really care about them. In 5-10 years time things will change, another party will be there for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, steady now. Voting Tory? Never have, never will, not happening.

    I know exactly where my voting intentions are. I joined the SDP last summer, I'm an officer for the party in the North West and I support them wholeheartedly. They combine left-economics with a more common sense social policy, they are basically what Labour should be, a social democratic party that understands working class values. We are small but we are growing, and I'm very happy were I am. A lot of us are disaffected Labour people from Merseyside and Manchester who moved away from the party at various stages in the last decade or so.

    The Labour Party is dying outside of big cities and university campuses, it'll get worse for them, but the Tories are just the current established party taking advantage. They'll let people down and people will realise they don't really care about them. In 5-10 years time things will change, another party will be there for them.

    Ah, OK. Apologies for misunderstanding your political position. Fair play to you for having the drive to follow through with taking your political beliefs to a practical level.

    I'm genuinely interested in how 'culture wars' issues have become so critical to people's overall political viewpoints. But it's difficult to have a rational discussion as anger tends to quickly surface and people soon become entrenched.

    I'd also be interested in what motivates your own anti-EU position, and your response to the points I made as helping guide my pro-Remain stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Ah, OK. Apologies for misunderstanding your political position. Fair play to you for having the drive to follow through with taking your political beliefs to a practical level.

    I'm genuinely interested in how 'culture wars' issues have become so critical to people's overall political viewpoints. But it's difficult to have a rational discussion as anger tends to quickly surface and people soon become entrenched.

    I'd also be interested in what motivates your own anti-EU position, and your response to the points I made as helping guide my pro-Remain stance.
    No worries.

    To be honest I've never (I don't think) ever had a go at anyone for being pro-EU, I get it completely. It's an economic family, it's a sense of European identity, its greater than the sum of its parts and it's done some good in terms of workers rights, social and environmental policy, etc. I get all that, I'm not one for bagging people for being pro-EU, it's a perfectly valid viewpoint.

    When I have more time I'll explain not why I am 'anti-EU' but why I voted to leave it from a purely left wing point of view and I hope other countries do the same, but I don't have time right now.

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    I was a labour voter all my life until corbyn took charge, as an ex serviceman I couldn't bring myself to vote for that man to be PM

    Not sure starmer is the man to lead us but he is an improvement on jezza and I'll be voting labour again

    Labour need to realise the things that actually matter day to day to people eg employment,health care, schools crime and migration and make some decisions on them that the majority of the public will support,If it upsets some of corbyn 's vocal support base too bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Ah, OK. Apologies for misunderstanding your political position. Fair play to you for having the drive to follow through with taking your political beliefs to a practical level.

    I'm genuinely interested in how 'culture wars' issues have become so critical to people's overall political viewpoints. But it's difficult to have a rational discussion as anger tends to quickly surface and people soon become entrenched.

    I'd also be interested in what motivates your own anti-EU position, and your response to the points I made as helping guide my pro-Remain stance.
    You’re pretty good at making assumptions about people Webbo. You know why he’s against the EU. All leave voters are ‘Sun newspaper reading, xenophobic, racist fu**wits’ aren’t they? Any other reason for leaving the EU will fall on your deaf ears anyway i imagine.

    Its like when white liberals come face to face with black conservative people, black people who don’t feel oppressed, or BAME people who voted for Brexit. You can smell the motherboard in their heads smoking because it doesn’t compute with them.
    ‘You can’t have voted Brexit! You’re not a white middle aged racist bloke!’
    ‘You’re black! How dare you not feel oppressed!’
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    I was a labour voter all my life until corbyn took charge, as an ex serviceman I couldn't bring myself to vote for that man to be PM

    Not sure starmer is the man to lead us but he is an improvement on jezza and I'll be voting labour again

    Labour need to realise the things that actually matter day to day to people eg employment,health care, schools crime and migration and make some decisions on them that the majority of the public will support,If it upsets some of corbyn 's vocal support base too bad

    Not looking for a row, just a debate - but what about Corbyn's manifesto didn't address those issues?

    As an aside, I don't oppose freedom of movement within the EU. When tradespeople from the EU came over hear, they broke the profiteering of British tradespeople. The cost for jobs like plumbing, plastering, electrics, joinery, roofing, building, etc fell - and IMO the quality and speed both improved. And in every year of our EU membership, immigration from outside the the EU was greater than immigration from inside. Successive governments (Tory & Labour) could have hugely reduced immigration by limiting immigration from outside the EU, yet chose not to. Perhaps because employers will always want a surplus of labour supply over labour demand, to help keep wages & workers' rights suppressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    You’re pretty good at making assumptions about people Webbo.

    Says the guy who then went onto make an entire post comprised of making assumptions about other people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Says the guy who then went onto make an entire post comprised of making assumptions about other people
    Touché
    But i painted a general picture of a collective. The far lefties. I don’t make assumptions about an individual and put them in a certain box. Its different.


    I think
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Not looking for a row, just a debate - but what about Corbyn's manifesto didn't address those issues?

    As an aside, I don't oppose freedom of movement within the EU. When tradespeople from the EU came over hear, they broke the profiteering of British tradespeople. The cost for jobs like plumbing, plastering, electrics, joinery, roofing, building, etc fell - and IMO the quality and speed both improved. And in every year of our EU membership, immigration from outside the the EU was greater than immigration from inside. Successive governments (Tory & Labour) could have hugely reduced immigration by limiting immigration from outside the EU, yet chose not to. Perhaps because employers will always want a surplus of labour supply over labour demand, to help keep wages & workers' rights suppressed.


    a) he wouldn't say if he was pro or anti eu and in fact he said he and his party would get a deal but wouldn't support or oppose it?
    b) his party wouldn't say if they would bring an amnesty for illegal migrants (abbot was pressed on live tv a few times and wouldn't comment just said they would want a fairer system but didn't say what that was )
    c) crime he came across as a real soft touch, he himself voted against every bill raised to give the police and security services more power as did most of his shadow cabinet.
    d) education I thought he had some good ideas in fairness and he did with the NHS and I have no doubt labour would have invested heavily in these two areas

    All his good ideas just became meaningless because a) people didn't like him b) he appointed people to position of power the public didn't like c) he got caught up in daft nonsense like that wreath laying rubbish and d) his spending plans became more lavish the closer we got to polling day eg free internet, planting endless amount of trees the costs just didn't stack up and people became confused with all the promises being made and frankly lost all faith in him

    Let's be honest boris is a real wrong un and so are most of the cabinet but they won at a canter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Not looking for a row, just a debate - but what about Corbyn's manifesto didn't address those issues?
    I'll get back to the EU thing another time but on this. Corbyn's manifesto was irrelevant, Corbyn himself was the problem. It's quite clear he doesn't like the country he lives in, and it showed time after time. When he said he couldn't ever envisage using our military in a time of such global unrest and trouble that showed he was out of his depth. When he refused to blame Putin for Salisbury and said we should ask him about it, that showed that he valued the word of a despot over his own countries intelligence services. His economics or manifesto were irrelevant when compared to his utter ineptitude at showing people that as PM he would protect the country. We're not asking for a warmonger or someone who shoots first and thinks later, but we would like to know that when a rogue state poisons people in our country that a potential PM doesn't take the side of the rogue state, and we'd like to believe that if faced with danger that our PM would seek to defend us. Those are simple little things that are easy for accomplished politicians which he failed at. And without going back to the EU, he opposed the EU all his political life, for similar reasons I do. A clear and consistent opposition to what the EU stood for in opposition to his beliefs, but faced with complaints from members who 5 years earlier wouldn't have given Labour the time of day (and who have now probably left) he went against his entire worldview to pacify them. All of those things show moral cowardice and a lack of backbone to do the job.

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    Corbyn was a joke. He sat on the fence on pretty much EVERYTHING. The only things that he ever said with any certainty was that the tories were bad. I understand that he was the leader of the opposition but he took the party politics way too far at a time when we needed some compromise and constructive thinking from all sides with Brexit looming. If the tories said the sky was blue he and his cronies said it was green just for the sake of it.
    He was a mess and i don’t think he ever had the bottle (or even wanted) to lead the country. He just wanted to be an epic pain in the arse and scupper everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I'll get back to the EU thing another time but on this. Corbyn's manifesto was irrelevant, Corbyn himself was the problem. It's quite clear he doesn't like the country he lives in, and it showed time after time. When he said he couldn't ever envisage using our military in a time of such global unrest and trouble that showed he was out of his depth. When he refused to blame Putin for Salisbury and said we should ask him about it, that showed that he valued the word of a despot over his own countries intelligence services. His economics or manifesto were irrelevant when compared to his utter ineptitude at showing people that as PM he would protect the country. We're not asking for a warmonger or someone who shoots first and thinks later, but we would like to know that when a rogue state poisons people in our country that a potential PM doesn't take the side of the rogue state, and we'd like to believe that if faced with danger that our PM would seek to defend us. Those are simple little things that are easy for accomplished politicians which he failed at. And without going back to the EU, he opposed the EU all his political life, for similar reasons I do. A clear and consistent opposition to what the EU stood for in opposition to his beliefs, but faced with complaints from members who 5 years earlier wouldn't have given Labour the time of day (and who have now probably left) he went against his entire worldview to pacify them. All of those things show moral cowardice and a lack of backbone to do the job.
    Though I agree with much of that, the problem there appears to be Corbyn the leader rather than the contents of the manifesto. To answer Webbo's question:

    Personally I didn't like the tone of the manifesto - i.e "It’s time to take on the vested interests holding people back. The last decade has seen a wealth grab by a privileged few, supported by the Conservatives, at the expense of the majority." I found that type of language was a step too far: a victim/oppressor narrative. Personally I've never felt oppressed by Labour or Conservative politics to the extent that say my Dad would have been when Hanson was threatening to takeover Pilks; that world seemed very different. I've never felt the state directly influence my life to the extent that the manifesto implies; life as a whole is characterised as chaos/disorder and acknowledgement of it and therein personal responsibility is to me a far better answer than looking too much at the state for solutions, though my view is the state should be compassionate as a principle.

    There were promises "Labour will build a fairer Britain that cares for all, where wealth and power are shared." Why should wealth by shared? That's a massive leap from saying say, Labour is committed to a refocussing the distribution of wealth. To me meaning in life is directly relative to the risks and responsibility people take in life. I could give every Ł1m in St. Helens but I can guarantee some people would still be miserable. To take this further an old Tory blowhard used to put it as thus:

    "Lord of the Flies. You could give a lift and shift people to an imaginary island and give them all the same amount when they get their to live their life and you'll find some who are millionaires and some who are on the are poor after a year."

    The manifesto also promised to "launch the largest-scale investment programme in modern times to fund the jobs and industries of the future, so that no one is held back and no community left behind. This is a fully costed programme to upgrade our economy and transform our country." How? I never saw a compelling narrative of how that would be achieved. Most of the manufacturing industry has been decimated; how is that so easily rekindled? Such a project would be a massive undertaking and one I'd expect a manifesto to be clear and honest on. On top of this is that for years people in communities like St Helens or Dagenham suffered the effects of globalisation, job uncertainty by a flood of supply from mass migration of blue collar workers were told 'multiculturalism was good for them by the same party. It may be but it don't put bread on the table does it?

    "We will bring rail, mail, water and energy into public ownership to end the great privatisation rip-off and save you money on your fares and bills." This reads like the same flawed ideologue that the Conservatives had during the 80's that market forces would shape better services. It didn't help that Corbyn made a nob of himself by filming so called overcrowding on a less than half full Virgin Pendalino train that was routed from London to Newcastle outside peak hours. I was so annoyed by that; it showed Cornyn as a London-centric imbecile. When I worked in Manchester, I saw first hand how bad overcrowding was on the Manchester to Liverpool line but here was the leader totally undermining a valid point for people in the North West.

    These are just a few of the things in the manifesto which have admirable aims but read like it was created by a sixth form social justice warrior because it didn't lay out enough on how to achieve it. My personal view is that Labour were caught in a neurosis between a nod to the old militant tendency of yesteryear and the social liberals who as gray beautifully surmised still take health cover and wear an NHS badge, and don't think twice from buying from Amazon and Uber. Its not unreasonable to think this dichotomy in the party was behind its failure to layout a more detailed strategic view.

    Ultimately people in the Black country, in the North West and North East saw through much of the prevailing Labour position - that it was not really focussing sharply enough on their concerns and deserted it. Outside of the points made earlier about the damage of the influence of those social liberals in the suburbs, the Momentum agenda may also be a factor; it was noticeable the old militant figures from the last century emerged like Derek Hatton and I think this contributed to a viewpoint that the party was too ideological driven and 'Labour isn't working.'
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 24th April 2021 at 15:54.

  24. #74
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    Anyway it’s good to see that our Prime Minster was doing everything he could during this pandemic. His “let the bodies pile high” comment could be the one promise he delivered on.

    Oh of course it doesn’t matter WHO paid for his flat to be decorated as long as I wasn’t the tax payer. Bribery is only if someone you don’t like takes a large gift for favourable treatment. This is just a friend helping someone out who is down to their last few million.

    But still it’s Boris all the people attacking him are educated and are clever than him, oh look “ego, egos, egit” boris can talk Latin he must be clever.

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    Bloodbath in Hartlepool

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