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    One of my sons mentioned to his school teachers that i watch Jordan Petersons videos on YouTube. To which his teacher replied ‘oh that Canadian nazi?’ It really is shocking how the left toss around terms like ‘nazi’ and ‘alt-right’ trivialising such terms to the degree that it’s an insult to those who lived through the holocaust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    One of my sons mentioned to his school teachers that i watch Jordan Petersons videos on YouTube. To which his teacher replied ‘oh that Canadian nazi?’ It really is shocking how the left toss around terms like ‘nazi’ and ‘alt-right’ trivialising such terms to the degree that it’s an insult to those who lived through the holocaust.
    It's pathetic isn't it, especially as its little mroe than small minded insults because Peterson dismantled so many 'accepted orthodoxies' amongst the progressive liberals. The reaction of Cathy Newman to her dreadful interview tells you everything about the victim/opressor narrative that populates much of their thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    It's pathetic isn't it, especially as its little mroe than small minded insults because Peterson dismantled so many 'accepted orthodoxies' amongst the progressive liberals. The reaction of Cathy Newman to her dreadful interview tells you everything about the victim/opressor narrative that populates much of their thinking.
    The Cathy Newman ‘so what you’re saying is?’ interview?
    She was proof that the educated aren’t necessarily the intelligent. She did her best to trip him up and made herself look silly every single time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    The Cathy Newman ‘so what you’re saying is?’ interview?
    She was proof that the educated aren’t necessarily the intelligent. She did her best to trip him up and made herself look silly every single time.
    Absolutely mate. She and many others picked the wrong guy to have a pop at: someone who could calmly disassemble false narratives and sentimentalism apart and put forward reason and logic.

    However what you must understand is the likes of Newman, Whittome, Lammy, Shola Mos-Shogbamimu, Femi, Phillips etc thrive of is the oxygen from the politics of identity and division. For them anyone who offers a robust opinion that deviates from their accepted wisdom is a danger that must be confronted; at the very least this gets them in the public eye even if they lose an argument. Its what they do.

    As a successful professional with a wife with a thriving business it amuses me to see these siren voices either telling people why they cant achieve or making excuses for failure. There is a broad tent of ne’er do wells making big bucks or political capital off politics of division and thankfully its started to be exposed.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...ollapsing/amp/

    I hope Labour are eviscerated at the next election. It would be heaven on earth to see a handful of Oli’s, Toby’s and Jemima’s from Islingdon’s ‘uber cool’ clique totally dominated by a landslide of conservatives. In fact Id love to see Rimmer lose her seat as well. I never ever thought id say that but I despise what modern Labour has become. They are nothing but a fashion parade. I look forward to a manifesto centred on the importance of pronouns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Absolutely mate. She and many others picked the wrong guy to have a pop at: someone who could calmly disassemble false narratives and sentimentalism apart and put forward reason and logic.

    However what you must understand is the likes of Newman, Whittome, Lammy, Shola Mos-Shogbamimu, Femi, Phillips etc thrive of is the oxygen from the politics of identity and division. For them anyone who offers a robust opinion that deviates from their accepted wisdom is a danger that must be confronted; at the very least this gets them in the public eye even if they lose an argument. Its what they do.

    As a successful professional with a wife with a thriving business it amuses me to see these siren voices either telling people why they cant achieve or making excuses for failure. There is a broad tent of ne’er do wells making big bucks or political capital off politics of division and thankfully its started to be exposed.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...ollapsing/amp/

    I hope Labour are eviscerated at the next election. It would be heaven on earth to see a handful of Oli’s, Toby’s and Jemima’s from Islingdon’s ‘uber cool’ clique totally dominated by a landslide of conservatives. In fact Id love to see Rimmer lose her seat as well. I never ever thought id say that but I despise what modern Labour has become. They are nothing but a fashion parade. I look forward to a manifesto centred on the importance of pronouns.
    Yeh mate i agree. Until the day comes when Labour can reconnect with reality they don’t stand a chance of getting back in power.
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    The comments on this thread make me thoroughly depressed.

    I've no fondness for identity politics, but they're a tiny price to pay for not having a Tory government. A diversion, and nothing more, when it comes to day to day living.

    To paraphrase Baudelaire, the greatest trick the Tory Party even pulled was to convince working class people that they weren't an evil bunch of corrupt shysters who will always seek to f*ck-over the little guy to benefit the already wealthy.

    I despair of this country and its people. To not just fall for the Brexit con, but then double-down on it in like flagshagging cultists. Then turn their backs on the party that wants strong regulations to protect workers, the environment & consumers because 'woke'.

    Turkeys and Xmas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    The comments on this thread make me thoroughly depressed.

    I've no fondness for identity politics, but they're a tiny price to pay for not having a Tory government. A diversion, and nothing more, when it comes to day to day living.

    To paraphrase Baudelaire, the greatest trick the Tory Party even pulled was to convince working class people that they weren't an evil bunch of corrupt shysters who will always seek to f*ck-over the little guy to benefit the already wealthy.

    I despair of this country and its people. To not just fall for the Brexit con, but then double-down on it in like flagshagging cultists. Then turn their backs on the party that wants strong regulations to protect workers, the environment & consumers because 'woke'.

    Turkeys and Xmas.
    Identity politics are a cancer, mate. Bottom line, Labour have taken the working classes for granted for way too long and paid the price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Identity politics are a cancer, mate. Bottom line, Labour have taken the working classes for granted for way too long and paid the price.
    I agree; the real peculiarity is anyone thinking Labour care about the working class much at all. They are as far distanced from that as ever. It's basically a knocking shop of cosmopolitan liberals who generally have as much care or knowledge of the North West and towns like St. Helens or Wigan as a B&Q door knob.

    There is a proclivity for these types to think that they own the moral high ground; to see everything through the prism of victim and oppressor. You see it in their disgusting identity politics, you see it in them making excuses for failure and you see it in the way that anyone who disagrees with what The Guardian, New Statesman etc tell them as being called derogative terms like 'flagshaggers.' They have deeply closed minds; the obnoxious Jess Phillips springs to mind who couldn't possibly be friends with a Tory. What a lovely character.

    Like Jordan Peterson outlines these people have become like Cain. They've established their own narrative that everything in life is against them; they are the victim of an oppressor with a justified need to vengeance. Its roots are deeply enshrined in Universities, in HR and Corporate Branding and in much mainstream media. I'm sure Ibram X. Kendi, Patrisse Cullors and co are deeply grateful; they've got rich off the back of creating division and victimhood mentality in just about everything they've done. Its the oxygen that keeps them going.

    The amusing thing is the more they do it the more the red wall will crumble. Paul Embery sums so called 'flagshagging' up in a much more mature way than a playground 5 year old. Its about the community of faith, family and flag. So called out of fashion views that don't fit in with Comrade Corbyn's momentum nor Sir Keir's Human Rights solicitors. It might be sneered at by the left but those traditions have long been established in British politics; Harold MacMillan's one nation conservatism was a prime example.

    Anyone who thinks Labour will do anything fundamentally different to the Conservatives where economy is concerned is deluded. Labour are on a neurosis between those who support economic liberalism (globalisation, Europhilia and blue collar immigration) or those who are attracted to the Militant tendency; ultimately the former will win out over the latter.

    I believe in capitalism, that hard work, enterprise and risk should be rewarded but the real tragedy is that there's a party unable to challenge its excesses properly as that its more concerned with social fetishes and the latest pronoun than articulating credible policies or any sort of reconnection with many working class voters outside of trendy city suburbs.
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 14th April 2021 at 18:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    I agree; the real peculiarity is anyone thinking Labour care about the working class at all. They are as far distanced from that as ever. It's basically a knocking shop of cosmopolitan liberals who generally have as much care or knowledge of the North West and towns like St. Helens or Wigan as a B&Q door knob.

    There is a proclivity for these types to think that they own the moral high ground; to see everything through the prism of victim and oppressor. You see it in their disgusting identity politics, you see it in them making excuses for failure and you see it in the way that anyone who disagrees with what The Guardian, New Statesman etc tell them as being called derogative terms like 'flagshaggers.' They have deeply closed minds; the obnoxious Jess Phillips springs to mind who couldn't possibly be friends with a Tory. What a lovely character.

    Like Jordan Peterson outlines these people have become like Cain. They've established their own narrative that everything in life is against them; they are the victim of an oppressor with a justified need to vengeance. Its roots are deeply enshrined in Universities, in HR and Corporate Branding and in much mainstream media. I'm sure Ibram X. Kendi, Patrisse Cullors and co are deeply grateful; they've got rich off the back of creating division and victimhood mentality in just about everything they've done. Its the oxygen that keeps them going.

    The amusing thing is the more they do it the more the red wall will crumble. Paul Embery sums so called 'flagshagging' up in a much more mature way than a playground 5 year old. Its about the community of faith, family and flag. So called out of fashion views that don't fit in with Comrade Corbyn's momentum nor Sir Keir's Human Rights solicitors. It might be sneered at by the left but those traditions have long been established in British politics; Harold MacMillan's one nation conservatism was a prime example.

    Anyone who thinks Labour will do anything fundamentally different to the Conservatives where economy is concerned is deluded. Labour are on a neurosis between those who support economic liberalism (globalisation, Europhilia and blue collar immigration) or those who are attracted to the Militant tendency; ultimately the former will win out over the latter.

    I believe in capitalism, that hard work, enterprise and risk should be rewarded but the real tragedy is that there's a party unable to challenge its excesses properly as that its more concerned with social fetishes and the latest pronoun than articulating credible policies or any sort of reconnection with many working class voters outside of trendy city suburbs.
    Aye. Im not even big on a history of politics, mate. Labour do very little for the working classes. They would rather try win the votes with a promise pf throwing a man a fish instead of incentivising a man to learn how to fish for himself. They have taken the working class vote for granted for years. The ‘Vote for Labour because Thatcher closed the pits!!’ generation has gone now. I guess Labour are now waiting on the next big Tory slip up to pounce on instead of coming up with any good policies of their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Aye. Im not even big on a history of politics, mate. Labour do very little for the working classes. They would rather try win the votes with a promise pf throwing a man a fish instead of incentivising a man to learn how to fish for himself. They have taken the working class vote for granted for years. The ‘Vote for Labour because Thatcher closed the pits!!’ generation has gone now. I guess Labour are now waiting on the next big Tory slip up to pounce on instead of coming up with any good policies of their own.
    The whole Thatcher narrative is so disempowering; she's been out of power for over 31 years and people still go on about it. I hated the women and saw the devastation that Conservative government caused but there is looking back and then there is looking forwards. There's also look myopically. What for example have the good Labour councillors done for St. Helens? The town desperately needs investment and innovation but you'll hear the tired old 'Thatcher was a •••••••' type narrative from the likes of Rimmer and fat Barry during his pomp. Hartlepool voted in a Conservative mayor - look how they've progressed.
    By the way your analogy to the fish is interesting in more ways than one because there is a certain demographic that is slipping down the charts of educational achievement in UK schools in many areas akin to St Helens; its not a niche cause or social fetish so its largely ignored by the modern day Labour party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    The comments on this thread make me thoroughly depressed.

    I've no fondness for identity politics, but they're a tiny price to pay for not having a Tory government. A diversion, and nothing more, when it comes to day to day living.

    To paraphrase Baudelaire, the greatest trick the Tory Party even pulled was to convince working class people that they weren't an evil bunch of corrupt shysters who will always seek to f*ck-over the little guy to benefit the already wealthy.

    I despair of this country and its people. To not just fall for the Brexit con, but then double-down on it in like flagshagging cultists. Then turn their backs on the party that wants strong regulations to protect workers, the environment & consumers because 'woke'.

    Turkeys and Xmas.
    This is what I agree with (maybe not the 'flagshagging cultists'...). I simply don't recognise the descriptions of the Labour Party I'm reading on this thread. There's a fundamental core of decency in it far beyond identity politics. I expect there was a decent core in the Tories, but many of that ilk have been drummed out. And you don't have to be on the right to believe in hard work, aspiration and even enterprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Then turn their backs on the party that wants strong regulations to protect workers, the environment & consumers because 'woke'.
    I will play devils advocate here, as someone who was an active member of the Labour party for 20 years and who left for the very issues the likes of Embery, Glassman and co point out.

    Let's just say that Labour are the party that wants strong regulations to protect workers, the environment & consumers, and let's just say that woke issues are niche and don't effect normal peoples lives. Why then do so many Labour people (back bench MPs, Momentum types, media figures) fixate on those very woke issues that you claim are niche and a diversion? Why don't they shut their mouths and let the party concentrate 100% on economic issues, because the majority of the public do back protections for workers, more money on the NHS, more environmental protections, etc.

    If you have a set of economic ideals that the public will rally behind why aren't they voting for it? Simple reason, because they know that those economic ideas are not what it is driving the Labour party anymore. What drives a majority of Labour members (not my opinion, this is all out there in polling of members) is not economic justice but a specific kind of social justice, and what drives alot of the backbench Labour MPs (probably the lowest quality bunch in the history of the party) isn't economic justice but identity politics. They are the ones who push this out all the time when Starmer is probably wishing they'd shut up, and they are the ones who reduce the levels of support for Labour in working class communities every time they speak.

    But as I say, if those woke issues weren't of importance to normal people they would simply ignore those Labour figures and vote for economic ideals. But they don't, because these identity politics issues are very important to normal people, and they hate what Labour represents because when (as we would agree) in the middle of a pandemic the important issues are the economy, jobs, education, NHS they instead see Labour figures fixating on other things because those things are important to their (now) core voters in university towns and big cities. Lots of working class people didn't turn their backs on Labour, Labour instead turned their backs on them, over the space of 30 years or so, and those people finally had enough. Anyone can see why this has happened, and any party that cared enough to resolve it would do so pretty quickly. But it isn't happening.

    The tactic of lambasting those people as idiots and 'flagshaggers' because they fail to see the promised land of a Labour government is self-defeating, and it is a common trend in the left now to shout at people and hope they'll agree, but when they don't you shout at them louder and slag them off for not thinking the correct things. It never works. Giants of the party and benchmark figures like Benn, Foot, Shore and Castle all wanted to leave Europe in the 70s and the last Labour leader has been anti-EU all his political life. Were they all 'flagshaggers'? They all knew the reasons why some people opposed it and sought to frame Labour's offerings of left wing economics and fairness with an attempt at knowing what working class people felt about things. The modern left fails to do this time after time, because alot of them simply don't have a clue having never been working class or giving the working class a moments thought. Labour is in a lot of trouble because it knows what the problems are but it doesn't think they are worth solving, because to solve them would (in their minds) be to give in to a section of society that they now fundamentally don't like that much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    The whole Thatcher narrative is so disempowering; she's been out of power for over 31 years and people still go on about it. I hated the women and saw the devastation that Conservative government caused but there is looking back and then there is looking forwards. There's also look myopically. What for example have the good Labour councillors done for St. Helens? The town desperately needs investment and innovation but you'll hear the tired old 'Thatcher was a •••••••' type narrative from the likes of Rimmer and fat Barry during his pomp. Hartlepool voted in a Conservative mayor - look how they've progressed.
    By the way your analogy to the fish is interesting in more ways than one because there is a certain demographic that is slipping down the charts of educational achievement in UK schools in many areas akin to St Helens; its not a niche cause or social fetish so its largely ignored by the modern day Labour party.
    I was a kid in the 90’s and i always remember asking my mum who she was voting for in some upcoming election and her response was ‘labour because that cow Thatcher closed the pits!’. She couldn’t name a single policy of any of the parties but she knew she would vote Labour.
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    Fishy, Eddie, Webbo and Gray I'd just like to say thanks for your recent posts on here, I've found it really interesting reading it.

    I won't get involved in political debate on the internet as it usually turns out badly but you have all kept it really civil and given me plenty to think about and research so keep it up.

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

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    Without replying to specific points (as it'd take me to long!) I will say that the image presented by each of the three of you is not the Labour Party I see, is not representative of the Labour/leftist people I know.

    The ones I know want to make society fairer and less unequal, want address huge wealth inequality, corporate control, and tax dodging.

    I do agree that in terms of ability, the current party is lacking - but then, that applies equally to the Tory Party (Bozo, Hancock, Patel, Gove, etc). Politicians in general are in the UK are poor (I think the most able by a long chalk is Sturgeon)

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    Luther 2021.

    ‘Im gonna solve this murder. Right after me and my homie Cornpop get our fix of plantain and breadfruits!’
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Luther didn't have ANY friends, regardless of colour. His only associates were the other coppers he worked with and his strange love interest (Ruth Wilson). I wonder what 'diversity' means to some people. In my eyes diversity is a blend of cultures, not loads of cultural stereotypes all co-existing side by side. If a black person doesn't eat Caribbean food isn't that a sign of diversity, that they live in a society where they don't need to just stick to a specific cultural norm but live a varied life because of the choices and different cultures around them? Instead, our wonderful left wing diversity champions contradict everything they've claimed to believe in by telling people to actually stick to those cultural norms, be a stereotype, don't do things uncommon to people like them a generation or two ago. They're all hypocrites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Luther didn't have ANY friends, regardless of colour. His only associates were the other coppers he worked with and his strange love interest (Ruth Wilson). I wonder what 'diversity' means to some people. In my eyes diversity is a blend of cultures, not loads of cultural stereotypes all co-existing side by side. If a black person doesn't eat Caribbean food isn't that a sign of diversity, that they live in a society where they don't need to just stick to a specific cultural norm but live a varied life because of the choices and different cultures around them? Instead, our wonderful left wing diversity champions contradict everything they've claimed to believe in by telling people to actually stick to those cultural norms, be a stereotype, don't do things uncommon to people like them a generation or two ago. They're all hypocrites.
    Yep exactly. I just don’t get it. This BBC diversity chief is basically saying ‘if you don’t act this way, you ain’t really black’. Im confused. Isn’t characterising a person based on their skin colour pure racism??
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Luther 2021.

    ‘Im gonna solve this murder. Right after me and my homie Cornpop get our fix of plantain and breadfruits!’
    They best be showing him smoking a blunt and downing a bottle of rum or someones going to complain... the whole article is a joke, the whole black person eating Caribbean food is a stereotype that doesnt fit some black people, it seems that some just want to see people stay in lanes they think they belong in rather than them being their own person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    They best be showing him smoking a blunt and downing a bottle of rum or someones going to complain... the whole article is a joke, the whole black person eating Caribbean food is a stereotype that doesnt fit some black people, it seems that some just want to see people stay in lanes they think they belong in rather than them being their own person.
    Nail on head.
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    And one thing we're forgetting here is Idris Elba. This fella isn't a fool, he isn't some novice, he's a top class actor who has done The Wire and other top stuff. His Sky comedy series about his childhood in London references how African immigrants coped with life here in the 1980s, he gets it. Are we saying he would have taken the scripts for Luther and kept his mouth shut if he didn't think his character was an accurate description of a loner working in the police in 21st century London? If I'm him I'm offended by this stereotyping of what he and his character should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    And one thing we're forgetting here is Idris Elba. This fella isn't a fool, he isn't some novice, he's a top class actor who has done The Wire and other top stuff. His Sky comedy series about his childhood in London references how African immigrants coped with life here in the 1980s, he gets it. Are we saying he would have taken the scripts for Luther and kept his mouth shut if he didn't think his character was an accurate description of a loner working in the police in 21st century London? If I'm him I'm offended by this stereotyping of what he and his character should be.
    Surely he isn’t alone. There must be plenty black people who are massively offended by articles like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Luther didn't have ANY friends, regardless of colour. His only associates were the other coppers he worked with and his strange love interest (Ruth Wilson). I wonder what 'diversity' means to some people. In my eyes diversity is a blend of cultures, not loads of cultural stereotypes all co-existing side by side. If a black person doesn't eat Caribbean food isn't that a sign of diversity, that they live in a society where they don't need to just stick to a specific cultural norm but live a varied life because of the choices and different cultures around them? Instead, our wonderful left wing diversity champions contradict everything they've claimed to believe in by telling people to actually stick to those cultural norms, be a stereotype, don't do things uncommon to people like them a generation or two ago. They're all hypocrites.
    Stuff like this is a huge nonsense and Jordan Peterson has done us all a massive favour to pick it apart. Its total hogwash and I'd go one step further and call a lot of it a money making grift, there's a massive cottage industry in this type of politics at the moment and it should not go unnoticed. My personal favourite:

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/ant.../9780593110416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Without replying to specific points (as it'd take me to long!) I will say that the image presented by each of the three of you is not the Labour Party I see, is not representative of the Labour/leftist people I know.

    The ones I know want to make society fairer and less unequal, want address huge wealth inequality, corporate control, and tax dodging.

    I do agree that in terms of ability, the current party is lacking - but then, that applies equally to the Tory Party (Bozo, Hancock, Patel, Gove, etc). Politicians in general are in the UK are poor (I think the most able by a long chalk is Sturgeon)
    I think those aims laudable but they are not being articulated with enough priority or clarity. One of the best speakers I heard on the subject of tax avoidance was Margaret Hodge a few years ago who gave a set of auditors a particularly torrid time on the type of work they were doing to help big companies escape paying their dues. Fair play to her; she pressed the point with brevity.

    I also agree there is a need to redress the wealth inequality and look at distribution of it, but was'nt it the same Labour party who in the Blair years were 'inetnsely relaxed with people getting filthy rich?' Isn't it the same party who Liz Kendall belongs to who only yesterday was trampling all over the dignity or Morrison's workers to make a clumsy point on social care.

    I'm sure you've Labour friends affiliates who espouse the values you hold important to you, but I'd bet my bottom dollar they are some way different to the Labour voices in too many city suburbs (particularly London). As I said earlier there's also a neurosis between social 'progressives' (who I have absolutely no time for) and Momentum esque Miltant types who will struggle to get buy in from enough of the electorate to be anything other than fringe activists.

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