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Thread: Where Do You Play Welsby?

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    Got A Replica Shirt Cunningham's Avatar
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    Default Where Do You Play Welsby?

    No I canít get over the end to the Grand Final either.

    But it does throw up an interesting dilemma. Assuming Percival is fit where does Welsby fit in?

    And donít start shuffling the half-backs thatís not going to happen.

    And yes I know theyíll be injuries so is Welsby given the 14 shirt as a nailed on bench spot.

    Now we donít see the players in training so only have a partial picture but itís not an easy one.

    Or should Somebody in the backs be phoning their agents?
    Last edited by Cunningham; 10th February 2021 at 18:16. Reason: Typo

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    Welsby, Dodd and Simm are backing up the 1st choice backline. As for a bench spot I think it depends on whether Woolf wants an interchange hooker option there, if so it could be Dodd gets the bench spot maybe with Fages moving to hooker mid game. Iíd have been tempted to try and find Welsby a loan move for this season with some decent youngsters in reserve in case of injuries. Could also do with working out whether Welsbyís best position will be 1 or 6 going forwards.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunningham View Post
    No I can’t get over the end to the Grand Final either.

    But it does throw up an interesting dilemma. Assuming Percival is fit where does Welsby fit in?

    And don’t start shuffling the half-backs that’s not going to happen.

    And yes I know they’ll be injuries so is Welsby given the 14 shirt as a nailed on bench spot.

    Now we don’t see the players in training so only have a partial picture but it’s not an easy one.

    Or should Somebody in the backs be phoning their agents?
    Welsby has the 18 shirt, personally i am not sure where Welsby fits in other than being the next man in if any of the backs, other than the halves, get injured, unless we go with a bit of a rotation policy to try and protect a few injury prone players like Percy. I dont see him in the halves ahead of Dodd, maybe he would be pushing Kev or Coote for a place later on in the season if he continues the development he had towards the back end of last season.

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    I accept there will be a lot of sentiment in thoughts of a starting position for Welsby due to his heroics in the Grand Final and his guaranteed place in Saints folklore.
    However, the reality is that if Percy had been fit he wouldn't have been in the 17. I don't think we have seen yet whether he has the skill set in other positions to warrant a utility spot on the bench, and that would depend on whether Woolfe wants 4 forwards on the bench.
    One thing in Jack's favour is that Woolfe seems to like him and stuck with him last season when many were questioning why he was given a spot in front of other promising youngsters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Welsby, Dodd and Simm are backing up the 1st choice backline. As for a bench spot I think it depends on whether Woolf wants an interchange hooker option there, if so it could be Dodd gets the bench spot maybe with Fages moving to hooker mid game. Iíd have been tempted to try and find Welsby a loan move for this season with some decent youngsters in reserve in case of injuries. Could also do with working out whether Welsbyís best position will be 1 or 6 going forwards.
    A Loan move is a good shout. Regular game time at 1 or 6 in the championship.
    Personally I think his lack of pace is a big issue in terms of development at 1 or 6.

    He strikes me as a 13 but today's 13 is all about a third mini prop which he is not.

    That's not to say with 6 again et al that the role of the 13 can't become more of the
    Sculthorpe , Arkwright, Cooper, Hammond free role again.

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    There will always be an injury to cover and his versatility will stand him in good stead in that respect. I can't yet see his long term position but we have a number of players the wrong side of 30 in positions he can develop in

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Mander View Post
    A Loan move is a good shout. Regular game time at 1 or 6 in the championship.
    Personally I think his lack of pace is a big issue in terms of development at 1 or 6.

    He strikes me as a 13 but today's 13 is all about a third mini prop which he is not.

    That's not to say with 6 again et al that the role of the 13 can't become more of the
    Sculthorpe , Arkwright, Cooper, Hammond free role again.
    Why would you think heís slow? Heís not lightning quick but Iíd back him in a foot race against Coote, Fages and Lomax.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Why would you think he’s slow? He’s not lightning quick but I’d back him in a foot race against Coote, Fages and Lomax.
    I saw him go 90 yards in the reserves once. Nobody made a yard on him. He's perhaps a bit slow over the first 10 yards

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    I don't see the point in loaning him out now. He's basically the 1st choice when have injuries in the backs, as he can play pretty much every position from 1-7.

    Last season will have done him the world of good and he had shown he is a fast developer. Compare that game away at Cas pre lockdown to his performances in the Play Offs at Centre.

    I think we'll see him play across the backline again this year depending on injuries and with the volume of games we have he'll get his chances and we'll rotate from time to time.

    His time will come in future. Lomax and Coote won't be around forever so he'll slowly transition into the Full back or halves position I'd imagine, but I wouldn't rule out Centre either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Why would you think he’s slow? He’s not lightning quick but I’d back him in a foot race against Coote, Fages and Lomax.
    Welsby has a long stride with a leaning body angle which gives the illusion of not being a speed merchant when he actually covers a lot of ground quickly, reminds me a bit like Wello who reads the game a second quicker than most players and finds space and a gap.

    Welsby, Simm and Dodd are on record in saying they will stay patient for last season and this season and will grab any opportunities, the biggest problem is some of the saints fans will start pre judging their capability when they get the odd game and don't come up to scratch in just one or two games. Next year we could see a couple of players in our back line losing their performance or leaving the club, the likes of Welsby, Simm and Dodd will step up into the necessary transition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    I don't see the point in loaning him out now. He's basically the 1st choice when have injuries in the backs, as he can play pretty much every position from 1-7.

    Last season will have done him the world of good and he had shown he is a fast developer. Compare that game away at Cas pre lockdown to his performances in the Play Offs at Centre.

    I think we'll see him play across the backline again this year depending on injuries and with the volume of games we have he'll get his chances and we'll rotate from time to time.

    His time will come in future. Lomax and Coote won't be around forever so he'll slowly transition into the Full back or halves position I'd imagine, but I wouldn't rule out Centre either.
    My point in loaning him out would be more to find his best position and get him game time. Also if he is 1st choice reserve it cuts down on game time for Dodd and Simm. Itís just going to be difficult to manage the development of our young players with limited reserve games.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Will replace Kevin when he moves back. For now he will provide cover across the back line. Realistically given Percy injury woes, we will likely need that cover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    Welsby, Dodd and Simm are backing up the 1st choice backline. As for a bench spot I think it depends on whether Woolf wants an interchange hooker option there, if so it could be Dodd gets the bench spot maybe with Fages moving to hooker mid game. I’d have been tempted to try and find Welsby a loan move for this season with some decent youngsters in reserve in case of injuries. Could also do with working out whether Welsby’s best position will be 1 or 6 going forwards.
    As you have said he will be a first choice reserve for the backline, so why would you loan him out for a season. Look at the injuries Liverpool suffered this season. I don't know the loan rules, but if you are able to loan on a short term basis or have a recall clause, then it makes sense. For me a season long one is a non starter. If he does go on loan he is probably worth a place at the likes of Wakey or Salford etc.

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    I'd say Elton is the number one backup in every position from 1-6. He'll probably play most games next season, either from the bench or as first replacement for the backs.

    The big question next season is whether Dodd replaces Theo Fages at 7 next season. He could and perhaps should, I thought that was the one position that needs to be improved. Plenty of gametime for Theo still, I'd have him as backup to Roby and another rotation option in the backs.

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    Sending Welsby on loan would be the worst idea the club would have had since extending Cunningham’s contract.

    One of Welsby and Dodd, most likely Welsby given his versatility, should be on the bench this year.
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    Welsby is an excellent option to cover 1-5 at the moment. However I think Simm is a better centre though and if either half-back gets injured then Dodd should be played. I know the GF try gets us all nostalgic but it's a new season now and that one try shouldn't muddy the water in terms of selection for this season. Welsby is in a very strong battle just to make the 17 at the minute; there's probably 6 realistically fighting for 2 bench spots. LMS, Amor, Smith, Eaves, Dodd and Welsby. (I'm assuming Matautia and one of Paasi or Lees will be on the bench more often than not).

    It won't do him any harm covering various positions for now. Let's not forget he's just 19; to put some context on it James Roby played on the wing at the same age in a game away at London, as well as playing 6,7,9 and 13 during that same 2005 season. So there's no rush to move someone aside for Welsby, nor should there be any panic about him not finding his long-term position yet.

    Coote, Naiqama and Fages are all OOC this year. I'm sure Welsby, Simm and Dodd will be looking on with interest at those negotiations.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Welsby is an excellent option to cover 1-5 at the moment. However I think Simm is a better centre though and if either half-back gets injured then Dodd should be played. I know the GF try gets us all nostalgic but it's a new season now and that one try shouldn't muddy the water in terms of selection for this season. Welsby is in a very strong battle just to make the 17 at the minute; there's probably 6 realistically fighting for 2 bench spots. LMS, Amor, Smith, Eaves, Dodd and Welsby. (I'm assuming Matautia and one of Paasi or Lees will be on the bench more often than not).

    It won't do him any harm covering various positions for now. Let's not forget he's just 19; to put some context on it James Roby played on the wing at the same age in a game away at London, as well as playing 6,7,9 and 13 during that same 2005 season. So there's no rush to move someone aside for Welsby, nor should there be any panic about him not finding his long-term position yet.

    Coote, Naiqama and Fages are all OOC this year. I'm sure Welsby, Simm and Dodd will be looking on with interest at those negotiations.......
    Agreed. Heís good as cover at the moment but the question about his eventual position remains open. I donít see him taking over from Naiqama as Simm is tailor made for that role. I donít see him getting the next available spot in the halves as Dodd will likely get that. Some have suggested 13 but I donít see him having the size or physicality for that.

    Am I right in thinking that Cooteís contract is up at the end of this year? Thatís his best opportunity, Iíd say, assuming we canít persuade Coote to do another year or two.

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    If we fast forward to the 2022 season its likely Coote and Naiqama will return back to OZ. Simm would be ideal replacement for the right centre spot but we would need to get the Dodd/Welsby half back partnership running. The problem with Welsby is that he hasn't played all that many games at 6. So maybe we could move Lomax to full back for his last couple of years to create that pivotable triangle at 1, 6 and 7.

    Fages should be looking at the no 9 role with Eaves next year because Dodd should be 1st choice no 7 by then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    If we fast forward to the 2022 season its likely Coote and Naiqama will return back to OZ. Simm would be ideal replacement for the right centre spot but we would need to get the Dodd/Welsby half back partnership running. The problem with Welsby is that he hasn't played all that many games at 6. So maybe we could move Lomax to full back for his last couple of years to create that pivotable triangle at 1, 6 and 7.

    Fages should be looking at the no 9 role with Eaves next year because Dodd should be 1st choice no 7 by then.

    I think, given Lomax's issues with injuries, fullback might stretch his physicality too much at this stage of his career. I also think he'd be the better partner/mentor for Dodd, who'd still be a rookie in 2022. Welsby put in some very accomplished performances in the last few games of 2020, and he obviously has ability (also seems have shaken off that bit of timidness), but I've yet to see him show that he's got potential to be great in a particular position.

    For the sake of his career progression, he needs to play in one position regularly. But, with his utility value to the team, and [currently] better players already in the positions he's capable of playing in, that's going to be a tough ask.

    All parties are in a bit of a limbo. Ideally, he'd go on loan for a season and play one position week in, week out to build his experience there - whether that's FB, centre or 6. But he's become integral to the squad with his flexibility helping us, and seems to have developed past that loan stage anyway.

    This is where a full reserve programme helps massively; we could give him an extended run at whichever position we see his medium-term future at, then rotate him into the 1st team in that position to rest the established player or cover for injury there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I think, given Lomax's issues with injuries, fullback might stretch his physicality too much at this stage of his career. I also think he'd be the better partner/mentor for Dodd, who'd still be a rookie in 2022. Welsby put in some very accomplished performances in the last few games of 2020, and he obviously has ability (also seems have shaken off that bit of timidness), but I've yet to see him show that he's got potential to be great in a particular position.

    For the sake of his career progression, he needs to play in one position regularly. But, with his utility value to the team, and [currently] better players already in the positions he's capable of playing in, that's going to be a tough ask.

    All parties are in a bit of a limbo. Ideally, he'd go on loan for a season and play one position week in, week out to build his experience there - whether that's FB, centre or 6. But he's become integral to the squad with his flexibility helping us, and seems to have developed past that loan stage anyway.

    This is where a full reserve programme helps massively; we could give him an extended run at whichever position we see his medium-term future at, then rotate him into the 1st team in that position to rest the established player or cover for injury there.
    Explain Lomax's injury issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    Explain Lomax's injury issues.



    Now I'm doubting myself.

    Hasn't he got a susceptibility to knee/leg injuries/niggles? And the fullback position requires more lateral movement that stand off.

    Or have I dreamt all this?
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    I think we can become a bit too quick to throw a label on a player with regards to position. Let him develop physically and ability wise then see where he lands.

    There's countless players that have developed a better all round game from experiencing playing in a multitude of positions in the first team, before settling into a position later in their career. Lomax, covering 1-7 for us, similarly Leon Pryce for Bradford.

    I wouldn't be too concerned about him becoming a "specialist" at this stage of his career, being a "generalist" will help him accrue more appearances and with that more experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post


    Now I'm doubting myself.

    Hasn't he got a susceptibility to knee/leg injuries/niggles? And the fullback position requires more lateral movement that stand off.

    Or have I dreamt all this?
    2 ACL injuries, last one in 2015, he played at fullback for pretty much all of 16, most of 17 and a few games in 18. I dont think there is much difference between the lateral movement needed when in attack and when defending, if anything being tackled round his legs may put more pressure on his knee than when moving laterally in defence, i dont think his knee is much of a concern, given that he has played 5 seasons with no issues.

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    I think we have to concentrate on having another winning season by playing the best performing player in position without too much consideration for the future. I can’t see any point in jeopardising success in 2021 by giving younger players an opportunity over better performers other than because of injury or managed rotation.

    If Welsby, or any other of the “back-up” squad members, gets an opportunity and proves himself better than the previous incumbent then they retain that spot. Otherwise they have to be patient and continue to learn within the training environment at Saints, a major reason why I would also not be looking to place any one of the first rank of understudies on loan. I also doubt the extent to which you can adequately measure a player’s potential at another club that probably adopts a different structure and with a less capable squad of players. After all, it doesn’t seem that their spells at Leigh did much to cement Richardson and Ashworth positions at Saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    If we fast forward to the 2022 season its likely Coote and Naiqama will return back to OZ. Simm would be ideal replacement for the right centre spot but we would need to get the Dodd/Welsby half back partnership running. The problem with Welsby is that he hasn't played all that many games at 6. So maybe we could move Lomax to full back for his last couple of years to create that pivotable triangle at 1, 6 and 7.

    Fages should be looking at the no 9 role with Eaves next year because Dodd should be 1st choice no 7 by then.
    I don’t watch the Academy on a regular basis and have probably seen most of Simm’s appearances since he come on the scene, either in person or on the TV in 2020 and I don’t doubt he has some talent but to go straight into a starting position next year, replacing Naiqama? I’m not sure about that. I like Naiqama, even though he wasn’t as good in 2020 as he was in 2019 but that’s a hell of a change to be making.
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