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Thread: Elstone

  1. #26
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    I don't think there is a single human being alive that can make RL more or less popular than what it is.

    I've been waiting 30 years for this "transformative" progress to occur.

    It is what it is, except now it's much worse.

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    It’s funny, that no matter which person is in charge of the administration of the game, there’s always little progress.

    Makes me wonder if they’re being handicapped by other forces who have their own interests at heart.

    Disclaimer: I have no sympathy or support for wood, Elstone et al. Just wondering why everyone that comes in seems to fail.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Agree with the above two posts. The sport is what it is and can only be made 10-15% better or worse by the person in charge imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    When Elstone was announced I was quite happy, mainly because I had never heard of him and he was coming from a much more professionally managed sport. Once he was in position he was the master of sound bites. I have never known an executive that comes across as such a lightweight as he does. There is never any substance nor depth to any of his interviews. Some of his decisions on the structure and changes in the game have have been a farce. Although the owners must bear some responsibility for that, Elstone doesn't appear to have provided much in the way of leadership. I don't know where we go from here but I hope we get someone with a better understanding of the game and with the ability to understand and connect with fans.
    The owners, ours included, must bear just about all the responsibiity, it was their decision to form a separate Super league entity apart from the full Rugby League organisation and appoint Eltsone, it might still work but sadly the pulling power of the Sport just isn't there anymore, all the media is Southern based and football orientated so the majority of young people are being brainwashed into believing Football is the be all and end all. The talk a while ago of somehow involving Eddie Hearn and his organisation is just as bad, I can't see his type of salesmanship, endless hype, fake feuding between boxers would go down well with the older rugby league fan, and the recent revelations of his relations with dubious characters is certainly something we don't want, we've already had a taint of it, just ask Widnes fans what they thought of Stephen Vaughan

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    Quote Originally Posted by machoTit View Post
    I don't think there is a single human being alive that can make RL more or less popular than what it is.

    I've been waiting 30 years for this "transformative" progress to occur.

    It is what it is, except now it's much worse.
    Got to agree with that, our image profile as a "business sport" is pretty much rock bottom now and the gap between us and Rugby Union for generating money and attracting sponsors is far to wide. It would need the likes of Union and Football to overprice itself to make sponsors look for value for money in other sports.
    We are also losing out to the attraction of game play, Union have speeded things up and in Football we are seeing the lower teams a bit more competitive agaimst the big spending teams. Our new SKY deal could be interesting, would it be reflective of the state of our game.

    What does annoy me whenI see Union at times, the number of ex Wigoon Players having a big influence on their game when instead we recruit ex soccer people who don't understand the fabric of our game.

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    Taking on board your point regarding Hearn, although Vaughan was very different and we know why. What I would do is ask the Done organisation to become heavily involved. It’s a clever brand and has northern roots, why be ashamed? I was heavily involved in a cup competition of the same northern branding model, and it worked well for clubs and fans.

    Going back to the RFL as it is with Rimmer at the head is not the answer. I personally would throw it all up in the air now and force back framing for the future. You have the stadium, and the youth structure or you drop down and give them two seasons to comply. If they go back to the RFL your looking at one league of 24 and a part time sport. To see how far it can fall look at Oldham, and their OWNER is happy as a pig in muck, thousands of fans disappeared, no stadium, but enough central funding to make it a nice little enterprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    Taking on board your point regarding Hearn, although Vaughan was very different and we know why. What I would do is ask the Done organisation to become heavily involved. It’s a clever brand and has northern roots, why be ashamed? I was heavily involved in a cup competition of the same northern branding model, and it worked well for clubs and fans.

    Going back to the RFL as it is with Rimmer at the head is not the answer. I personally would throw it all up in the air now and force back framing for the future. You have the stadium, and the youth structure or you drop down and give them two seasons to comply. If they go back to the RFL your looking at one league of 24 and a part time sport. To see how far it can fall look at Oldham, and their OWNER is happy as a pig in muck, thousands of fans disappeared, no stadium, but enough central funding to make it a nice little enterprise.
    Agree completely about Done group, they have now rescued both the league and cup competitions, by the way they are big Tory party donors which might not go down too well with some speccies, they have however remained faithfull to their northern roots but it looks like Betting sponsorship will soon go the way of tobacco advertising, an influential cross party group have recommended all betting logos and advertising to be banned with it being cross party, there must be a good chance it will eventually happen. The point about basically going for broke and insisting upon framing for the future is exactly right, every club should have a modern stadium even if it's only a small one, if some clubs fall by the wayside tough, if if means a couple of clubs less, have another cup competition, don't make the Grand Final The only thing worth fighting for

  8. #33
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    Elstone was essentially a well paid puppet for the Super League chairmen, ours included, and while that governance model continues, it makes little sense finding a replacement when they’re likely to be paid approximately £400k pa to be pulled around by the likes of Lenegan, Moran, McManus and Pearson pushing in one direction and the blokes at Wakefield, Cas and Salford pulling another way.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post

    We simply cant return to a beer and sandwiches and some sort of shitty Labour club way of running the sport. .
    Did Elstone used to come back off his Blackpool or Rhyl holiday to empty the bandit.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrass View Post
    Did Elstone used to come back off his Blackpool or Rhyl holiday to empty the bandit.
    Reminds me of the story about a club having an emergency general meeting and the chairman telling the members, the bad news is that were are on the brink of going bust but there is good news, the steward has offered to give us a short term loan to tide us over

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    Eddie Hearn still interested ��

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGSaint View Post
    Eddie Hearn still interested ��
    He told•the FT:•“[They said:] ‘Would you come in, do what you’ve done for boxing and darts?’ We can, but we have to own it all. ‘Ooh, f**ing hell, we can’t do that.’ I said, so then we’re not interested.

    ‘But can’t you come in and promote the Challenge Cup?’ F* no. Either we rip up the script and we do it our way, or we don’t bother. Cos it’s f*ed, rugby league. Beyond f**ed.”


    Seems a bit harsh on the face of it. But when you read it again and process what hes saying, he is basically echoing what alot of fans are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGSaint View Post
    Eddie Hearn still interested ��
    The Eddie Hearn facelift is what we went through between 1997 and about 2003. Fireworks, dancing girls, OTT announcers. We have been there, what we need is clear leadership and that comes from clear ownership.

    I know that this opinion won't do over well with some people but RL is a victim of wacky entitled political views common in the world today. People who don't contribute make a lot of noise and want to have influence, people who contribute the most want to run everything and look after their own interests. A single leader is constantly criticised because everyone thinks that people is wrong, however everyone has a different reason why they are wrong, too extreme/not extreme enough. We are run like a commune or a carnival rather than a professional business.

    Rugby League needs an Emperor who will take us in a singular direction, a lot of us won't like or agree with this person but at least we will be going somewhere.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    He told•the FT:•“[They said:] ‘Would you come in, do what you’ve done for boxing and darts?’ We can, but we have to own it all. ‘Ooh, f**ing hell, we can’t do that.’ I said, so then we’re not interested.

    ‘But can’t you come in and promote the Challenge Cup?’ F* no. Either we rip up the script and we do it our way, or we don’t bother. Cos it’s f*ed, rugby league. Beyond f**ed.”


    Seems a bit harsh on the face of it. But when you read it again and process what hes saying, he is basically echoing what alot of fans are saying.
    Why is it harsh? Rightly or wrongly it's the truth and nothing more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    The Eddie Hearn facelift is what we went through between 1997 and about 2003. Fireworks, dancing girls, OTT announcers. We have been there, what we need is clear leadership and that comes from clear ownership.

    I know that this opinion won't do over well with some people but RL is a victim of wacky entitled political views common in the world today. People who don't contribute make a lot of noise and want to have influence, people who contribute the most want to run everything and look after their own interests. A single leader is constantly criticised because everyone thinks that people is wrong, however everyone has a different reason why they are wrong, too extreme/not extreme enough. We are run like a commune or a carnival rather than a professional business.

    Rugby League needs an Emperor who will take us in a singular direction, a lot of us won't like or agree with this person but at least we will be going somewhere.
    Very good post.

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    What British Rugby League needs is a stronger leader and a lot of money. The idea of the NRL buying the competition has grounds, they have experience of the sport and have made a commercial success of it in Australia. I can remember times over the last 30 years where there have been headlines about Union winning the code war there and how League was dead. Then we somehow arrive in 2020 with most declaring Union dead and buried and League the winner. But would they be able to translate that success over here to a less receptive audience with the omnipresent giant that is Premier League football and an already saturated sporting market? Would they also have the money to invest? The sport needs money not just for marketing and promotion, but to attract talent. One of the main reasons for decline is that we're not seeing high quality players or coaches over here, because we can't attract them in sufficient numbers. The standard of the competition is dragged down by some frankly shocking sides, caused by the ridiculously low salary cap.

    They need to ensure that any owner who wants to invest in the sport can do. Exemptions for youth players and stars should be extended and they should insist on the same minimum standards for clubs that ruled Toronto out. Would Salford, Wakefield, Hull KR etc be able to form a sensible 5 year business plan? Would they be able to evidence what they contribute to the competition? No, of course they wouldn't, yet they're still allowed to vote on all the major issues.

    The responses on this thread are why the sport doesn't grow. Those saying it's impossible or can only attract 10% more? Other sports improve and grow, but we can't? Those attitudes are reflected across the competition in board rooms where owners look for self preservation and self interest only, completely neglecting the fact that they're slowly killing themselves. It could be successful, we could have some big city teams attracting 10,000+ (Toronto did it in 3 years). If I had the money I'd leave Super League out of it to fester in it's own shortsightedness. Link up with the NRL and get a North American league going. Rugby will explode over the next 20 years at some point, but disappointingly it's going to be Union. The pro competition in America will be a success and before you know it they'll have professional leagues globally. We'll be competing with Khabbadi for a 1 hour slot once weekly on Channel 4 in front of 1,500 in ten years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    The Eddie Hearn facelift is what we went through between 1997 and about 2003. Fireworks, dancing girls, OTT announcers. We have been there, what we need is clear leadership and that comes from clear ownership.

    I know that this opinion won't do over well with some people but RL is a victim of wacky entitled political views common in the world today. People who don't contribute make a lot of noise and want to have influence, people who contribute the most want to run everything and look after their own interests. A single leader is constantly criticised because everyone thinks that people is wrong, however everyone has a different reason why they are wrong, too extreme/not extreme enough. We are run like a commune or a carnival rather than a professional business.

    Rugby League needs an Emperor who will take us in a singular direction, a lot of us won't like or agree with this person but at least we will be going somewhere.
    Brilliant point. We've been there, done it and to an extent still have it with the likes of Wells shouting about how amazing everything is at half time, Baz and Tez going on about people being smashed and bashed, silly Try music and the desire to trial yearly gimmicks like ref-cam, 'the decision is' and all that nonsense. I'm not sure Hearns brings much to the table other than more of the same. It may work for a few thousand people wanting a •••• up to watch generally overweight blokes throw darts but something a damn sight more intelligent and subtle is needed to get people supporting our game and to attract the right commercial partners.

    The loud, brash presentation just has'nt worked because the fundamentals of managing a successful sport have been forgotten: a stable competition structure where decisions made as to its future feel fair, transparent and credible. The 'issues in the game' thread outline peoples frustration with framing the future and licencing laws seemingly being applied at discretion, the general feel that there isn't really a business case to accompany competition changes other than 'SKY asked for summut different' and the lack of accountability when things have gone wrong.

    You can scream and shout, dress something up or throw a load of gold dust over something but if its based on a false premise then the rest can be forgotten about and in may cases this is the case for rugby league. The sport pretends its a pioneering sport but it isn't. Its just desperate and willing to do anything for anyone for a bit of short term gratification.

    I'd despair if things go back to how they were and nor should they be allowed to. A condition of any sort of rapprochement should be Rimmer is a gonner. He offers nothing, has little by way of credentials and his appointment ranked of nepotism in the first place. I'd disagree that we need a dictator as it just isn't self sustaining, what we need are the various bodies being reorganised such there isn't the same conflicts of interest and lack of accountability that there is and more direct representation for the fans to have some say in their sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Why is it harsh? Rightly or wrongly it's the truth and nothing more.
    I agree its the truth. It would only seem harsh if you glanced over it or was overly protective of the sport.


    Do I think Eddie Hearn is THE answer to all of RL's problems?

    Not entirely but I wouldnt write him off just yet.

    As others have pointed out, we've done the fire works and cheap tricks. It doesnt necessarily add anything to the game.

    But I think he is a capable businessman who ultimately would want to take the game to the next level because at the end of the day, its about Money and he isnt gonna jump into the RL world if he doesnt think he can make money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    I agree its the truth. It would only seem harsh if you glanced over it or was overly protective of the sport.


    Do I think Eddie Hearn is THE answer to all of RL's problems?

    Not entirely but I wouldnt write him off just yet.

    As others have pointed out, we've done the fire works and cheap tricks. It doesnt necessarily add anything to the game.

    But I think he is a capable businessman who ultimately would want to take the game to the next level because at the end of the day, its about Money and he isnt gonna jump into the RL world if he doesnt think he can make money.
    Lord Hanson made a ton of money taking over many industries through the 80's but I'm not sure many of those industries were better off as a result. The key question here would be how and for who.

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    If Hearns thinks RL is a mess, fair enough. But I'd like to know what his knowledge of the game is. Saying something is a mess is one thing, but knowing why and knowing how to improve it whilst staying true to the culture and traditions of the game is another thing.

    He's done well with other sports but they are mainly ones involving individuals and set piece events. People follow for the occasion rather than love of a team or some tribal connection. How many who attend the World Darts would want to do it every fortnight? And would people who attend big boxing events want to do that every other week? As big events he does well, but there is no real concept of history, tradition, the unique nature of different clubs, etc. All the darts players are now treated the same, all events (world darts, darts PL etc) have the same make-up and can be stuck in any arena and look the same because they're not dealing with unique backgrounds, differences in clubs, differences in fanbases in different towns etc. It's all glitzy, but very generic, and appealing to people that want to watch darts for one night a year is different to dealing with thousands of people who want to watch their club every week, and do so for very different reasons to the ones people have for going to the darts or a big boxing card as a big night out or a one-off event.

    As I've said before, the amount of people who watch darts these days is a fraction of those who watched it in the 80s and 90s, and the same can be said of boxing. Ask the average person to name three darts players now and I reckon alot would struggle, and the same for naming any British boxers outside of Joshua and Fury. Compare to how many would have known Bruno, Benn, Eubank, Watson, McGuigan, Lewis etc. So, money for darts players and boxers is far higher and they're doing great, but behind the flashing lights and the 2,000 in Ally Pally or Wembley Arena has he made those sports bigger? Has he made them more popular? Short answer, not in any way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    I agree its the truth. It would only seem harsh if you glanced over it or was overly protective of the sport.


    Do I think Eddie Hearn is THE answer to all of RL's problems?

    Not entirely but I wouldnt write him off just yet.

    As others have pointed out, we've done the fire works and cheap tricks. It doesnt necessarily add anything to the game.

    But I think he is a capable businessman who ultimately would want to take the game to the next level because at the end of the day, its about Money and he isnt gonna jump into the RL world if he doesnt think he can make money.

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    Rugby League has always been a family sport, I like watching boxing occassionally, but Hearn promotes at least three alleged world champions in the surreal world of multi champions in one weight, whose affairs are managed by according to Interpol, the Spanish Police and the Irish Police, one of the biggest gangsters in Europe, do we really want to become involved with a man like that, he might have all the showbiz hype, the fireworks the ring walks, but we should certainly not allow him to take total control of the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woolyback View Post
    Rugby League has always been a family sport, I like watching boxing occassionally, but Hearn promotes at least three alleged world champions in the surreal world of multi champions in one weight, whose affairs are managed by according to Interpol, the Spanish Police and the Irish Police, one of the biggest gangsters in Europe, do we really want to become involved with a man like that, he might have all the showbiz hype, the fireworks the ring walks, but we should certainly not allow him to take total control of the game
    It would be a totally different environment for Hearn to be in regarding RL.

    He may have someone in mind to run it for him on his behalf?

    If what you are saying is true about his shadyness then I would agree that it might be best to not get involved.

    This is all speculation and we could talk about it till we are blue in the face. But I suspect we both want what is best for our sport at the end of the day.


    I just hope that the Club owners next appointment is the right man/woman for the job.

    We need leadership.
    We need a period of stability (regarding rules, league structures)
    We need better sponsorship deals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    I agree its the truth. It would only seem harsh if you glanced over it or was overly protective of the sport.


    Do I think Eddie Hearn is THE answer to all of RL's problems?

    Not entirely but I wouldnt write him off just yet.

    As others have pointed out, we've done the fire works and cheap tricks. It doesnt necessarily add anything to the game.

    But I think he is a capable businessman who ultimately would want to take the game to the next level because at the end of the day, its about Money and he isnt gonna jump into the RL world if he doesnt think he can make money.
    Also worth pointing out that, in a world where social media matters, Eddie Hearn has almost 100,000 more Twitter followers than every super league club combined. Hearn might not be the magical fix for the sport but letting him try is surely better than continuing down this drawn out death march we’re in now.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    If Hearns thinks RL is a mess, fair enough. But I'd like to know what his knowledge of the game is. Saying something is a mess is one thing, but knowing why and knowing how to improve it whilst staying true to the culture and traditions of the game is another thing.

    He's done well with other sports but they are mainly ones involving individuals and set piece events. People follow for the occasion rather than love of a team or some tribal connection. How many who attend the World Darts would want to do it every fortnight? And would people who attend big boxing events want to do that every other week? As big events he does well, but there is no real concept of history, tradition, the unique nature of different clubs, etc. All the darts players are now treated the same, all events (world darts, darts PL etc) have the same make-up and can be stuck in any arena and look the same because they're not dealing with unique backgrounds, differences in clubs, differences in fanbases in different towns etc. It's all glitzy, but very generic, and appealing to people that want to watch darts for one night a year is different to dealing with thousands of people who want to watch their club every week, and do so for very different reasons to the ones people have for going to the darts or a big boxing card as a big night out or a one-off event.

    As I've said before, the amount of people who watch darts these days is a fraction of those who watched it in the 80s and 90s, and the same can be said of boxing. Ask the average person to name three darts players now and I reckon alot would struggle, and the same for naming any British boxers outside of Joshua and Fury. Compare to how many would have known Bruno, Benn, Eubank, Watson, McGuigan, Lewis etc. So, money for darts players and boxers is far higher and they're doing great, but behind the flashing lights and the 2,000 in Ally Pally or Wembley Arena has he made those sports bigger? Has he made them more popular? Short answer, not in any way.
    Bang on. Im struggling with the enchantment for Hearn. A couple of thousand ••••ed whoppers chanting Oh Michael van Gerwen to the White Stripes or grown men dressed as Super Mario is hardly Saatchi and Saatchi. He just capitalised on a sport run even worse than RL and stuck in 1980 and advertised a booze up at the Ally Pally. Massive.

    Instead of hoping wide boys and geezers get involved the sport like Hearn, RL needs to attract a much better calibre of individual to the sport than Elstone, Rimmer and Wood and get a better organisation structure in place to allow better, transparent decision making without conflicts of interest.

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