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Thread: Issues in the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    NFL is one of the reasons I stopped paying for Sky Sports along with various other rubbish from over the pond both sporting and political.
    Its the one sport i truly hate, run one play, right we have to wait 30 seconds for the fat lump sumo wrestlers who just stand there to move up the pitch, all whilst wearing body armour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    NFL is one of the reasons I stopped paying for Sky Sports along with various other rubbish from over the pond both sporting and political.
    What's wrong with you. You can't sit down and watch for 4 hours when the ball is in play for a whole 16 mins; or as in one recent Super Bowl 12 mins. Don't forget that at HT you get to hear someone you have probably never heard of get to sing. Even RU has the ball in play longer than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    I dont think a salary cap of around £3million is unreasonable or unmanageable, after all that's what it would roughly be if it would have followed the rate of inflation since the salary cap came in. Personally, i think an increase to around that figure, plus a bigger rebate for producing your own players through your academy systems is the way to go, it rewards those clubs who put time and effort in to their systems and gives them greater financial flexibility to retain them.
    Send this post to SL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Falling numbers for CC rounds and final is a big issue IMO. Something I don't really understand as the mood on here is that the CC should stay and is in need of some sort of boost. I'm guessing that is the general feeling across the games fan base? It's certainly something for the open letter.
    I like your idea of the donation and would be happy to cover that, but I stand by what I say. Many would moan about it being unfair, particularly if they're buying multiple tickets for a family group for one of the weaker sides. That £10 becomes £40 or £50.
    I am a season ticket holder. I do attend CC rounds involving Saints, and a group of us go to the final every year, so I guess I'm not the problem here?

    Imho MW is what kills the CC.

    Taking your Saints hat off and adopting any SL club fan mentality for a moment.

    Why pay extortionate coach and ticket costs plus incidental other costs and go to Wembley, to watch any two teams contest the final or spend probably less than half the cost and half the travel to go to MW, watch a series of games, one of which is guaranteed to involve the team you support........

    If you’re the “fan” and your wife/partner/pal/family only go to make up numbers, the prestige of being at a final is lost on them. My wife rarely comes to the GF with me if Saints aren’t playing because she doesn’t follow the “Neutral” standpoint of going to a final, but I always go regardless because I enjoy the day out in Mcr drinking and catching up with people and other fans. The actual game (if it ain’t Saints) is incidental but I still go!


    If the CC final was at the Etihad, would it be better attended?


    Expansion out of the heartlands is a pipe dream, we should be consolidating what we have and strengthening it......
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Imho MW is what kills the CC.

    Taking your Saints hat off and adopting any SL club fan mentality for a moment.

    Why pay extortionate coach and ticket costs plus incidental other costs and go to Wembley, to watch any two teams contest the final or spend probably less than half the cost and half the travel to go to MW, watch a series of games, one of which is guaranteed to involve the team you support........

    If you’re the “fan” and your wife/partner/pal/family only go to make up numbers, the prestige of being at a final is lost on them. My wife rarely comes to the GF with me if Saints aren’t playing because she doesn’t follow the “Neutral” standpoint of going to a final, but I always go regardless because I enjoy the day out in Mcr drinking and catching up with people and other fans. The actual game (if it ain’t Saints) is incidental but I still go!


    If the CC final was at the Etihad, would it be better attended?


    Expansion out of the heartlands is a pipe dream, we should be consolidating what we have and strengthening it......
    To be honest, I don't understand going watching other teams in finals full stop, I don't whatsoever. Fair enough, you enjoy a day on the skite round Manchester, as do I but I certainly would enjoy it less with W***n or Leeds fans near me. As I've said previously, the same goes for MW, I just don't get it, it's just another gimick played in a crap atmosphere in a half empty stadium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomsepho View Post
    Its the one sport i truly hate, run one play, right we have to wait 30 seconds for the fat lump sumo wrestlers who just stand there to move up the pitch, all whilst wearing body armour.
    Point A, the old body armour argument is well worn and ignorant. The rules do not resemble RU or RL were there are certain rules around how you can tackle. American Football is inherently more dangerous in terms of collisions, so pads and helmets basically save careers and in the long term probably lives.

    Point B, 'fat lump sumo wrestlers' do not 'just stand there'. They are an important part of the game. You can be all shapes and sizes and play on an American Football team, much like in the old days of RL. Ask anybody ignorant of RL to describe the modern game, and you'd be complaining at the 'ignorance' of their opinions, which would probably be that a load of 15 stone robots (who can switch between being a forward and a back in the blink of an eye because they lack unique skill sets and are all built the same) spend 80 minutes running into brick walls like idiots until one set of players gets tired. Is that not what our game looks like to those who don't watch it regularly? Why do people think it's fine for second rowers to play at centre? Why do we now produce wingers who look like forwards and spend half their time running the ball at brick walls? Why do we have loads of subs which means our forwards can have a break after 20 minutes, etc, etc?

    But this is all cultural. You grow up with stuff, you ignore the stupid aspects of it, and if you don't grow up with something you pick the stupid bits out and focus on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Imho MW is what kills the CC.

    Taking your Saints hat off and adopting any SL club fan mentality for a moment.

    Why pay extortionate coach and ticket costs plus incidental other costs and go to Wembley, to watch any two teams contest the final or spend probably less than half the cost and half the travel to go to MW, watch a series of games, one of which is guaranteed to involve the team you support........

    If you’re the “fan” and your wife/partner/pal/family only go to make up numbers, the prestige of being at a final is lost on them. My wife rarely comes to the GF with me if Saints aren’t playing because she doesn’t follow the “Neutral” standpoint of going to a final, but I always go regardless because I enjoy the day out in Mcr drinking and catching up with people and other fans. The actual game (if it ain’t Saints) is incidental but I still go!


    If the CC final was at the Etihad, would it be better attended?


    Expansion out of the heartlands is a pipe dream, we should be consolidating what we have and strengthening it......
    Have a mate that’s a Widnes fan and he said to me that Magic was their cup final. He acknowledged that they’d not get to a cup final or a Grand Final and said he’d rather spend the money on a weekend in Newcastle and get to watch Widnes than go to London and pay double for everything and have to watch Wigan or Warrington.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    What's wrong with you. You can't sit down and watch for 4 hours when the ball is in play for a whole 16 mins; or as in one recent Super Bowl 12 mins. Don't forget that at HT you get to hear someone you have probably never heard of get to sing. Even RU has the ball in play longer than that.
    Depends how you define 'in play'. At the end of every play a 40 second play clock begins, but the ball can be snapped at any point in that 40 seconds. The defence will be on their guard and actively playing the game even if the ball is sat there waiting to be snapped. Is that much different to the amount of time in a RL game when a tackle is being made and nothing is happening whilst everyone resets every 10 seconds? The defensive team are not standing around whilst this is happening, they are making sure they are lined up, in position, trying to fill gaps, preparing etc. At those moments (there are hundreds in a RL game) the ball is 'in play' but there is very little happening to the naked eye, but there's actually loads going on. Same in the NFL. One play ends, another is about to begin, it looks like the ball is not 'in play' but for the teams on the field it is very much 'in play' as much as the ball is 'in play' whilst three lads are lying on top of a ball carrier in RL.

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    I will draft the letter in the next day or two and stick it here for comments and amendments, and to see how many (if any) of you want to stick your name to it. I reckon we've covered everything in here, thanks for the thoughts and ideas, all really valuable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I will draft the letter in the next day or two and stick it here for comments and amendments, and to see how many (if any) of you want to stick your name to it. I reckon we've covered everything in here, thanks for the thoughts and ideas, all really valuable.
    Thank you for taking time to put this letter together.


    If this thread has shown anything is that regardless of the numerous issues brought up there is still , at the heart of it a fan base who love this sport enough to do something as proactive as having discussions and putting together something in writing to let the RFL/SL know our opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    Thank you for taking time to put this letter together.


    If this thread has shown anything is that regardless of the numerous issues brought up there is still , at the heart of it a fan base who love this sport enough to do something as proactive as having discussions and putting together something in writing to let the RFL/SL know our opinions.
    I echo this. Hopefully this is the start of something bigger happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Depends how you define 'in play'. At the end of every play a 40 second play clock begins, but the ball can be snapped at any point in that 40 seconds. The defence will be on their guard and actively playing the game even if the ball is sat there waiting to be snapped. Is that much different to the amount of time in a RL game when a tackle is being made and nothing is happening whilst everyone resets every 10 seconds? The defensive team are not standing around whilst this is happening, they are making sure they are lined up, in position, trying to fill gaps, preparing etc. At those moments (there are hundreds in a RL game) the ball is 'in play' but there is very little happening to the naked eye, but there's actually loads going on. Same in the NFL. One play ends, another is about to begin, it looks like the ball is not 'in play' but for the teams on the field it is very much 'in play' as much as the ball is 'in play' whilst three lads are lying on top of a ball carrier in RL.
    For me there is a world of difference comparing a player being tackled That has hold of the ball and may be trying to offload, or get up for a fast PTB and waiting for an offensive team to leave the field while a defensive team takes it's place etc. I admit I used to enjoy a day out watching the 49ers when I lived over there. But, it was more the day out as a whole rather than the game itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I will draft the letter in the next day or two and stick it here for comments and amendments, and to see how many (if any) of you want to stick your name to it. I reckon we've covered everything in here, thanks for the thoughts and ideas, all really valuable.
    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    Thank you for taking time to put this letter together.


    If this thread has shown anything is that regardless of the numerous issues brought up there is still , at the heart of it a fan base who love this sport enough to do something as proactive as having discussions and putting together something in writing to let the RFL/SL know our opinions.
    Fully agreed thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Fully agreed thank you.
    Can add my name

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    Quote Originally Posted by mufcsaint View Post
    Can add my name
    You haven't seen it yet! ;-)

    Also, I'll need real names so we can do that bit when the letter is ready to go, via PM's most likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Point A, the old body armour argument is well worn and ignorant. The rules do not resemble RU or RL were there are certain rules around how you can tackle. American Football is inherently more dangerous in terms of collisions, so pads and helmets basically save careers and in the long term probably lives.

    Point B, 'fat lump sumo wrestlers' do not 'just stand there'. They are an important part of the game. You can be all shapes and sizes and play on an American Football team, much like in the old days of RL. Ask anybody ignorant of RL to describe the modern game, and you'd be complaining at the 'ignorance' of their opinions, which would probably be that a load of 15 stone robots (who can switch between being a forward and a back in the blink of an eye because they lack unique skill sets and are all built the same) spend 80 minutes running into brick walls like idiots until one set of players gets tired. Is that not what our game looks like to those who don't watch it regularly? Why do people think it's fine for second rowers to play at centre? Why do we now produce wingers who look like forwards and spend half their time running the ball at brick walls? Why do we have loads of subs which means our forwards can have a break after 20 minutes, etc, etc?

    But this is all cultural. You grow up with stuff, you ignore the stupid aspects of it, and if you don't grow up with something you pick the stupid bits out and focus on them.
    I'd say NFL is growing in appeal in the UK; its beautifully presented here: I love Mike Florio's programme with Chris Sims, the game day experience is well anchored by Neil Reynolds (who lets the game do the talking without silly patter) and the guest in the studio are relaxed, reasoned and not over hyped. The viewer feels like they are part of the studio team as opposed to being preached at.

    Some of the documentaries on the old NFL winning teams are a lesson in how to produce a sport documentary and add further to the charm of the sport. Then there's the Inside the huddle podcast which is also excellent. Compare that against something like Boots N' All and its successors. A shinging beacon as to what 2020's presentation should look like.

    It won't be for all but I will add that a 'fat sumo' lump like say, Trent Williams ran his 40 yard combine in 4.7 seconds. Its a sport where the levels of athleticism are extremely high.
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 25th February 2021 at 18:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Some of the documentaries on the old NFL winning teams are a lesson in how to produce a sport documentary and add further to the charm of the sport. Then there's the Inside the huddle podcast which is also excellent. Compare that against something like Boots N' All and its successors. A shinging beacon as to what 2020's presentation should look like.
    Boots N All, ah the days when Sky realised that covering RL didn't just involve games! And Backchat, another show that feels like from another era. At least we had those shows once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Boots N All, ah the days when Sky realised that covering RL didn't just involve games! And Backchat, another show that feels like from another era. At least we had those shows once.
    But we’ve got the aftermatch debate on the red button #cuttingedge!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    To be honest, I don't understand going watching other teams in finals full stop, I don't whatsoever. Fair enough, you enjoy a day on the skite round Manchester, as do I but I certainly would enjoy it less with W***n or Leeds fans near me. As I've said previously, the same goes for MW, I just don't get it, it's just another gimick played in a crap atmosphere in a half empty stadium.
    Maybe it’s because I pal on with Leigh, Salford, Wigan, Leeds and Wire fans as well as St Helens fans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Maybe it’s because I pal on with Leigh, Salford, Wigan, Leeds and Wire fans as well as St Helens fans.
    Fair enough, everyone to their own, it's just not for me.

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    Sorry, struggling for time today...

    This is what I have so far. Please give feedback. What is good, what is crap, what needs editing, etc. If you're going to quote, please just select the bits you'd like editing or it'll get really difficult to get through the thread with this whole thing stuck in a box above everyone's replies. Thanks


    We are Rugby League fans, passionate and loyal towards our sport. Between us it would be hard to even begin to calculate how many games we have collectively been to, how many miles we have collectively travelled and how much money we have collectively spent following this great sport of ours. We are also St Helens fans, and as fans of the back-to-back Super League champions we feel that we can write this letter without it coming across as a complaint from a group of fans who are bitter at their particular club not achieving its potential.
    The aim of this is not to simply air our grievances but to challenge the people in charge of our game to answer some fundamental questions about the state of Rugby League in 2021. This is our challenge to you, to take this letter in the spirit that it is intended and respond to it with answers or proposed solutions.
    What are the main issues that have prompted us to write? We believe they can be grouped into two categories, Commercial presentation and Structure.
    We have framed it this way in the hope that the questions we ask can be answered in relation to the other questions within the same category.

    Issue 1 – Commercial presentation

    Sponsorship and Marketing – we are concerned that the sport continues to struggle to attract top tier sponsorship for its major events. There have been confident words expressed by people in the game about the commercial viability of the sport, yet the people in charge of attracting sponsorship were responsible for the 2012 deal with a sponsor who didn’t pay any money, and their successors are responsible for reportedly only managing to obtain a deal in 2017 with the current sponsor for just over £1m a year (now extended to include the Challenge Cup). In contrast, the rugby union Premiership’s current deal is reportedly around £10m annually. This despite club rugby league consistently attracting higher television audiences on a bigger broadcaster and despite rugby league having a marquee end of season championship decider that is watched by a bigger audience.

    Television coverage – we are of the opinion that the sport’s main television partner has too much influence over the game, and we do not believe that Rugby League is getting value for money from its main television deal. We also remain perplexed that Rugby League doesn’t have a nationally broadcast prime-time highlights show on a free-to-air channel.

    Branding – we believe that the branding of our sports main competition as Super League has had a detrimental effect on the sports abilities to retain a unique position in the UK sporting landscape. It has meant that the media and broadcasters now refer to our league competition (and therefore at times our sport) without using the word rugby, which has given rugby union a free pass in their attempts to colonise the name for their own benefits. And whilst Super League may have been a unique name for a competition in 1996 it is now also used by numerous sports such as netball and women’s football. We have ended up in a situation where the sports main competition now has a name which doesn’t contain the word rugby and is also no longer unique.

    We have the following questions.
    • Do you believe that rugby league is currently achieving its potential in terms of attracting sponsors into the game?
    • Are you concerned that the sport is now reliant on a betting company for the sponsorship of both Super League and the Challenge Cup at a time when restrictions on such sponsorship may come into place in the near future?
    • Do you believe that the television deals signed with Sky represent good value for money for the game?
    • Do you believe that the sport has gone into television negotiations in a position of strength or in a position whereby it has simply acceded to Sky’s proposals? Has there been an open process to gauge interest in the Super League television rights elsewhere?
    • Why are free-to-air highlights only shown in the small hours of Monday night in the North and then on Tuesday afternoons nationally? How does the game hope to grow when free-to-air highlights are shown four or five days after the start of the round of games they are covering?
    • Do you still believe that the brand-name Super League is helping the sport to define itself as the premier rugby league competition in the country?
    • Has any consideration been made to changing the name to incorporate the word rugby?

    Issue 2 – Structure

    Competition structure – we believe that the constant changes in the structure of the league season have harmed the image and integrity of the sport. Since the move to a play-off system in 1998 we have had six different play-off formats. In addition, the removal and then re-introduction of promotion and relegation, the short-term policy of franchising and the four-year concept of the Super / Middle 8s has meant that the league has looked amateurish in its thinking. Changes made and publicised as being widely supported throughout the game have then be universally abandoned within a few years on several occasions. Whilst these changes have annoyed fans of the game, one can only imagine how damaging they must have been in terms of attracting investment into the game, either financially or in terms of new fans. The decision in 2019 to revert to a 12-team competition with a top-5 play-off meant that we ended up back where we began in 1998. Two decades of short-term initiatives and ideas led us exactly nowhere.

    Salary Cap - whilst the salary cap has been increased (in addition to the introduction of the marquee rule) in recent years, it has not prevented some of our best players from leaving for the NRL. Whilst we cannot compete financially with Australian rugby league, there are clubs in our game who could spend more than they are currently permitted, which would enable us to retain some of our best talent and also increase the standards at the top of the game. We believe that the salary cap should be increased by a significant amount because we believe that it will be those at the top of the game that will drive the future success of the sport, and not those who have consistently failed to compete despite artificial barriers being placed to allow them to do so. Whilst some will see this as us promoting a system of 'haves' and 'have nots', we would argue that every club has been a 'have' given that all clubs caps has been covered by the television deals. Yet nearly every season we have ended up with the same end-result, with the same clubs at the top despite having hardly any financial advantage. We believe that the clubs at the bottom have had ample opportunities to close the gap, and that the clubs that consistently set the standards should be prioritised by allowing them to spend more on retaining the elite players and increasing competition at the top of the game.

    Rule changes - the constant rule changes have meant that things that were part-and-parcel of the game in one year where then removed the next, with no real explanation as to their benefits. Soundbites such as: “Super League always welcomes changes that add excitement for our fans and showcase the unique qualities of our players” mean nothing when fans haven’t actually been consulted in the process. A sport which constantly feels that it needs to reinvent itself is subconsciously telling the world that it doesn’t believe in itself.

    We have the following questions.
    • Why has the play-off format changed so often in little over two decades, when the initial top-five concept was not only the fairest but gave the greatest share of rewards to the most consistent sides over the regular season?
    • Have the constant changes in the structure of the league season been influenced by television partners?
    • Why are we not using the top-five system in 2021? The decision to revert to a top-six knock-out system in 2020 was understandable but was announced as a one-off. So why are we using it again in 2021 despite scheduling a full regular season?
    • Why are we allowing our best players to leave for the NRL when an increase in the salary cap would go someway to stopping it?
    • Why do the concerns of the less successful clubs seem to dictate policy when it comes to play-off structure and the salary cap?
    • Why are there constant rule changes to the sport?
    • Why should a drawn game be decided by golden point as opposed to just being a draw? Draws are part of British sporting culture, so why have we eradicated the reward of a point for drawing a game?

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    "We are also St Helens fans, and as fans of the back-to-back Super League champions we feel that we can write this letter without it coming across as a complaint from a group of fans who are bitter at their particular club not achieving its potential."


    This is literally the only bit I think might need to be changed. I would possibly be looking at making this letter a neutral as possible so it may get supoort from other fans.

    Other than that...absolutely spot on with everything else. Top job. A great read, easy to follow. Makes excellent points. I'll put my name to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    "We are also St Helens fans, and as fans of the back-to-back Super League champions we feel that we can write this letter without it coming across as a complaint from a group of fans who are bitter at their particular club not achieving its potential."


    This is literally the only bit I think might need to be changed. I would possibly be looking at making this letter a neutral as possible so it may get supoort from other fans.
    Fair enough, it’s a good point

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    Really good work. I personally do feel it has strength in coming from the Red Vee brand. If other clubs fans wish to send a similar document or RL Express wish to publish then fine. My two pence worth is you have omitted the framing for the future concept. In supporter facilities, the elderly, families and disabled are in effect barred as away supporters at Wakefield and Castleford. In a sporting environment looking to be inclusive how can that be justified.

    Commercially they are a "shambles" by the way. Yes I have seen our marketing people in the past totally turn them over! The guy who got his pants pulled down on numerous occasions is now lets say very significant! Famously bringing and taking trophies away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    Really good work. I personally do feel it has strength in coming from the Red Vee brand. If other clubs fans wish to send a similar document or RL Express wish to publish then fine. My two pence worth is you have omitted the framing for the future concept. In supporter facilities, the elderly, families and disabled are in effect barred as away supporters at Wakefield and Castleford. In a sporting environment looking to be inclusive how can that be justified.

    Commercially they are a "shambles" by the way. Yes I have seen our marketing people in the past totally turn them over! The guy who got his pants pulled down on numerous occasions is now lets say very significant! Famously bringing and taking trophies away.

    Yes I agree about the “Feaming the Future” point. It needs bringing up why it’s not been “enforced” at some outfits....
    Can't stop the spirits when they need you.

    This life is more than just a read through.

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