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Thread: Issues in the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Falling numbers for CC rounds and final is a big issue IMO. Something I don't really understand as the mood on here is that the CC should stay and is in need of some sort of boost. I'm guessing that is the general feeling across the games fan base? It's certainly something for the open letter.
    I like your idea of the donation and would be happy to cover that, but I stand by what I say. Many would moan about it being unfair, particularly if they're buying multiple tickets for a family group for one of the weaker sides. That £10 becomes £40 or £50.
    I am a season ticket holder. I do attend CC rounds involving Saints, and a group of us go to the final every year, so I guess I'm not the problem here?
    Part of the problem is RL has reduced itself to the point where its fans expect ‘summut for nowt.’ That culture is pandemic in the sport. Its come off years of clubs selling tickets for a Green Shield stamps around the time Eddie Hemmings was boasting of SL crowds growing. Even RU fans in blue collar areas like ‘Glawster’ will stump up to watch good rugby but the solution to every RL problem appears to be akin to lets sell tickets on groupon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Part of the problem is RL has reduced itself to the point where its fans expect ‘summut for nowt.’ That culture is pandemic in the sport. Its come off years of clubs selling tickets for a Green Shield stamps around the time Eddie Hemmings was boasting of SL crowds growing. Even RU fans in blue collar areas like ‘Glawster’ will stump up to watch good rugby but the solution to every RL problem appears to be akin to lets sell tickets on groupon.
    The breaking of that cycle is tough. The World Cup has attempted to get people to pay good money for some games. However, I know a fair few that have every intention of watching the games at Saints and some of the games around here in Leigh, Bolton, Manchester and Liverpool but have not bought any tickets because they’re expecting them to end up being heavily reduced.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Part of the problem is RL has reduced itself to the point where its fans expect ‘summut for nowt.’ ...
    Spot on! It's a bit like a shop that has too many sales. No one pays the full price, they just wait.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    The breaking of that cycle is tough. The World Cup has attempted to get people to pay good money for some games...
    They did, but I don't think it worked judging by the 'hurry Barry, tickets selling fast' emails I keep getting.
    Covid didn't help though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Spot on! It's a bit like a shop that has too many sales. No one pays the full price, they just wait.




    They did, but I don't think it worked judging by the 'hurry Barry, tickets selling fast' emails I keep getting.
    Covid didn't help though!
    Yeah I've bought tickets for the final and the Emirates, there's no way I'd have bought them so early but for the fear of missing out. If nothing else they've got the money sat in the bank for 12 months extra

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Part of the problem is RL has reduced itself to the point where its fans expect ‘summut for nowt.’ That culture is pandemic in the sport. Its come off years of clubs selling tickets for a Green Shield stamps around the time Eddie Hemmings was boasting of SL crowds growing. Even RU fans in blue collar areas like ‘Glawster’ will stump up to watch good rugby but the solution to every RL problem appears to be akin to lets sell tickets on groupon.
    Spot on. And it also reinforces some of the sterotypes we're trying to get away from, although 15 minutes in Tesco this morning tells me this town has a long, long way to go to get away from those sterotypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Maybe most of us, Wigan, Wire and some of the other stronger clubs with a decent CC record would, but I can see that having a negative impact on ST sales of the 'weaker' ones.
    I’m not sure I agree, given that STs are such a part of the culture of the game now. A club could increase their ST prices by £20 from one year to the next just because it felt like it, and I doubt anybody would not buy one as a result. It’s a natural annual increase for something that is very good value for money even with no extra games. If they increased it by £20-30 and then told fans that the ST then included Cup games would that mean anyone would not buy one when I doubt hardly anyone would baulk at a £20 increase year on year in the first place.

    The reason Cup crowds are so poor is down to STs in the first place. Once season tickets became such good value (and at some clubs massively undervalued) they became a big part of the culture of the sport. Fans buy them and then that’s it, that’s their purchase for the year. Anything over and above has to be amazing because they’ve already got 13 home games and have already paid for them. It’s resulted in a weird situation where thousands roll up for almost irrelevant regular season games but then stay away from must win knock games later in the season.

    Take Wire for example. The two most important games they played at the HJ in 2019 were the Cup game against Wigan and the play off game with Cas. Against Wigan they got 13k in the league and 7k in the Cup. Against Cas they got 9k in the league and 5.5k in the play offs. It’s a ridiculous state of affairs when the league game against Wigan attracted more than the two massive knock out games combined. No other reason for this than the fact that people had STs for the league games so rolled up, but then didn’t for the cup and play off games because they’d already done their spending and didn’t want to pay extra for games that were far more important.

    We’ve built this culture with cheapish STs and we aren’t going to change that now. Clubs finances are built on season ticket sales, and with the RFL pocketing cup revenue the clubs have no impetus to get us into the ground for those games. When the game is being watched by neutrals you can bet the games most watched are the cup and play off games, and that is the time when our game looks the most small time because the crowds aren’t there. Anyone watching a big cup game on the BBC or tuning in for a play off game would be excused for thinking they were the pinnacle of the season, and the crowds would make them think we get even less for run of the mill league games that count for a lot less within a play off structure. We need to change it, and sticking the games on the STs for what would be an acceptable annual price increase is the best way to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Falling numbers for CC rounds and final is a big issue IMO. Something I don't really understand as the mood on here is that the CC should stay and is in need of some sort of boost. I'm guessing that is the general feeling across the games fan base? It's certainly something for the open letter.
    I like your idea of the donation and would be happy to cover that, but I stand by what I say. Many would moan about it being unfair, particularly if they're buying multiple tickets for a family group for one of the weaker sides. That £10 becomes £40 or £50.
    I am a season ticket holder. I do attend CC rounds involving Saints, and a group of us go to the final every year, so I guess I'm not the problem here?
    Yeah there's never a perfect solution and someone will always moan it was just an idea. To build on it a little call it £5 extra per season ticket but it gives a £5 discount on the semis and final with no other discounts available. I'm fine with early bird offers as it's an investment but like others selling tickets on the cheap on Groupon just doesn't make sense to me.

    If the money comes back to the community game in the area that it's spent I think a lot of folk would see it as a charitable donation and it would cause less whinging but there is a lot more admin to do it this way.

    There are too many away days/extras for a lot of people between CC semis; final; magic weekend; the play offs; and GF, it's a big commitment monetarily. I think rationalising these "events" and having one direction across the sport would help to increase crowds. As someone mentioned elsewhere you can have too much of a good thing.

    I honestly don't know what the answer is to all these interrelated problems but I feel it all comes down to the leadership and management across the sport. Too many cooks are spoiling the broth. There's plenty of holes in the idea but a competent administration should be able to come up with something better than me/us. That's where the issue lies for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I’m not sure I agree, given that STs are such a part of the culture of the game now. A club could increase their ST prices by £20 from one year to the next just because it felt like it, and I doubt anybody would not buy one as a result. It’s a natural annual increase for something that is very good value for money even with no extra games. If they increased it by £20-30 and then told fans that the ST then included Cup games would that mean anyone would not buy one when I doubt hardly anyone would baulk at a £20 increase year on year in the first place...
    I guess that's where we disagree? I think folks would baulk at any increase if it wasn't in line with similar increases to tickets on the gate. I know quite a few who work out how many games they need to attend to make a ST worth while, knowing that they may miss the odd game through holidays etc.
    Introducing a price increase for games that your team might not qualify for is going to cause problems IMO. Remember. We typically have a decent run in the CC and playoffs. Other clubs are not so fortunate.

    Maybe some sort of Carnet ticket is the way forward? You just buy access to a set number of games (which would have to be terrace or unreserved seating) which could be used for CC rounds and play-offs as well as regular league games, and could even be fully transferable and could be carried over to future seasons.
    Last edited by KentishBarry; 20th February 2021 at 19:11. Reason: I can't spell 'where'!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Spot on. And it also reinforces some of the sterotypes we're trying to get away from, although 15 minutes in Tesco this morning tells me this town has a long, long way to go to get away from those sterotypes.
    Exactly mate. I remember you moaning about the increase of whoppers attending matches and I agree: The bottom line is that when clubs put prices to rock bottom its much more likely that you'll get people rocking up who don't really care that much about the result. They are'nt really invested in the team (no pun intended) as they've not put much down in the first place.

    Its typically myopic RL strategy across most clubs. Its like chairmen whinging they can't get strong commercial partners at the same time they are plastering Joe's Taxi's, Bill and Bob's skips, and Foxy Bingo across their rep strips. The whole sport is run like a joke.

    Even at Saints the branding is poor - the logo is an absolute mess and there was never a convincing reason to change it in the first place.

    I'm not sure of McManus was sniffing glue when they changed that badge but it feels a case of 'we need a change of direction so we'll come up with a new logo.' The classic branding folly. As someone who has worked in HK he should have noted HKJC as a properly branded and well run sporting entity.

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    Spot on, if you were a blue chip international brand would you want to be associated with a small nicotine seller or a sport associated with low brow betting companies.

    Wire appears to be able to attract Emirates and BMW, perhaps the reason is that they don’t under sell their brand.

    It could be swings and roundabouts, we may get much more money from nicotine sellers than they get from BMW, but it’s the subsequent sponsors that will start to payout.

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    Would people be more inclined to buy season tickets if we played our home games on a Saturday?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinkers89 View Post
    Would people be more inclined to buy season tickets if we played our home games on a Saturday?
    The question is interesting because to answer it properly requires proper fan engagement and not some whopper at sky calling the odds. The last time this was properly discussed in the game was probably nearly 20 years ago.

    I seem to recall people against Saturday games but that was then and we are two decades on. At the least it can’t help to ask the question as part of a proper reengagement piece.

    Its a forlorn hope though because RL is basically the Uriah Heep of the sporting work and will forever toady up to SKY like the supine entity it is.

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    Have a look back. The must watch game was 3rd round challenge cup. normally full houses, then it dipped for the semi final and sold out final. 40 years on and Bradford panicked and went stack em high sell em cheap. A season ticket at Odsal was less than Keighley, Dewsbury or Batley, hoping to close them down, then increase the price. If the game realigns under one governing body, bite the bullet, CC games in with a season ticket and a tenner for everyone else until the 3rd round then charge full price for all and see if it works again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    Have a look back. The must watch game was 3rd round challenge cup. normally full houses, then it dipped for the semi final and sold out final. 40 years on and Bradford panicked and went stack em high sell em cheap. A season ticket at Odsal was less than Keighley, Dewsbury or Batley, hoping to close them down, then increase the price. If the game realigns under one governing body, bite the bullet, CC games in with a season ticket and a tenner for everyone else until the 3rd round then charge full price for all and see if it works again.
    Is this not an issue for a lot of sports where season ticket culture has taken over, people pay monthly and don't think of it as real - look how many people miss the odd match because they can't be bothered, nobody in their right mind would purchase a ticket through the week and not bother going.

    I think a lot get season tickets to secure their seat, I have to miss two or three games a year due to work, it'd be cheaper for me to pay every week in all likelihood, but I happily pay to keep my seat.

    I mentioned about it being an issue for other sports, if you look at some of the FA Cup or League Cup crowds, a lot of the premiership struggle to sell tickets for FA Cup fixtures if it's against a lower league team, obviously big games still still out.

    I do agree there's a delicate balance, people hold off in the expectation of cheaper tickets, which don't come, so they don't bother. It's how you increase it after people get hooked

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Surely how? Yes they should have promoted it but are you trying to say the RFL had no responsibility to do the same given the way they constantly play the expansion card.
    I think the RFL responsibilities lie with promoting such events to potential attendees so that the numbers at the games are maximised. The role of the host city should be to ensure that the appropriate infrastructure is in place to support the visiting fans and allow local businesses to reap the optimum benefit, especially as the funds that the city will have paid to the RFL have largely come from local business/residents.
    Last edited by Tabasco; 20th February 2021 at 23:07.

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    [QUOTE=eddiewaringsflatcap;812946]Part of the problem is RL has reduced itself to the point where its fans expect ‘summut for nowt.’ That culture is pandemic in the sport. Its come off years of clubs selling tickets for a Green Shield stamps around the time Eddie Hemmings was boasting of SL crowds growing. Even RU fans in blue collar areas like ‘Glawster’ will stump up to watch good rugby but the solution to every RL problem appears to be akin to lets sell tickets on groupon.[/QUOTI

    I love coming back to St Helens for a couple of weeks at a time. I usually get 3 weekends in - 2 home 1 away. I enjoy a lot of the atmosphere outside of the game, so I am not trying to belittle the town. But, when I come back the "summat for nowt"culture seems endemic not just with the fans. No one seems to want to pay for anything, which makes the prices for visitors like my wife much more attractive. The cheap prices end up costing me a fortune.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Remember. We typically have a decent run in the CC and playoffs. Other clubs are not so fortunate
    Home draws in the Cup are pure luck of the draw, not about being a top team. If we look at the 12 SL clubs this year we can see that 8 of the 12 played a home game in the Cup in 2018, and 9 did in 2019. Wigan didn’t get a home tie in either year, but they played home play off games both years. So, in effect 9 clubs got at least one extra home game in 2018 and 10 got one in 2019. This simply isn’t a case of big clubs benefitting and smaller clubs not benefitting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Home draws in the Cup are pure luck of the draw, not about being a top team. If we look at the 12 SL clubs this year we can see that 8 of the 12 played a home game in the Cup in 2018, and 9 did in 2019. Wigan didn’t get a home tie in either year, but they played home play off games both years. So, in effect 9 clubs got at least one extra home game in 2018 and 10 got one in 2019. This simply isn’t a case of big clubs benefitting and smaller clubs not benefitting.
    So we're now adding 'luck of the draw' to these extra games that people will be paying for within their ST price increase. IMO that an even greater reason for people to moan if home draws are thin on the ground!
    Don't get me wrong. I see where you're coming from regarding somehow adding CC or/and playoffs to the ST. I said earlier that I would buy into that, but I tend to go to games anyway.
    I mentioned 'Carnet' type tickets earlier. Do you think that sort of approach could work? I realise that people would perhaps 'cherry pick' their games, so it could have a negative impact, but it could be a possible way forward to getting bums on seats again depending on how it's packaged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    I mentioned 'Carnet' type tickets earlier. Do you think that sort of approach could work? I realise that people would perhaps 'cherry pick' their games, so it could have a negative impact, but it could be a possible way forward to getting bums on seats again depending on how it's packaged.
    As in, you get to pick 10 games (for example) over the season? Edit - saw your previous post, it’s a decent idea and you’ve gotten rid of the main issue by saying it would be for unreserved seating and terracing. I had wondered how it would work where the club wouldn’t know who was turning up for which game and ending up with prime seats unoccupied for some games, etc, but you’ve cleared that up.

    The main issue with the idea is that it’s probably over complicated and wouldn’t be taken up by enough people to make a real difference. I still think an all-encompassing ST covering all games would be the most practical solution.

    As a compromise, maybe set the ST prices for all games and make that the default, noting that the ST covers all home games including any Cup and Play-Off games, but then note that for a reduced price (£20 less) you just get the 13 league games. Frame it that way and encourage people to see the default option as the value for money deal where they wouldn’t need to think about spending extra for a big Cup tie or a Play Off semi final, games that they’d want to go to but may think twice about financially. If people want the slightly cheaper version it’s available as well.

    End of the day, our last two home QFs have had crowds of 6453 and 9644. That’s awful for a club that averages 12000 for far less important regular season games. I don’t think the thousands who stay away from the Cup games deem the Cup to be less important, they just don’t want to pay extra because they’ve been accustomed to one payment per year for their games. It needs to change because the Cup is our window to the world. It’s the comp we have that is on free TV and gets the biggest audiences. It’s the time we have to showcase the sport, with big knock out games which could easily be played in front of packed houses in prime Sat and Sun afternoon slots in the summer.

    Are we willing to ignore all this? Are we willing to avoid making an easy step to eradicate the issue, and therefore admitting that we’re happy to look like a crap small time sport on the BBC? All for £20 a person every year? If so, we deserve to fail.
    Last edited by Gray77; 21st February 2021 at 14:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    As in, you get to pick 10 games (for example) over the season? Edit - saw your previous post, it’s a decent idea and you’ve gotten rid of the main issue by saying it would be for unreserved seating and terracing. I had wondered how it would work where the club wouldn’t know who was turning up for which game and ending up with prime seats unoccupied for some games, etc, but you’ve cleared that up.

    The main issue with the idea is that it’s probably over complicated and wouldn’t be taken up by enough people to make a real difference. I still think an all-encompassing ST covering all games would be the most practical solution.

    As a compromise, maybe set the ST prices for all games and make that the default, noting that the ST covers all home games including any Cup and Play-Off games, but then note that for a reduced price (£20 less) you just get the 13 league games. Frame it that way and encourage people to see the default option as the value for money deal where they wouldn’t need to think about spending extra for a big Cup tie or a Play Off semi final, games that they’d want to go to but may think twice about financially. If people want the slightly cheaper version it’s available as well.

    End of the day, our last two home QFs have had crowds of 6453 and 9644. That’s awful for a club that averages 12000 for far less important regular season games. I don’t think the thousands who stay away from the Cup games deem the Cup to be less important, they just don’t want to pay extra because they’ve been accustomed to one payment per year for their games. It needs to change because the Cup is our window to the world. It’s the comp we have that is on free TV and gets the biggest audiences. It’s the time we have to showcase the sport, with big knock out games which could easily be played in front of packed houses in prime Sat and Sun afternoon slots in the summer.

    Are we willing to ignore all this? Are we willing to avoid making an easy step to eradicate the issue, and therefore admitting that we’re happy to look like a crap small time sport on the BBC? All for £20 a person every year? If so, we deserve to fail.
    Why not have both options. I know the carnet would be perfect for me, pay as you go type option with a minimum of £100 deposit. I think one of the smaller Rotterdam football clubs has something similar, a flexi or something like that, they know they can't compete with Feyenoord but can draw a few of their fans when they're away or not playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Why not have both options. I know the carnet would be perfect for me, pay as you go type option with a minimum of £100 deposit. I think one of the smaller Rotterdam football clubs has something similar, a flexi or something like that, they know they can't compete with Feyenoord but can draw a few of their fans when they're away or not playing.
    I read that half a dozen times and wondered why you were comparing a smaller Rotherham club with Feyenoord! My Dad lived in Rotterdam for a year and I spent a summer there, and yet despite you typing Rotterdam I still saw Rotherham, weird.

    Yeah, have all options available. Full fat season ticket, league only season ticket, 10 game come as you please ticket, why not.

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    I'd be in for a flexi-ticket too. I work away and have a young family so a full season ticket is too much to commit to.

    I was listening to the 40-20 podcast earlier and they had a good half hour on the state of the game, it's lack of leadership, what's going wrong and what needs to happen moving forward and their views and ideas were very similar to ours and show that disenchantment is more widespread than just us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I read that half a dozen times and wondered why you were comparing a smaller Rotherham club with Feyenoord! My Dad lived in Rotterdam for a year and I spent a summer there, and yet despite you typing Rotterdam I still saw Rotherham, weird.

    Yeah, have all options available. Full fat season ticket, league only season ticket, 10 game come as you please ticket, why not.
    Great city. I'd move back there tomorrow.

    I'm not sure why we don't have this option actually, it seems too simple an idea not to have been done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Great city. I'd move back there tomorrow.

    I'm not sure why we don't have this option actually, it seems too simple an idea not to have been done.
    I don’t think the clubs have any power to include cup games in season tickets because they’re run by the RFL I think. So it would need a massive revamp of how it all works to include non league games in a season ticket or a 10 game one etc. If we’re talking just league games, I doubt any club would think it worth their while to do a 10 game ST when the entire home season is only 13, but if it were 6-7 that would maybe make more sense and entice a few more in.

    As for Rotterdam, haven’t been for a while, but always had a soft spot for it, a real vibrant place but very working class and ‘real’, a bit like a smaller Hamburg and a bit like some of our Northern English cities in a few ways. My Dad always spoke highly of the place and felt very much at home there back in the day. And I always check Feyenoord’s scores as well, they’re a proper club but don’t get much of a look in beyond Holland because of Ajax unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I don’t think the clubs have any power to include cup games in season tickets because they’re run by the RFL I think. So it would need a massive revamp of how it all works to include non league games in a season ticket or a 10 game one etc. If we’re talking just league games, I doubt any club would think it worth their while to do a 10 game ST when the entire home season is only 13, but if it were 6-7 that would maybe make more sense and entice a few more in.

    As for Rotterdam, haven’t been for a while, but always had a soft spot for it, a real vibrant place but very working class and ‘real’, a bit like a smaller Hamburg and a bit like some of our Northern English cities in a few ways. My Dad always spoke highly of the place and felt very much at home there back in the day. And I always check Feyenoord’s scores as well, they’re a proper club but don’t get much of a look in beyond Holland because of Ajax unfortunately.
    I don't want to bang on about carnet, but there's no reason the tickets couldn't be valid for more than one season, and it could be any number 10,20,50 etc, and could be fully transferable, so you and your mates could turn up at a game and hand over several in one go.
    Another option, more along your 'full fat' lines would be to include a few carnet type vouchers at the back of the regular ST with the same terms and conditions as above.
    I think what we can all agree is that there is room for change, with the focus being on improving CC and playoff numbers. Obviously, any change needs to suit both fans and club, and we need to avoid the problems linked to 'bargain basement, BOGOF' issues already mentioned on this thread.
    Good luck with the letter!

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