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Thread: Issues in the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by forward ref View Post
    The greatest longer term issue in our game is that we don't have an expansion strategy and never have had one.
    In my opinion The RFL and Superleague need to come together and pick one geographic area to focus on and concentrate resources and opportunities to.
    I don't care where that is. It could be the Midlands or the North East or the South of France, it doesn't matter, such things can be decided after procedures such as SWOT analysis etc. are carried out. What matters is that everyone works together on a day to day tactical basis with the wider strategy in mind: that would be to expand and grow the game at all levels in X geographic area.
    What should happen then would be things like larger clubs to partner smaller clubs in the development area, the RFL would invest in training coaches and referees etc, in that area, a central marketing would be set up for that area and sponsors local to that geography would be sought etc. etc. etc.
    These are not my ideas, it is standard professional management found in just about every corporate management text book and training course, something the Rugby League world seems to lack in general.
    Which is why it wont happen.
    And is why we get pulled from one hair brained scheme to the next. Someone turns up with a hand full of magic beans and we jump at it, without ever stopping to think - does this fit with what we want to happen?
    Because we haven't even sat down and decided what we want to happen.

    I remember the Summer Conference (or whatever it was correctly known as) being set up amid great fanfare and optimism, comprised of non-heartlands clubs. IIRC, it was under the control of the RFL rather than BARLA, and initially thrived. The plan was to build grassroots interest in the sport in non-heartland areas. It seemed a sensible and very promising concept.

    I have some vague recollection of BARLA tantruming about it.

    At some point (I didn't follow this particularly closely), those conference teams came under BARLA control and some were merged into an expanded league system that included heartland amateur teams. Clubs struggled against established amateur 'giants'. The clubs that had done the best in the closed-shop Conference fell away.

    The separation of the professional and amateur aspects of the game has massively held the sport back for decades, as the relationship has been ludicrously fractious due to competing aims - and self-interests.

    Perhaps unfairly (I don't know) I've always viewed BARLA as the dinosaurs. Full of officials protective of their positions and sense of power.

    Whatever, it's led to a failure to have a unified and cohesive long-term plan for the expansion of the sport using fledgling amateur clubs.

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    Just watched the 2004 tri nations GB v Aus game at Wigan. Great game, total sell out crowd. Just looked back at the Tri Nations tournament, it was a good tournament but we diluted it in terms of intensity by making it 4 nations and variously including France, Scotland, Wales - and of course GB reverted to England. No tournament since 2016.

    I mean talk about the game shooting itself in the foot (again). Here was a strong, intense international tournament that the public got behind and we just chuck it away and all that interest dissipates.

    Out if interest I looked at the attendances for that 2004 tournament:
    Aus v GB 38,572 at the Etihad
    GB v NZ 20,372 at Huddersfield
    GB v Aus 25,004 (sell out) at Wigan
    NZ v GB 23,377 at KC Hull
    Final GB v Aus 39,120 at Elland Road

    30,000 average attendance for 5 GB games in one month.

    Makes you think, doesn’t it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coors View Post
    Just watched the 2004 tri nations GB v Aus game at Wigan. Great game, total sell out crowd. Just looked back at the Tri Nations tournament, it was a good tournament but we diluted it in terms of intensity by making it 4 nations and variously including France, Scotland, Wales - and of course GB reverted to England. No tournament since 2016.

    I mean talk about the game shooting itself in the foot (again). Here was a strong, intense international tournament that the public got behind and we just chuck it away and all that interest dissipates.

    Out if interest I looked at the attendances for that 2004 tournament:
    Aus v GB 38,572 at the Etihad
    GB v NZ 20,372 at Huddersfield
    GB v Aus 25,004 (sell out) at Wigan
    NZ v GB 23,377 at KC Hull
    Final GB v Aus 39,120 at Elland Road

    30,000 average attendance for 5 GB games in one month.

    Makes you think, doesn’t it?
    I agree. It continues more recently too.

    We got 32,000 for a dead rubber against New Zealand at Elland Road in 2018, 21,000 at Coventry to watch England v Scotland in 2016, crowds of 35,000 and 43,000 for internationals at the Olympic Stadium in 2015 and 2016 and recent international sell outs at Huddersfield, Hull and Wigan.

    And what do we do? Not play a home international for 3 years before the World Cup. If we genuinely want a national profile, the international game must be prioritised. Otherwise, we will only ever be a regional or sub-regional sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RV12 View Post
    I agree. It continues more recently too.

    We got 32,000 for a dead rubber against New Zealand at Elland Road in 2018, 21,000 at Coventry to watch England v Scotland in 2016, crowds of 35,000 and 43,000 for internationals at the Olympic Stadium in 2015 and 2016 and recent international sell outs at Huddersfield, Hull and Wigan.

    And what do we do? Not play a home international for 3 years before the World Cup. If we genuinely want a national profile, the international game must be prioritised. Otherwise, we will only ever be a regional or sub-regional sport.
    We were supposed to have a home Ashes series last year

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    Decided to reply on this thread on the reaction to the ESL as I think it has more direct relevance to the issues that Gray brought forward and the reaction from the government - namely to intervene - has been very interesting and potentially sets a new precedent. To quote a recent BBC News article:

    Mr Dowden said he had spoken to Uefa and the Football Association, who both oppose the move by the 12 clubs, adding that, "if they can't act, we will".

    "We will put everything on the table to prevent this from happening," he told MPs.

    "We are examining every option from governance reform to competition law and mechanisms that allow football to take place.

    "We will be reviewing everything Government does to support these clubs to play. We will do whatever it takes to protect our national game."

    A fan-led review, due to take place after the pandemic, has been brought forward because of the ESL announcement, Mr Dowden said.

    It will be led by former sports minister Tracey Crouch and consider how fans can have an even greater say in the oversight of the game.

    The review will also look at the finances of the men's and women's game, its governance and whether an independent football regulator should be set up.


    I find this potentially something that should be leveraged to bring RL under a microscope of how it is managed. I've made the point on corporate governance for a long time; it would be a step change to have an independent auditor go root and branch on how decisions were made in the sport. Its definitely something the sport needs - a proper review.

    Sadly whilst there are gutless journalists like Martyn Sadler who does absolutely nothing for RL but serve his own interests its unlikely to get much of a push from some, but I thought the subject worthy of mention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Decided to reply on this thread on the reaction to the ESL as I think it has more direct relevance to the issues that Gray brought forward and the reaction from the government - namely to intervene - has been very interesting and potentially sets a new precedent. To quote a recent BBC News article:

    Mr Dowden said he had spoken to Uefa and the Football Association, who both oppose the move by the 12 clubs, adding that, "if they can't act, we will".

    "We will put everything on the table to prevent this from happening," he told MPs.

    "We are examining every option from governance reform to competition law and mechanisms that allow football to take place.

    "We will be reviewing everything Government does to support these clubs to play. We will do whatever it takes to protect our national game."

    A fan-led review, due to take place after the pandemic, has been brought forward because of the ESL announcement, Mr Dowden said.

    It will be led by former sports minister Tracey Crouch and consider how fans can have an even greater say in the oversight of the game.

    The review will also look at the finances of the men's and women's game, its governance and whether an independent football regulator should be set up.


    I find this potentially something that should be leveraged to bring RL under a microscope of how it is managed. I've made the point on corporate governance for a long time; it would be a step change to have an independent auditor go root and branch on how decisions were made in the sport. Its definitely something the sport needs - a proper review.

    Sadly whilst there are gutless journalists like Martyn Sadler who does absolutely nothing for RL but serve his own interests its unlikely to get much of a push from some, but I thought the subject worthy of mention.

    Yeah, I wouldn't put too much hope in the government acting in good faith here.

    Big on soundbites, but don't expect any meaningful action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Yeah, I wouldn't put too much hope in the government acting in good faith here.

    Big on soundbites, but don't expect any meaningful action.
    Its a populist government so they are going to be attracted to being 'seen to act in the national interest' on the what is our national sport but its something to potentially leverage. The whole decision making apparatus of RL needs a thorough review.

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    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1559978891

    I joined the Loose Forward podcast for the first of three discussions about the issues raised in the letter. The first one is about Sponsorship and Branding. Give it a listen if you have an hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1559978891

    I joined the Loose Forward podcast for the first of three discussions about the issues raised in the letter. The first one is about Sponsorship and Branding. Give it a listen if you have an hour.
    I'll stick that on tomorrow to drown out the mad mullah banging on about virgin goats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1559978891

    I joined the Loose Forward podcast for the first of three discussions about the issues raised in the letter. The first one is about Sponsorship and Branding. Give it a listen if you have an hour.
    Heres one Gray.
    The metaphorical elephant in the room about European SuperLeague as it was in the football sense was their rights to use that title. Surely someone in rugby league copyrighted (whatever they do) that title. Apparently not as it was moreorless going to go through without any obstruction until, obviously, the fans stopped it. Thats indicative of a sport run like a working mans club.

    Anyway good luck pal - hope you call out Sadler for the gutless coward he is.

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    Sort of related:

    On a football fan site I also go on, this comment was made last night on a thread about the football ESL by a fairly casual RL follower (about the Saints game):

    Funny really, I watched a 'Super league' game tonight, proper use of video, entertainment, non stop player effort with no cheating at all, respect all round for referees who are professional and competent, a salary cap in place, respect for all involved in the game including fans (with response the other way similar), players not too distant from fans in terms of lifestyle.
    A few other comments broadly supportive of RL, about the clubs still being close to the community, players being more honest and not diving/feigning injury (didn't see Sezer last night, or Chris Hill everytime the Wire defence is in disarray!), about it still being a sport instead of a business.

    All good points, and perhaps we should be using these perceived positives as a basis for our marketing*



    * OK, perhaps 'marketing' sounds too professional for those running our sport, but you get my drift

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Sort of related:

    On a football fan site I also go on, this comment was made last night on a thread about the football ESL by a fairly casual RL follower (about the Saints game):



    A few other comments broadly supportive of RL, about the clubs still being close to the community, players being more honest and not diving/feigning injury (didn't see Sezer last night, or Chris Hill everytime the Wire defence is in disarray!), about it still being a sport instead of a business.

    All good points, and perhaps we should be using these perceived positives as a basis for our marketing*



    * OK, perhaps 'marketing' sounds too professional for those running our sport, but you get my drift
    Does the person in question have a Labrador and a white stick?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Heres one Gray.
    The metaphorical elephant in the room about European SuperLeague as it was in the football sense was their rights to use that title. Surely someone in rugby league copyrighted (whatever they do) that title. Apparently not as it was moreorless going to go through without any obstruction until, obviously, the fans stopped it. Thats indicative of a sport run like a working mans club.

    Anyway good luck pal - hope you call out Sadler for the gutless coward he is.
    Have just been listening to the Loose Forward Podcast about sponsorship and branding.

    Excellent! and the more I listened to it the more I'm staggered at how poorly the sport of Rugby League is being run once all the points are raised.

    It is truly shocking and a massive shakeup is needed of how the game is run. Well done for highlighting these issues. It is sad that the issues are being ignored by the powers that be and they should be ashamed.

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    Just finished listening to that podcast. Well done Gray, you came across brilliantly. It just doesn't make sense that the RFL aren't able to attract a wider range of more reputable sponsors when you consider the viewing figures on TV, attendances at games etc comparative to union. Its also a great point you make about the apparent perception from prospective sponsors that there aren't enough affluent RL fans and whether the RL is doing enough in their negotiations to demonstrate that that isn't the case.

    I really hope this goes somewhere it is so important that we as fans understand why things are the way they are and on the back of that explore if there is anything we can do to bring about some changes.

    I'm not holding out much hope for a response from the RL. I know the amount of buy in you got on here was pretty pathetic in the end although I know some people weren't necessarily in agreement with each and every point which might be one reason why? I just wandered if there is any means of going with this again later in the year if nothing comes of it this time? To be honest I'm not really intelligent enough when it comes to these sorts of things and I probably lack the foresight and understanding to know what would be best. I just wandered though if there is any means of distributing it to the wider RL community e.g. through different clubs online fans forums, possibly set up some sort of 'working group/ forum' with fans from different clubs to discuss, distribute it to amateur clubs at grass roots level and ask them to signpost their members/ parents towards it etc. Could it be framed up in a way that the individual points are separated out and someone could say whether they agree or disagree to that particular point rather than having to register their agreement to the whole thing?

    Obviously it's a big ask and time consuming and everyone has busy lives and I'm certainly not suggesting its your responsibility. I also couldn't commit myself to anything really truth be told. I cant help but think that if it garners much wider support from fans across the game it'll then be harder for them to ignore. There must be enough people who feel strongly enough about these things but also have the time on their hands to throw themselves into it.

    Anyway, the podcast was great and I look forward to listening to the others.

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    I wonder if members of this forum would be willing to share their occupations by PM as a sort of straw poll to establish who RL fans really are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    I wonder if members of this forum would be willing to share their occupations by PM as a sort of straw poll to establish who RL fans really are?
    What difference would that make?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    What difference would that make?
    It was really because of something Scrum Down said but my iPad was about to die and I didn’t have time to reply to and edit his post. In his first para he mentions potential sponsors’ perceptions of Rugby League fans. I know from experience that there are old fashioned ideas in the wider community about people who support Rugby League and the traditional heartland towns. I just thought a simple survey of people on this board might give Gray evidence to challenge those wrong perceptions.

    I’m proud of my working class heritage and the history of our sport but Rugby League has always attracted a wide range of supporters. When I was a child, I think a lot of the occupants of the main stand were successful local businessman and you only need to consider our current Chairman and other Board members, who, thank heavens, are still supporters to realise that we are a diverse lot. Your current location means you are a little out of the ordinary and even Rogues (bless him) seems to have had a varied work life. Anyway it was just an idea and, given the failure of enough of us to get behind Gray’s letter, probably will never get anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1559978891

    I joined the Loose Forward podcast for the first of three discussions about the issues raised in the letter. The first one is about Sponsorship and Branding. Give it a listen if you have an hour.
    Really thoughtful and well presented discussion Gray. So much sense spoken it's a travesty our game is run so badly.

    You came across really well mate. Look forward to the next one.
    "Never write off the Saints!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    It was really because of something Scrum Down said but my iPad was about to die and I didn’t have time to reply to and edit his post. In his first para he mentions potential sponsors’ perceptions of Rugby League fans. I know from experience that there are old fashioned ideas in the wider community about people who support Rugby League and the traditional heartland towns. I just thought a simple survey of people on this board might give Gray evidence to challenge those wrong perceptions.

    I’m proud of my working class heritage and the history of our sport but Rugby League has always attracted a wide range of supporters. When I was a child, I think a lot of the occupants of the main stand were successful local businessman and you only need to consider our current Chairman and other Board members, who, thank heavens, are still supporters to realise that we are a diverse lot. Your current location means you are a little out of the ordinary and even Rogues (bless him) seems to have had a varied work life. Anyway it was just an idea and, given the failure of enough of us to get behind Gray’s letter, probably will never get anywhere.
    In fairness I may have imagined this but I do seem to remember getting emails from the RFL at some point and I'm sure I've filled in surveys that asked general info about age, gender, occupation etc. Cant remember whether that was from the RFL or Saints. So it may be that they've tried to gather and map this information which would then help inform and strengthen negotiations with sponsors.

    If thats the case though respond to the letter explaining that. Demonstrate to the fans that you have done and are doing everything you can to sell the sport and its significant fan base to potential sponsors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    It was really because of something Scrum Down said but my iPad was about to die and I didn’t have time to reply to and edit his post. In his first para he mentions potential sponsors’ perceptions of Rugby League fans. I know from experience that there are old fashioned ideas in the wider community about people who support Rugby League and the traditional heartland towns. I just thought a simple survey of people on this board might give Gray evidence to challenge those wrong perceptions.

    I’m proud of my working class heritage and the history of our sport but Rugby League has always attracted a wide range of supporters. When I was a child, I think a lot of the occupants of the main stand were successful local businessman and you only need to consider our current Chairman and other Board members, who, thank heavens, are still supporters to realise that we are a diverse lot. Your current location means you are a little out of the ordinary and even Rogues (bless him) seems to have had a varied work life. Anyway it was just an idea and, given the failure of enough of us to get behind Gray’s letter, probably will never get anywhere.
    Yeah, I see what you mean now. Personally I don't see myself as anything other than working class but at the same time I like to eat in nice places, travel business class, have nice things etc but I don't think that changes anything about me, if anything it re-enforces the fact that I remember the hards times and I want better for myself.

    I think there's a few on here that have good jobs/lives but it would be my guess that a big percentage see themselves as working class.

    I think my point is that you can do whatever job, and be a success or a failure at it but a survey doesn't really tell the full story. I'm not knocking your idea as it's a valid marketing point but it perhaps needs to go deeper without being intrusive if you get my drift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrum Down View Post
    In fairness I may have imagined this but I do seem to remember getting emails from the RFL at some point and I'm sure I've filled in surveys that asked general info about age, gender, occupation etc. Cant remember whether that was from the RFL or Saints. So it may be that they've tried to gather and map this information which would then help inform and strengthen negotiations with sponsors.

    If thats the case though respond to the letter explaining that. Demonstrate to the fans that you have done and are doing everything you can to sell the sport and its significant fan base to potential sponsors.
    I remember a couple of those surveys, but I'm fairly certain that they were from students doing some sort of study as part of their degree.

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    Well done Gray

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    Glad to see it finally getting an airing in front of the wider RL audience. I’m surprised that they’ve not done an article around it though as surely it gives them plenty of discussion points.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Travelvocation View Post
    Glad to see it finally getting an airing in front of the wider RL audience. I’m surprised that they’ve not done an article around it though as surely it gives them plenty of discussion points.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well, it's the top headline on the site this morning so at least people will see it. I'll have a look at their forum and see if anybody leaves comments on there.

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