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Thread: How Competitive Would A Celtic Team Be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Threads tend to evolve as this one has, and to be honest, I think we've more or less covered the original question. IMO Celtic couldn't compete any more than Wales, Scotland and Ireland, so why not just leave things as they are? Let them complete at whatever level they find themselves. Unless we see some sort of mass movement of players turning to RL, as we've had in the past, then there's little you can do about it.
    The Grandparent rule doesn't really help. All you get are players not quite good enough for one of the 'bigger' nations (there's that word again). I think I could qualify for Celtic but as I said earlier, I'm English, so if they came knocking, you can guess what I'd do!

    Bigger? I don't follow football, but I see where Gray is coming from. I posted something on a different thread about Hull being a sleeping giant. I'll leave it there.

    Finally. I'm not a big fan of inventing teams just to try to copy State of Origin, although I can see why the authorities would want something similar.
    I don't like it myself, but I'll throw 'Rivers' into that mix. Mersey, Calder, Humber etc.
    I'll get my coat.
    Who are the biggest clubs is a matter for debate, conjecture and discussion. Not exact science. There are no official lists. It's an opinion. It's just Liverpool and Manchester United fans, being cut of the same cloth, are the sporting equivalent of trainspotters and want everyone to agree with them about which is the best "engine" lol. The best and most trusted response is to laugh at them.

    I said basically what you said about Hull. Their potential is huge but that potential has been dormant 60+ years so comparing them to clubs whose potential has been very much active in that period is silly.

    I'm guessing what you'd do is pretty much the same as what I would if someone asked me to play for England or GB btw lol! Curiously though the Granny rule is present in union but it works there possibly because the bulk of the teams are still made up by birth players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Threads tend to evolve as this one has, and to be honest, I think we've more or less covered the original question. IMO Celtic couldn't compete any more than Wales, Scotland and Ireland, so why not just leave things as they are? Let them complete at whatever level they find themselves. Unless we see some sort of mass movement of players turning to RL, as we've had in the past, then there's little you can do about it.
    The Grandparent rule doesn't really help. All you get are players not quite good enough for one of the 'bigger' nations (there's that word again). I think I could qualify for Celtic but as I said earlier, I'm English, so if they came knocking, you can guess what I'd do!

    Bigger? I don't follow football, but I see where Gray is coming from. I posted something on a different thread about Hull being a sleeping giant. I'll leave it there.

    Finally. I'm not a big fan of inventing teams just to try to copy State of Origin, although I can see why the authorities would want something similar.
    I don't like it myself, but I'll throw 'Rivers' into that mix. Mersey, Calder, Humber etc.
    I'll get my coat.
    I find myself in agreement with this position. Artificial creations either through padding out Ireland teams with established players through the grandparent rule or like ideas such as the proposed 'Celtic' nations serve to highlight the lack of the broader appeal of the game in the UK as opposed to helping it.

    The general public aren't stupid and are much more knowledgeable on sport then times gone by. A Scotsman or Irishman isn't going to be conned by a few SL players or NRL players having a bit of a bash for the World Cup or anything else. The game is where it is - only established as a minor sport in these areas with a very 'grassroots' presence. There is nothing wrong with that and encouraged the right way the game can grow but it won't happen overnight. Wales is starting to see the game grow through growth at the right level.

    Importing 'stars' to create some just stinks of desperation and short cut mechanisms that the game usually wants to take and ends up losing credibility with; moreso when some of these players then bugger off to play for England or Australia - total farce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    I find myself in agreement with this position. Artificial creations either through padding out Ireland teams with established players through the grandparent rule or like ideas such as the proposed 'Celtic' nations serve to highlight the lack of the broader appeal of the game in the UK as opposed to helping it.

    The general public aren't stupid and are much more knowledgeable on sport then times gone by. A Scotsman or Irishman isn't going to be conned by a few SL players or NRL players having a bit of a bash for the World Cup or anything else. The game is where it is - only established as a minor sport in these areas with a very 'grassroots' presence. There is nothing wrong with that and encouraged the right way the game can grow but it won't happen overnight. Wales is starting to see the game grow through growth at the right level.

    Importing 'stars' to create some just stinks of desperation and short cut mechanisms that the game usually wants to take and ends up losing credibility with; moreso when some of these players then bugger off to play for England or Australia - total farce.
    Not trying to be smart or aggressive but Ireland isn't in the UK. I agree with what you're saying though. As a Welshman there is much more pride in what Regan Grace in rugby league is achieving than in seeing someone who plays rugby league for Wales but was born in England or Australia. I honestly don't know how much development there is in Wales as per league. To be honest, I'd be surprised if there's all that much and it is always going to have its development seriously hindered by the strength of union. To be honest, when the union regions in Wales are such an embarrassment it's hard to envisage league being done right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Heretic View Post
    Who are the biggest clubs is a matter for debate, conjecture and discussion. Not exact science. There are no official lists. It's an opinion. It's just Liverpool and Manchester United fans, being cut of the same cloth, are the sporting equivalent of trainspotters and want everyone to agree with them about which is the best "engine" lol. The best and most trusted response is to laugh at them.

    I said basically what you said about Hull. Their potential is huge but that potential has been dormant 60+ years so comparing them to clubs whose potential has been very much active in that period is silly.
    Which Liverpool or United fan did you laugh at BTW?

    My last word on this, because you're not actually debating. Hull haven't been 'dormant' for 60+ years, and to say that they have been displays an ignorance of the sport. Whether you consider anything other than the league as irrelevant isn't actually important, because many competitions were important over the years, as evidenced by the crowds they got. The county cups were important, the Finals got big crowds. We won the Lancashire Cup in 84-85, it was massive for us as a club and the Final got a crowd we'd only dream of for a SL game these days. We beat Wigan in a Lancs Cup SF in 1991 in arguably the best atmosphere I ever witnessed in 25 years of going to Knowsley Road, because it mattered. It doesn't matter for you, but that's irrelevant because it mattered in the sport. When we beat Leeds to win the Regal Trophy in 87-88 it was a massive thing for us, a big trophy and kept us dreaming of winning other things.

    To say that winning county cups, the JPS/Regal trophy or the Premiership was irrelevant is just ignorant of the history of the game, simple as that. Hull won the league in the 80s and finished 2nd or 3rd several times in the decade, they got to 3 Challenge Cup Finals in the 80s, they won three Yorkshire Cups, they won the John Player, they won the Premiership in 1991 in front of 42,000 at Old Trafford, all achievements. To say that winning six honours between 81-91 or to say that winning 2 Challenge Cups in the last five years shows that they've been 'dormant' for 60+ years shows that you have a poor understanding of the history of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Which Liverpool or United fan did you laugh at BTW?

    My last word on this, because you're not actually debating. Hull haven't been 'dormant' for 60+ years, and to say that they have been displays an ignorance of the sport. Whether you consider anything other than the league as irrelevant isn't actually important, because many competitions were important over the years, as evidenced by the crowds they got. The county cups were important, the Finals got big crowds. We won the Lancashire Cup in 84-85, it was massive for us as a club and the Final got a crowd we'd only dream of for a SL game these days. We beat Wigan in a Lancs Cup SF in 1991 in arguably the best atmosphere I ever witnessed in 25 years of going to Knowsley Road, because it mattered. It doesn't matter for you, but that's irrelevant because it mattered in the sport. When we beat Leeds to win the Regal Trophy in 87-88 it was a massive thing for us, a big trophy and kept us dreaming of winning other things.

    To say that winning county cups, the JPS/Regal trophy or the Premiership was irrelevant is just ignorant of the history of the game, simple as that. Hull won the league in the 80s and finished 2nd or 3rd several times in the decade, they got to 3 Challenge Cup Finals in the 80s, they won three Yorkshire Cups, they won the John Player, they won the Premiership in 1991 in front of 42,000 at Old Trafford, all achievements. To say that winning six honours between 81-91 or to say that winning 2 Challenge Cups in the last five years shows that they've been 'dormant' for 60+ years shows that you have a poor understanding of the history of the game.
    "You're not actually debating"... from the guy who won't accept someone not agreeing 100% with his opinion... if only you could see how hard I'm laughing right now lol.

    "You have a poor understanding of the history of the game"... oooh triggered much lol? Absolutely marvellous outburst!

    No, I have a pretty decent understanding of what the word decade means. Ten years, right? And one championship in over six decades is not the record of a major club. The true measure of how great a club is is how often they win the championship imo. And Hull haven't done so regularly for decades. I never said the Challenge Cup was irrelevant. I said it's not comparable to the championship. Do you read what you want or actually what I've written because it's not the first time you've put words in my mouth lol?

    That you're spitting your dummy out over me disagreeing with you shows you know your argument is debatable.

    "My last word on this" then proceeds to write a mini essay to back up the even longer one earlier on lol.

    Will we go back to talking about the international game or are you going to have another tantrum lol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Heretic View Post
    "You're not actually debating"... from the guy who won't accept someone not agreeing 100% with his opinion... if only you could see how hard I'm laughing right now lol.

    "You have a poor understanding of the history of the game"... oooh triggered much lol? Absolutely marvellous outburst!

    No, I have a pretty decent understanding of what the word decade means. Ten years, right? And one championship in over six decades is not the record of a major club. The true measure of how great a club is is how often they win the championship imo. And Hull haven't done so regularly for decades. That you're spitting your dummy out over me disagreeing with you shows you know your argument is debatable.

    My last word on this then proceeds to write a mini essay to back up the even longer one earlier on.

    Will we go back to talking about the international game or are you going to have another tantrum lol?
    Triggered? Spitting my dummy out?

    That's me told then, I'll just go off and have a cry.

    In the meantime if you want to answer my questions go for it. No 'outbursts', etc, just answer the questions.

    *Leeds won 3 league titles in the first 134 years of their history. Were they are a big club before 2004?
    *In 1996 we hadn't won the league or the Cup for 20 years. Were we a big club in 1995?

    Simple questions should result in simple answers I reckon, so try your best. If your level of debate revolves around 'lol' and teenage twitter 'bantz' then good luck to you. As I say, you have no understanding of the game, and you've displayed it throughout the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Triggered? Spitting my dummy out?

    That's me told then, I'll just go off and have a cry.

    In the meantime if you want to answer my questions go for it. No 'outbursts', etc, just answer the questions.

    *Leeds won 3 league titles in the first 134 years of their history. Were they are a big club before 2004?
    *In 1996 we hadn't won the league or the Cup for 20 years. Were we a big club in 1995?

    Simple questions should result in simple answers I reckon, so try your best. If your level of debate revolves around 'lol' and teenage twitter 'bantz' then good luck to you. As I say, you have no understanding of the game, and you've displayed it throughout the thread.


    Stop... please stop... you're making my sides split... it's like talking to a child (and not a particularly old one) ahahaha!!!

    Read what I've written instead of what you want me to have written. The answers are all there. Make a cup of coffee and take your time lol.

    Can we go back to discussing international rugby now please?

    Btw I thought you'd said you'd had your final word on this lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    I find myself in agreement with this position. Artificial creations either through padding out Ireland teams with established players through the grandparent rule or like ideas such as the proposed 'Celtic' nations serve to highlight the lack of the broader appeal of the game in the UK as opposed to helping it.

    The general public aren't stupid and are much more knowledgeable on sport then times gone by. A Scotsman or Irishman isn't going to be conned by a few SL players or NRL players having a bit of a bash for the World Cup or anything else. The game is where it is - only established as a minor sport in these areas with a very 'grassroots' presence. There is nothing wrong with that and encouraged the right way the game can grow but it won't happen overnight. Wales is starting to see the game grow through growth at the right level.

    Importing 'stars' to create some just stinks of desperation and short cut mechanisms that the game usually wants to take and ends up losing credibility with; moreso when some of these players then bugger off to play for England or Australia - total farce.
    I think this is interesting mate, and I'm of the opinion that the break up of GB in the 90s didn't really help the game too much because there simply weren't enough players to go around 3 national sides in Britain. This is why we've ended up with imports playing for Scotland and a slow but noticeable decline in interest towards the England team because at least those people that were interested in RL in Wales and Scotland had a national side that was competitive and was half decent unlike now where they're fairly mediocre to be kind. I don't agree with the premise that GB was 'England in all but name' and the badge we wore until the Lions rebranding had the rose, thistle and daffodil on to represent that it was the side of all three nations. We had loads of brilliant Welsh talent come over from Union like Davies, Devereux, Moriarty, Bateman etc 30 years ago and I think the fact that we had a strong GB team softened the obvious blow that not being able to represent Wales at RU must have been for them. They would have known they were following in the footsteps of the likes of Clive Sullivan (the first black captain in any sport here), David Watkins, John Mantle, Phil Ford etc and would have known that the Ashes series here and the Lions tours to Australia were big deals played in front of big crowds. We lost alot when we moved away from that, because GB had history and gravitas and anyone was eligble if they qualified. GB has always been dominated by English players, but that's an inevitability really. Nowadays we're trying to find people to fill three national sides and its all very artificial, and no surprises that the public sees through it.

    I'm of the opinion that if the grassroots work can be done it may uncover some gems outside of the Northern heartlands, and those gems will inevitably find their way to leading Super League clubs. However, the Crusaders fiasco showed that a club wasn't going to be supported in Wales beyond the initial curiosity phase, and we also took the first 5 Magic Weekends to Cardiff and Edinburgh, as well as Challenge Cup Finals when Wembley was being rebuilt, but did any spike in popularity occur in those areas as a result. I haven't spotted much although I may be wrong. It's a strange concept to have a national side in a sport that doesn't have a professional comp in it, but that's what we're doing, trying to create interest in areas off the back of national sides that rarely play, with no club system worth a jot underneath it. Players that come through should be good enough to play for GB and potentially win Ashes series and World Cups as Welshmen and Scots, but now they'll only be good players in poor national sides. I think we got it wrong, and I think Team GB in the Olympics is a great example of how people of the 4 nations can represent their identity and their nations happily within a greater and more powerful unit that can compete at a world level collectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I think this is interesting mate, and I'm of the opinion that the break up of GB in the 90s didn't really help the game too much because there simply weren't enough players to go around 3 national sides in Britain. This is why we've ended up with imports playing for Scotland and a slow but noticeable decline in interest towards the England team because at least those people that were interested in RL in Wales and Scotland had a national side that was competitive and was half decent unlike now where they're fairly mediocre to be kind. I don't agree with the premise that GB was 'England in all but name' and the badge we wore until the Lions rebranding had the rose, thistle and daffodil on to represent that it was the side of all three nations. We had loads of brilliant Welsh talent come over from Union like Davies, Devereux, Moriarty, Bateman etc 30 years ago and I think the fact that we had a strong GB team softened the obvious blow that not being able to represent Wales at RU must have been for them. They would have known they were following in the footsteps of the likes of Clive Sullivan (the first black captain in any sport here), David Watkins, John Mantle, Phil Ford etc and would have known that the Ashes series here and the Lions tours to Australia were big deals played in front of big crowds. We lost alot when we moved away from that, because GB had history and gravitas and anyone was eligble if they qualified. GB has always been dominated by English players, but that's an inevitability really. Nowadays we're trying to find people to fill three national sides and its all very artificial, and no surprises that the public sees through it.

    I'm of the opinion that if the grassroots work can be done it may uncover some gems outside of the Northern heartlands, and those gems will inevitably find their way to leading Super League clubs. However, the Crusaders fiasco showed that a club wasn't going to be supported in Wales beyond the initial curiosity phase, and we also took the first 5 Magic Weekends to Cardiff and Edinburgh, as well as Challenge Cup Finals when Wembley was being rebuilt, but did any spike in popularity occur in those areas as a result. I haven't spotted much although I may be wrong. It's a strange concept to have a national side in a sport that doesn't have a professional comp in it, but that's what we're doing, trying to create interest in areas off the back of national sides that rarely play, with no club system worth a jot underneath it. Players that come through should be good enough to play for GB and potentially win Ashes series and World Cups as Welshmen and Scots, but now they'll only be good players in poor national sides. I think we got it wrong, and I think Team GB in the Olympics is a great example of how people of the 4 nations can represent their identity and their nations happily within a greater and more powerful unit that can compete at a world level collectively.
    Now we're coming to the rub . Remember when I made the comment about Anglocentrism? That old bulldog spirit dies hard, eh?

    I'd love to know what the four nations are too... because the last time I looked, Ireland wasn't part of GB.

    It's amazing that you think national sides representing, y'know, the nations of England, Scotland and Wales are artificial whilst one representing an artificial imperialist entity which isn't, umm, a nation isn't.

    From a Welsh point-of-view, better to die on our feet with a sketchy national team that represents Wales than live on our knees as part of something foisted upon us.

    But I don't imagine you'll understand the reasons a Welshman would say that.

    At least you are talking about international rugby though. Phew.
    Last edited by GDPR Redacted; 7th December 2020 at 15:49.

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    Now we're coming to the rub . Remember when I made the comment about Anglocentrism? That old bulldog spirit dies hard, eh? I'd love to know what the four nations are too... because the last time I looked, Ireland wasn't part of GB.

    Last time I looked Northern Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom, and if you knew your RL history you'd know that in the 90s the Lions were called the British Isles XIII to incorporate NI whereas before that GB merely represented the 3 nations of GB, as seen by the badge representing all three nations and the blue and red vees on the shirt to represent them both. Much like Team GB in the Olympics is GB & NI. I haven't mentioned Ireland in any post, no idea why you've thought I have.

    It's amazing that you think national sides representing, y'know, the nations of England, Scotland and Wales are artificial whilst one representing an artificial imperialist entity isn't, umm, a nation.
    I didn't say national sides representing Wales and Scotland are artificial, I said the way we are trying to fill them with players that aren't Welsh or Scottish was artificial. You're big on people reading things properly, have a try yourself. Wales have had a national side for ages as I've repeatedly said, and it got tests against the Kangaroos regularly when they toured. I'm in favour of national sides, I'm also in favour of a GB side that can compete with Australia and give the sport something unique that other sports cannot provide. GB was unique to RL, everyone knew what you meant when you said Great Britain, and in a world where RL struggles for recognition it was a thing we had that got us instant recognition and something unique.

    From a Welsh point-of-view, better to die on our knees with a sketchy national team that represents Wales than stand on two feet as part of something foisted upon us
    Did Clive Griffiths, John Mantle, Phil Ford, John Devereux, Allan Bateman, Jonathan Davies etc play for GB at gun point?

    But I don't imagine you'll understand the reasons a Welshman would say that.
    No, no idea at all. I'm not from a Liverpool family with loads of Welsh and Irish blood in it. I don't have an Auntie and Uncle who owned a hotel on Anglesea for decades, I don't have a cousin who lives in Llandudno, I don't have another Auntie who lives nearby, I haven't been going to Wales regularly for 40 years visiting them and other relatives, and I never discuss RU, RL, politics and independence with any of them ever. I also didn't share a house with a lad from Neath at uni who I've been mates with for twenty years and visit regularly etc. In fact, no idea where Wales even is, sorry. I must be one of those people that thinks everyone different from me is an ignorant idiot who I can lazily and insultingly stereotype on a public forum.

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    The bit reflecting on holding Magic Weekends in Cardiff not having seen any upsurge in interest in rugby league 140 miles away in Wrexham lol! Sorry but that is outstandingly epic!!!

    I mean, how ungrateful were we that Magic Weekend being held over 3h30 away didn't see a swell of interest in the Crusaders?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Now we're coming to the rub . Remember when I made the comment about Anglocentrism? That old bulldog spirit dies hard, eh? I'd love to know what the four nations are too... because the last time I looked, Ireland wasn't part of GB.

    Last time I looked Northern Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom, and if you knew your RL history you'd know that in the 90s the Lions were called the British Isles XIII to incorporate NI whereas before that GB merely represented the 3 nations of GB, as seen by the badge representing all three nations and the blue and red vees on the shirt to represent them both. Much like Team GB in the Olympics is GB & NI. I haven't mentioned Ireland in any post, no idea why you've thought I have.

    It's amazing that you think national sides representing, y'know, the nations of England, Scotland and Wales are artificial whilst one representing an artificial imperialist entity isn't, umm, a nation.
    I didn't say national sides representing Wales and Scotland are artificial, I said the way we are trying to fill them with players that aren't Welsh or Scottish was artificial. You're big on people reading things properly, have a try yourself. Wales have had a national side for ages as I've repeatedly said, and it got tests against the Kangaroos regularly when they toured. I'm in favour of national sides, I'm also in favour of a GB side that can compete with Australia and give the sport something unique that other sports cannot provide. GB was unique to RL, everyone knew what you meant when you said Great Britain, and in a world where RL struggles for recognition it was a thing we had that got us instant recognition and something unique.

    From a Welsh point-of-view, better to die on our knees with a sketchy national team that represents Wales than stand on two feet as part of something foisted upon us
    Did Clive Griffiths, John Mantle, Phil Ford, John Devereux, Allan Bateman, Jonathan Davies etc play for GB at gun point?

    But I don't imagine you'll understand the reasons a Welshman would say that.
    No, no idea at all. I'm not from a Liverpool family with loads of Welsh and Irish blood in it. I don't have an Auntie and Uncle who owned a hotel on Anglesea for decades, I don't have a cousin who lives in Llandudno, I don't have another Auntie who lives nearby, I haven't been going to Wales regularly for 40 years visiting them and other relatives, and I never discuss RU, RL, politics and independence with any of them ever. I also didn't share a house with a lad from Neath at uni who I've been mates with for twenty years and visit regularly etc. In fact, no idea where Wales even is, sorry. I must be one of those people that thinks everyone different from me is an ignorant idiot who I can lazily and insultingly stereotype on a public forum.
    1. You don't genuinely think an apartheid statelet carved out of another nation is a nation, do you? And you question my knowledge of history lol? And in any case, the Six Counties still aren't part of GB.

    2. GB isn't a nation and therefore it isn't a national team.

    3. You know full well that's not what I'm getting at though I'd question how Welsh anyone choosing to play for GB and therefore identify as British feels.

    4. No, you just think Cardiff and Wrexham are close enough to have a knock on effect to each other in terms of building sporting presence. AngleseY (not Anglesey) and Llandudno... and you reckon you don't go down the road of stereotypes?

    You couldn't make this up lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Heretic View Post
    The bit reflecting on holding Magic Weekends in Cardiff not having seen any upsurge in interest in rugby league 140 miles away in Wrexham lol! Sorry but that is outstandingly epic!!!

    I mean, how ungrateful were we that Magic Weekend being held over 3h30 away didn't see a swell of interest in the Crusaders?!?
    Yep, they didn't play in Bridgend when the first Magic Weekends were held 20 miles away in Cardiff in 2007 and 2008. My mistake.

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    You don't genuinely think an apartheid statelet carved out of another nation is a nation, do you? And you question my knowledge of history lol? And in any case, the Six Counties still aren't part of GB.
    Never said they were, I said they that the team was called the British Isles XIII when incorporating them. I do know the difference between GB and the UK, thanks, and I'll be perfectly happy if Ireland is united one day, I don't have a dog in the fight unlike you obviously.

    GB isn't a nation and therefore it isn't a national team
    That's not relevant. GB play international RL, whether it's a nation or a group of nations or an imperialist abomination is irrelevant, they've played as a concept for a century and it gave RL an identity.

    You know full well that's not what I'm getting at though I'd question how Welsh anyone choosing to play for GB and therefore identify as British feels.
    That's just your opinion, others will differ and have differed by happily pulling on the GB jumper whilst still being proud of their identity.

    No, you just think Cardiff and Wrexham are close enough to have a knock on effect to each other in terms of building sporting presence. AngleseY (not Anglesey) and Llandudno... and you reckon you don't go down the road of stereotypes?
    No, I think Cardiff and Bridgend are close enough, and I reckon you do as well. And just because my phone autocorrects something and I didn't notice, it doesn't negate what I said which I notice you've overlooked. I have loads of connections with Wales, you assumed I didn't, and when I corrected you you've chosen to point out a spelling mistake. Bravo, you win.

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    We're done, apologies to all for derailing and getting into a stupid argument.

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