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Thread: MOM v Wigan

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Our attack is the best in Superleague we have the most tries, tackle busts, clean breaks by significant margins than any other teams. This year the opposition have targeted Lomax and Walmsley a lot more but we still have scored more than everyone albeit in different ways. Its not a team of individuals this season the team are playing as one, Lomax has only scored a few tries this season but he has created many.
    This may be true but we rarely get our wingers in space with ball in hand. This is particularly a problem in the big games. We lacked creativity and guile throughout most of Friday Match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasgowsaint View Post
    This may be true but we rarely get our wingers in space with ball in hand. This is particularly a problem in the big games. We lacked creativity and guile throughout most of Friday Match.

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    I don't think its a simple play that you can switch on and off, defences are much tighter these days especially 10 metres either side of the ruck. It gets worse when the ref allows a slow PTB and an 8 metres instead of ten, the game is about metres and momentum which means a lot of team operate with a flat attack to bust or bend the line.

    Saints have tried lining up more deeply and throwing out a longer pass but most oppositions are smart and stop any second phase with Coote at the back. We really need a modern but traditional creative scrum half in what we think will be Doddy but for him his lack of experience means he may need that extra second or metre, to give him that the majority of the time the forwards need to get him on the front foot.

    In my opinion last season the opposition defences were below par and we got to do that open play more quickly in the first half of the season then it got tougher and tighter in the big games. This season we only open up when the hard work is done against tighter defences, like I said we are the best attacking team in Superleague, it may not look like that because we are doing it in a different way.

    For me its fascinating how our players are evolving into a much tougher unit despite quite a few players now past there prime, if our new 3 forwards are a 100% success I can see us breaking up that defensive line early to open up play again. COYS

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I don't think its a simple play that you can switch on and off, defences are much tighter these days especially 10 metres either side of the ruck. It gets worse when the ref allows a slow PTB and an 8 metres instead of ten, the game is about metres and momentum which means a lot of team operate with a flat attack to bust or bend the line.

    Saints have tried lining up more deeply and throwing out a longer pass but most oppositions are smart and stop any second phase with Coote at the back. We really need a modern but traditional creative scrum half in what we think will be Doddy but for him his lack of experience means he may need that extra second or metre, to give him that the majority of the time the forwards need to get him on the front foot.

    In my opinion last season the opposition defences were below par and we got to do that open play more quickly in the first half of the season then it got tougher and tighter in the big games. This season we only open up when the hard work is done against tighter defences, like I said we are the best attacking team in Superleague, it may not look like that because we are doing it in a different way.

    For me its fascinating how our players are evolving into a much tougher unit despite quite a few players now past there prime, if our new 3 forwards are a 100% success I can see us breaking up that defensive line early to open up play again. COYS
    Bottom line is wigan got their wingers in space with ball in hand 3 or 4 times in that match despite them having a fraction of attacking possession. Despite us having an overwhelming weight of possession we struggled to create anything.

    I don't mean to sound negative as the vast majority of our performance was utterly magnificent. But the fact remains our back line did not look capable of cracking that wigan defence. If wwe had lost the Match as easily could have happened, there would have been a big thread about our attack. The positive for me is that we won the title yet there is still big room for improvement. Hopefully our new signings will help greatly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasgowsaint View Post
    Bottom line is wigan got their wingers in space with ball in hand 3 or 4 times in that match despite them having a fraction of attacking possession. Despite us having an overwhelming weight of possession we struggled to create anything.

    I don't mean to sound negative as the vast majority of our performance was utterly magnificent. But the fact remains our back line did not look capable of cracking that wigan defence. If wwe had lost the Match as easily could have happened, there would have been a big thread about our attack. The positive for me is that we won the title yet there is still big room for improvement. Hopefully our new signings will help greatly

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    Exactly. It is a time to be happy, and bottom line.......we won. BUT, if Hardaker kicks that goal to make it 6-4 and we lose we would be fuming now that we had enough ball and field position in that first 20 minutes to have scored at least 2 tries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasgowsaint View Post
    Bottom line is wigan got their wingers in space with ball in hand 3 or 4 times in that match despite them having a fraction of attacking possession. Despite us having an overwhelming weight of possession we struggled to create anything.

    I don't mean to sound negative as the vast majority of our performance was utterly magnificent. But the fact remains our back line did not look capable of cracking that wigan defence. If wwe had lost the Match as easily could have happened, there would have been a big thread about our attack. The positive for me is that we won the title yet there is still big room for improvement. Hopefully our new signings will help greatly

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    We don't have the half backs with the same creativity of Leuluai and Hastings to get French looping round the back to create the extra man on the edge. They only managed the play on those 4 occasions, we knew what was coming but we had a sliding defence to cover 3 of those. Usually our centre and wing hold position with Lomax + Coote sliding on the left and Fages + Coote on the right. The weakness is Naiqama jumps up too quick.

    Despite knowing that Goon play its not really a productive one, our wingers get a lot more scoring opportunities by over 2:1. Bibby 2, Burgess 4, Manfredi 3, ....... Makinson 6, Grace 10, Welsby 4.
    Last edited by STIDDY; 29th November 2020 at 11:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasgowsaint View Post
    Bottom line is wigan got their wingers in space with ball in hand 3 or 4 times in that match despite them having a fraction of attacking possession. Despite us having an overwhelming weight of possession we struggled to create anything.

    I don't mean to sound negative as the vast majority of our performance was utterly magnificent. But the fact remains our back line did not look capable of cracking that wigan defence. If wwe had lost the Match as easily could have happened, there would have been a big thread about our attack. The positive for me is that we won the title yet there is still big room for improvement. Hopefully our new signings will help greatly

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    I think we gambled on playing a highly compressed defensive line with very aggressive line speed to combat Wigan's physicality. When you do that every now and then your opponents will be able to get outside you, but on the whole it was a trade off that worked and a risk that I think we took knowingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I think we gambled on playing a highly compressed defensive line with very aggressive line speed to combat Wigan's physicality. When you do that every now and then your opponents will be able to get outside you, but on the whole it was a trade off that worked and a risk that I think we took knowingly.
    Spot on. The flip side of the complete pack domination was a bit more room on the edges for them.

    You have to admire the conditioning of the Wigan lads. To put up with that amount of presure against a dominant pack is genuinely remarkable.

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    If we did it as a counter to Wigan`s aggressive pack tactics then on another day they would be two scores ahead.
    Grace banjoed French ball and all, then pressured him enough that the pass went into touch/Bibby overran and another time the pass was high, momentum lost and the cover got there to put Bibby in touch. Without Grace`s acceleration and tackling technique two of them were tries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    If we did it as a counter to Wigan`s aggressive pack tactics then on another day they would be two scores ahead.
    Grace banjoed French ball and all, then pressured him enough that the pass went into touch/Bibby overran and another time the pass was high, momentum lost and the cover got there to put Bibby in touch. Without Grace`s acceleration and tackling technique two of them were tries.
    Grace's defensive effort was outstanding. That hit on French was excellent, he's gone from being a suspect defender to a pretty good one. He also looks to have developed his physique well and kept his pace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    If we did it as a counter to Wigan`s aggressive pack tactics then on another day they would be two scores ahead.
    Grace banjoed French ball and all, then pressured him enough that the pass went into touch/Bibby overran and another time the pass was high, momentum lost and the cover got there to put Bibby in touch. Without Grace`s acceleration and tackling technique two of them were tries.
    Not to mention when we held them up over the line

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    If we did it as a counter to Wigan`s aggressive pack tactics then on another day they would be two scores ahead.
    Grace banjoed French ball and all, then pressured him enough that the pass went into touch/Bibby overran and another time the pass was high, momentum lost and the cover got there to put Bibby in touch. Without Grace`s acceleration and tackling technique two of them were tries.
    He was also coaching Welsby on when and who to tackle when they got us on the edge, Welsby was a fraction too late on one of them and that was when Bibby scored that try. I think the defence reading by Grace has improved under Woolf's coaching, Grace has put in some big hits with a good tackling (Roby Type) technique on bigger men this season.

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    I thought that Roby was immense. How many times do we say this? He seems to get quicker. Bentley was fantastic getting in their faces, how many high shots did he take? Regan Grace was superb, really fronted up. Proud of all the team which includes all coaching and backroom personnel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Grace's defensive effort was outstanding. That hit on French was excellent, he's gone from being a suspect defender to a pretty good one. He also looks to have developed his physique well and kept his pace.
    Yeah he has beefed up a bit, also hope we have not got the same conditioners that turned Pryce and Turner from speedsters to specimens.

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    He was also coaching Welsby on when and who to tackle when they got us on the edge, Welsby was a fraction too late on one of them and that was when Bibby scored that try. I think the defence reading by Grace has improved under Woolf's coaching, Grace has put in some big hits with a good tackling (Roby Type) technique on bigger men this season.
    Yeah have said a few times Ollie Holmes, Leuluai, Robes and Johnny Lomax have the best tackling techniques in SL, he has learnt how a lightweight should tackle from our two. Though I think that hit on Charnley early last season/late the season before was the start of his defensive confidence. Anyone notice his catching the high ball change ? He is wrapping his leg from behind onto the landing leg, very Vieversesque, without the kick out, that is probably banned now!! Well done Regan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glasgowsaint View Post
    Not to mention when we held them up over the line

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    Yeah that was Hardaker on the other side, Fages did that one.
    If we kept Richardson you get a brilliant kicking game but does he really offer more than Theo close to their line?
    Hardaker scores that with Richardson there, and Greenwood had a field day on that RHS last time he played for us against Wigan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    If we did it as a counter to Wigan`s aggressive pack tactics then on another day they would be two scores ahead.
    Grace banjoed French ball and all, then pressured him enough that the pass went into touch/Bibby overran and another time the pass was high, momentum lost and the cover got there to put Bibby in touch. Without Grace`s acceleration and tackling technique two of them were tries.
    And if we didn’t do it we could have been physically dominated and ended 3 or 4 scores behind. We did it, it worked, we won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Yeah that was Hardaker on the other side, Fages did that one.
    If we kept Richardson you get a brilliant kicking game but does he really offer more than Theo close to their line?
    Hardaker scores that with Richardson there, and Greenwood had a field day on that RHS last time he played for us against Wigan.
    That was something else I noticed in the changes to our defence this season, when the opposition player is over the line with players on him its usually Fages and Coote who slide under the body so that the ball is held up and much more difficult to ground, that's happened a lot more this season. The Coote one on Hardaker was a great example of that.

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    I do agree that our attack needs to be a bit more creative but Wigan’s goal line defence was also outstanding. On Friday we seemed a bit reluctant to push the pass as the big focus from the previous meeting seemed to be completing sets

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    I've been lucky enough to witness my team provide some great moments. I was there for Wide to West, I was there for Paul Dickov's 95th minute equaliser at Wembley and I was at the Etihad when Sergio Aguero won the title. None of those moments would have happened if we'd done the job beforehand. City's crapness led to the Dickov situation and both goals came about due to City not winning games they were expected to win comfortably. So, the reality is that with hindsight you'd never have had it any other way. During the actual game, though, well that's different. :-)

    Still to this day, I cannot watch any parts of those City games beforehand, because it opens up memories of how bad I felt at the time. Last night, when I was watching highlights and re-runs galore, I couldn't really watch the Hardaker penalty and be happy that he missed it. It brought back how I felt at the time. Something in me still thought he was going to knock it over.

    But, yes, apart from one notable member, everyone seems to have cottoned on now that a No.7 is the missing link. If we could just get one then I honestly think we would be unstoppable. As much as people may think I hate Theo Fages, this is not the case. My belief all along is that he's playing a role that his game is not suited to. He isn't a scrum half. I'm also one who is not a massive lover of Jonny Lomax as a 6. I think he's a fine player, but he's a better full back than stand off, for me. However, Coote is a better full back than Jonny.

    I'm very happy with how we've recruited up front and we've got the best three quarter line in the league, which just needs bringing into the game a bit more. We just now need somebody with an intelligent passing and thinking game around the opposition line. Bring a natural half back in and we could dominate for years.

    What would you like to see more of from your 6? I thought in a game that was so tight and carrying the injured alex Walmsley, the constant threat he provided running the ball for just short of 200m (198) was massive for the team as well as a few nice kicks. But each to their own.

    I have said it before I feel for some of our team will we ever be happy? But here are the facts back to back champs, 2/3 league leaders shields and particularly around the halves the best attack for the last 2 years (one of which having most assists in the league this season)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    And if we didn’t do it we could have been physically dominated and ended 3 or 4 scores behind. We did it, it worked, we won.
    Not disagreeing Dux, win by any means and ultimately our tactics proved correct.
    I was worried how many times Wigan stripped us on the left, without Regan`s intervention we were up the creek, I think with Percy there it would maybe have been better. Presently still thrilled to bits and it has gone along way to easing the 2007-2011 memories.
    Being greedy already, hoping for the LLS, CC, three in a row and if it is played WCC. Our young fellas will be better for their blooding this year and we potentially have another line breaking prop to help Big Al, Santa has not even arrived yet there could be a big surprise as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Posted on another thread I thought Fages was very good and a little more elusive, his defense as always was brilliant, he made mistakes but so did a few they are human. Coote dropped one and when he dropped the second only his turning his back made it not knock on forward.
    Dare I say it Welsby was at fault for their try and earlier he bit in only for Regan to banjo French ball and all, Regan also pressurised when French put a pass in touch/Bibby overran it, when Jack turned in again. That is not taking anything away from Welsby he will be immortalised with that try. It is hard to fault any player or team in a game of such intensity, I think we are all glad we won one in that style, we have been on the end of too many defeats.
    I hate being critical after a game like that every player gave everything and fages tackled everything and gave 100% effort

    However imo he was poor, he dropped the ball with no around him in the lead up to their try, gave away what could have been a match costing penalty and his kicking game is very average

    As I said he gives his all, he is totally committed but we do need a better kicking option from a player in his position especially given our current game plan and I don't expect him to be a starter from next season

    As for MOTM Bentley for me , his work rate was incredible,he lead our kick chase, led our line and his aggression and all round "dog" really helped upset wigan

    All the players stood up and were counted on the weekend and we can't ask for anything more

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    Robes for me. I feel sorry him. So many times he could win man of the match, but doesn't. Simply because Robes does what Robes does, no-one tends to see it as exceptional, because he does it week in week out.
    Loyal and true, not a glory hunter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    I hate being critical after a game like that every player gave everything and fages tackled everything and gave 100% effort

    However imo he was poor, he dropped the ball with no around him in the lead up to their try, gave away what could have been a match costing penalty and his kicking game is very average

    As I said he gives his all, he is totally committed but we do need a better kicking option from a player in his position especially given our current game plan and I don't expect him to be a starter from next season

    As for MOTM Bentley for me , his work rate was incredible,he lead our kick chase, led our line and his aggression and all round "dog" really helped upset wigan

    All the players stood up and were counted on the weekend and we can't ask for anything more
    I agree with this. I thought Fages was pretty poor and had Saints lost there would have been some critical voices on here. His kicking game is proving pretty poor in these games and I've yet to see him really crack a game open in the big games; he looks a pretty predictable player a kind of lesser version of Paul Deacon at times. I don't dislike Fages as he has plenty of upsides: guts, tackling ability and generally he is a more than serviceable scrum half. Its just that he does'nt seem a real game changer and unlikely to be anything more than a 6.5/7 out of 10 performer in the big games.

    The players I thought were outstanding were Bentley and Roby. Without Bentley's gusto and dog we would'nt have won and Roby is just the gift that keeps giving. His steady head and quality distribution were key. He rarely ever makes bad decisions. The kicks (bar one) from dummy half also helped and got Saints important territory more than a few times.

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    Results dictate the impression of a performance in big games quite a lot I think. We won, so the performance was first class, but I doubt a single person on here would have congratulated the coach for his tactics had Hardaker not hit the bar and we’d lost 6-2 or had he kicked the late pen and we’d lost 6-4. We’d have all complained about our inability to score at least one try in that opening twenty when we were all over them, and the amazing energy and commitment that every one of our lads put in would have been secondary I reckon.

    And that’s the thing for me, the tactics only worked because Hardaker missed two kicks and we then scored the most amazingly fortuitous try in Grand Final history. Would I have wanted it any other way, hell no, it was the best way to win a game ever and Wiganers will be having nightmares about it for years, but the tactics didn’t work in terms of them winning us the game. They worked in keeping us in a game against a side we could have put away early, and because we didn’t put them away early on the tactics then became massively important in keeping us in a game that turned into a slugfest that suited Wigan. To play a big game against Wigan the way we played it from 20-80mins was crucial because at 0-0 we needed to defend with discipline and match them up front for an hour, but we’re forgetting the first 20 when we could have negated the need for us to play that way for the next hour by being 10 or 12-0 up and forcing them to take chances.

    Wolfe gets credit from me for instilling a toughness in us that meant we could go toe to toe with Wigan in the trenches and to defend for our lives on the biggest stage, but he gets a bit of stick for not having the ambition to think we could win the game another way. Leeds did a number on Wigan in the Cup SF, so I’m refusing to believe that scoring a try against Adrian Lam’s Wigan is some impossible task. We never looked like scoring bar for one Roby scoot in the second half, and let’s be honest, which is easier, having a bit of creativity and sticking the ball over the line when you have them on the ropes, or sticking your body on the line for 80 minutes in the expectation that that’s the only way to beat Wigan?

    And at the end of the day, doing all of that work, expending all of that effort, all of that willpower, all of that emotion and desire for 80 minutes would have counted for nothing had Hardaker kicked a conversion or a penalty. Thank God it did, thank God that the 17 players who wore our shirt with pride and gave us every ounce of sweat and effort in their bodies didn’t end up walking off that pitch devastated because the tactics saw us lose 6-2 or 6-4, because that would have been heartbreaking. The tactics kept us in the game because we didn’t really have the ambition to win the game, and amidst the euphoria and ecstasy of the one of the best nights we’ll ever have following this club we have to admit that I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
    I hate being critical after a game like that every player gave everything and fages tackled everything and gave 100% effort

    However imo he was poor, he dropped the ball with no around him in the lead up to their try, gave away what could have been a match costing penalty and his kicking game is very average

    As I said he gives his all, he is totally committed but we do need a better kicking option from a player in his position especially given our current game plan and I don't expect him to be a starter from next season

    As for MOTM Bentley for me , his work rate was incredible,he lead our kick chase, led our line and his aggression and all round "dog" really helped upset wigan

    All the players stood up and were counted on the weekend and we can't ask for anything more
    I thought he was under the most pressure alongside Lomax because the Goons wanted to stop our distribution at source, for me he had his hands on the ball (Roby exception) more than anybody else in our side and got caught in 2 minds at times. The kicking game from both sides were pretty average overall especially over the last 5 metres, the defences were well organised on that front.

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    Fear the vee. Your right, Naiqama very rarely makes a clean break and has a bad habit of flying in only to fly past his objective. He is a tough cookie but is never going to win matches with sheer brilliance. It would not bother me if he was replaced.

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