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Thread: 21 man squad v Catalans

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    You are probably right saying A good game at centre. It's just the only time I remember him playing well, though I think he did get a couple of tries on the right wing.
    Yes he did and credit to him for being on hand to run them in. Big off-season for Jack Welsby I think, decisions to be sorted out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    He played a lot of centre at Bradford. For me he has very little in attack, doesn't often break the line and doesn't pass, but defensively he is a machine. Hopefully they will develop the attack side during pre season.
    It's what might stop his star ascending even higher I reckon. He's all the things you say but at the top level unless you're a beast you need something else. Who knows he's had an excellent development season.


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    Biggest decision is who plays centre. Like others I'm firmly in the Simm camp, who I think you can tell is a true centre as opposed to Welsby who isn't (I do rate Welsby but and disagree with the stick he gets but that's a separate issue). Specifically for this game Simm appears to be the bigger of the two, and has a natural physicality to his game. Whilst Falou is always going to be a danger man, I feel more confident Simm having a go against him than Welsby.

    As for the bench, I can see us going with Peyroux over Smith. Peyroux offers something different in attack to our other forwards, which could be useful if it's a tight game. Smith still looks too lightweight for me and I could only see him coming on if the game is already in the bag. Shame we didn't get to see more of Eaves, who I thought looked very good against Salford - I can see him overtaking Smith in the pecking order next year

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    Peyroux is too good to leave out of the 17.I would go with either him or Bentley at centre and play smith off the bench.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    Not that it would happen and just another possibility but I feel Peyroux has been missed/under utilised this year and one way to bring him in would be putting Bentley at centre where he has played well for us before.

    Coote
    Makinson
    Naiqama
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    Grace
    Lomax
    Fages
    Graham
    Roby
    Walmsley
    Taia
    Peyroux
    Knowles

    LMS, Lees, Amor, Smith

    Thinking along the same lines but slightly different, maybe Taia at centre and Bentley and Peyroux at 2nd row

    It wont happen but, although it was a few seasons ago, when Taia played centre for Catalan he was excellent

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintnickle View Post
    Peyroux is too good to leave out of the 17.I would go with either him or Bentley at centre and play smith off the bench.
    Can't agree with this at all - Peyroux and Bentley are both poor defensively at centre and we want both in the pack against Catalans.

    I can see the argument for Welsby and for Simm and think it is a tougher call than many make it seem. I think Welsby is deceptively big/strong, I'd actually have him as bigger than Simm (might be wrong). I don't think there would be much in it defensively, Simm is clearly a more natural attacking centre (albeit played most of his rugby at right centre) but Welsby covers more positions if we pick up knocks.

    On balance I'd be going with Welsby I think but it's a tough one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintnickle View Post
    Peyroux is too good to leave out of the 17.I would go with either him or Bentley at centre and play smith off the bench.
    Peyroux not for me especially at centre. Bentley will be nailed on in the second row. Deserves to play in that position.

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    Batchelor is a tall lad, very tall. Used to playing centre may mitigate Falou in the air. I don't think Welsby should be exposed there again. Simm would not have the pressure on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    Batchelor is a tall lad, very tall. Used to playing centre may mitigate Falou in the air. I don't think Welsby should be exposed there again. Simm would not have the pressure on him.
    I have quite like Batchelor in the forwards but would be concerned if he was at centre. Nobody is going to compete with Falou. Lets face it we are weak at centre.

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    Simm for me. Good defender and a natural centre. You canít go into a game worrying about what might happen. The most experienced centre could have a stinker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Simm for me. Good defender and a natural centre. You canít go into a game worrying about what might happen. The most experienced centre could have a stinker
    I think this whole issue is being over-thought. Simm is in his 2nd season having played once in a scratch side last year. He's played a handful of games this year. His game nouse since his first game this year has improved considerably, he can already say he's scored a hat trick for the club he supported as a lad and who his Grand Dad served with distinction, not many of us will ever be able to claim that. Throughout this year even though naturally the best centre available following the loss of our International centre where normally he wouldn't be considered he's been in and out of the side week on week not having a run at it. There was no reason not to afford him his chance save for KW having alternative ideas about managing our young players. If he was out of his depth then fair enough, but he's not. Is there a big challenge for him this week, hell yes, does that bother me, no. We should play our best centre available in the centre end of.


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    Simm at centre, Batchelor on the bench instead of Peyroux. Peyroux has too many cockups in him. Saints to win by 14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    Majority picks itself.
    I'm in the Simm camp also. Dom on the bench for me.
    Agree. Feel we'll go for Welsby because his defensive reads will be a bit better than Simm but forget that Welsby makes too many indecisive mistakes in other areas of the game. For all the hype has he really shown any evidence that he's better than Simm? sometimes if it looks and talks like a duck then you know the rest. Its like the club are desperate to believe that Welsby is going to show something he has shown repeatedly he isn't so far....

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Agree. Feel we'll go for Welsby because his defensive reads will be a bit better than Simm but forget that Welsby makes too many indecisive mistakes in other areas of the game. For all the hype has he really shown any evidence that he's better than Simm? sometimes if it looks and talks like a duck then you know the rest. Its like the club are desperate to believe that Welsby is going to show something he has shown repeatedly he isn't so far....
    It's not his fault tbf, unfortunately he's not being helped by trying to get him leveraged in anywhere he can. Nobody seems to know where he'll fit. I don't agree with this stuff about playing him anywhere to get experience like Lomax and Wellens in the day. That's why I've already said it's a big close season for him coming up to decide what he wants to develop into then agree a plan. He's had a great deal more chances than anyone else so far. Needs managing and so far I cant see that it has been.

    The reputation all of these lads had as juniors is useless now in effect. It was used up in getting a contract. Now they're expected to start again as pro's and build their career and they all need help doing it. I've asked before but it's not been answered, who specifically works with these younger players in helping them develop themselves and helping them make the right choices for their career? There's a significant investment in them all so it makes no sense to not manage them to best effect. Remember next season there won't be many opportunities, maybe none.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I think this whole issue is being over-thought. Simm is in his 2nd season having played once in a scratch side last year. He's played a handful of games this year. His game nouse since his first game this year has improved considerably, he can already say he's scored a hat trick for the club he supported as a lad and who his Grand Dad served with distinction, not many of us will ever be able to claim that. Throughout this year even though naturally the best centre available following the loss of our International centre where normally he wouldn't be considered he's been in and out of the side week on week not having a run at it. There was no reason not to afford him his chance save for KW having alternative ideas about managing our young players. If he was out of his depth then fair enough, but he's not. Is there a big challenge for him this week, hell yes, does that bother me, no. We should play our best centre available in the centre end of.


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    I agree. Saints shouldn't be worrying about the opposition and focus on picking their strongest available side. Folau will be a handful for whoever is picked to play out there.

    I would actually have Welsby on the interchange- good utility value and can cover many positions. Origin 3 was another example for mine, of why having a back or a pivot on the bench is so important.

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    I can see Aaron Smith on the bench. Coming on against a tiring Catalan pack he would run riot & it would give Roby a rest so he will be fresh for the final against Hull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    It's not his fault tbf, unfortunately he's not being helped by trying to get him leveraged in anywhere he can. Nobody seems to know where he'll fit. I don't agree with this stuff about playing him anywhere to get experience like Lomax and Wellens in the day. That's why I've already said it's a big close season for him coming up to decide what he wants to develop into then agree a plan. He's had a great deal more chances than anyone else so far. Needs managing and so far I cant see that it has been.

    The reputation all of these lads had as juniors is useless now in effect. It was used up in getting a contract. Now they're expected to start again as pro's and build their career and they all need help doing it. I've asked before but it's not been answered, who specifically works with these younger players in helping them develop themselves and helping them make the right choices for their career? There's a significant investment in them all so it makes no sense to not manage them to best effect. Remember next season there won't be many opportunities, maybe none.


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    I'll ignore the first part of this because I would have thought even you were getting bored typing the same thing over & over again.

    In terms of the development of juniors there is a whole set up that would seem to most people to be reasonably successful. It starts with scouting & the carrot of the bi-anual Australian tour. This is followed with the transition to first team level. I could name the successful graduates of the junior set up but can't believe the question is being asked. Bizarrely the question is being asked within the context of a discussion (with contrasting views admittedly) about which juniors should play in a semi final. In specific terms Derek Traynor has the main responsibility but the junior set up is seen as integral to the whole club with Mike Rush in particular having an interest.

    However the answer you probably want is that it's all Woolfe's fault.....

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    Why our people making cases for the likes of Taia, Peyroux or even Batchelor at left centre? Taia is too slow, lateral movement in defence nowhere near good enough for that position, Peyroux jumps out the line and lacks discipline to play there & as for Batchelor...wow. The day we start worrying about Catalan is the day to pack in.

    We wonít and shouldnít start making wholesale changes worrying about the opposition. Bentley has been up there with Walmsley this year on the left edge and deserves that shirt. Itís a straight shoot out between Welsby & Simm. I prefer Simm, strong classy ball carrier and more of a classic centre than Welsby. Iíve watched Welsby for a couple of seasons now and Iíve no idea what his best position is. That said, canít see the rush. Heís developing nicely like many others.


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    I don't understand what is actually in question here. It seems to have shifted from people being concerned about Welsby being some of teacher's pet to now the junior system in general being questioned, which I find utterly ridiculous.

    Over half of our regular 17 have come through our junior system and probably 75% of the squad in total.
    The academy side has contested 4 of the last 6 Grand Finals.
    In the SL era our junior system has produced 3 Man of Steel winners, 3 Harry Sunderland trophy winners and 3 Lance Todd Trophy winners and some of the best players of the last 25 years. (Wellens, Roby, Cunningham, Graham...)
    The 2018 Golden Boot winner was a product of our youth system.
    The latest England squad has 6 players who came through at Saints and the last GB squad tour squad had 4 who came through at Saints.

    Are we forgetting all of that simply because a few people don't agree that Welsby is as good as the club seem to think he is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    It's not his fault tbf, unfortunately he's not being helped by trying to get him leveraged in anywhere he can. Nobody seems to know where he'll fit. I don't agree with this stuff about playing him anywhere to get experience like Lomax and Wellens in the day. That's why I've already said it's a big close season for him coming up to decide what he wants to develop into then agree a plan. He's had a great deal more chances than anyone else so far. Needs managing and so far I cant see that it has been.

    The reputation all of these lads had as juniors is useless now in effect. It was used up in getting a contract. Now they're expected to start again as pro's and build their career and they all need help doing it. I've asked before but it's not been answered, who specifically works with these younger players in helping them develop themselves and helping them make the right choices for their career? There's a significant investment in them all so it makes no sense to not manage them to best effect. Remember next season there won't be many opportunities, maybe none.


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    I’m not certain why you cite the examples of Lomax and Wellens when stating that you are against playing people in different positions to provide experience during the formative stages of their careers. Surely the outcome of that in those two cases is justification for pursuing that approach for backs across the board?

    Turning to your question regarding development of players, this clearly falls to the coaching staff if you are focussing on playing abilities. The nature of what is taught, however, is team-centric and thus clearly linked to the strategy and tactics desired by the coaches. The process might therefore not maximise a players’ potential in certain facets of their game - for example, if a coach wishes to focus on moving the ball wide on the sixth tackle, development of the tactical kicking game would not be as concentrated or deliver the optimum potential for an individual. Nevertheless, by developing those aspects required by coaches to meet team objectives, the player is being developed in a manner that will provide long term career prospects at the club. It is not the responsibility of anyone within a particular club to enhance player abilities that are unsuited to that club’s game plan but which may be in demand elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    I don't understand what is actually in question here. It seems to have shifted from people being concerned about Welsby being some of teacher's pet to now the junior system in general being questioned, which I find utterly ridiculous.

    Over half of our regular 17 have come through our junior system and probably 75% of the squad in total.
    The academy side has contested 4 of the last 6 Grand Finals.
    In the SL era our junior system has produced 3 Man of Steel winners, 3 Harry Sunderland trophy winners and 3 Lance Todd Trophy winners and some of the best players of the last 25 years. (Wellens, Roby, Cunningham, Graham...)
    The 2018 Golden Boot winner was a product of our youth system.
    The latest England squad has 6 players who came through at Saints and the last GB squad tour squad had 4 who came through at Saints.

    Are we forgetting all of that simply because a few people don't agree that Welsby is as good as the club seem to think he is?
    Three, 2019, 2016 and 2015.

    But the rest of your post is pretty spot on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogues Gallery View Post
    Three, 2019, 2016 and 2015.

    But the rest of your post is pretty spot on.
    To be honest I just quickly grabbed the info from here and I've obviously wrongly assumed the "runners up" refer to the losing Grand Finalists.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    To be honest I just quickly grabbed the info from here and I've obviously wrongly assumed the "runners up" refer to the losing Grand Finalists.
    Wikipedia eh slightly more reliable than facebook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    Simm for me. Good defender and a natural centre. You can’t go into a game worrying about what might happen. The most experienced centre could have a stinker
    Spot on.

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