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Thread: Saints Vs Catalan Semi Final

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by notawiginfan View Post
    Think we could be bullied out of the game.
    I think they will still be feeling the effects of their game against Leeds.

    So we just need to hang with them for the first 20 mins or so. Nothing flash, complete our sets, get their pack turned around.

    Then pick up the pace. We should be well rested and I imagine the players will be wanting to get back on the horse after their previous outting against W*gan

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    I feel confident for Friday.My only worry is our ball retention.We were doing well against Wigan until we started loosing the ball.If we can complete and get them playing out from near their try line I fancy us by 10 +.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    Interesting that you think their pack has the measure of ours. I certainly wouldn’t swap, particularly with Micky Mac and Tomkins out.


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    Not as much have the measure of us, but slightly more grunt going forwards, FearTheVee.
    MM does not have Roby`s vision or footwork so he would not have been an issue, yep he can be feared in defence for the thugby but go forward cannot have seen him being a problem and Tomkins has not got the gas he had before his Union attempt.
    It is the go forward of their props, Casty grinds it in all day, Moa can turn up when he wants, Kasiano makes yards for his 7 minutes either side of half time, Bouskets carts it in tough. Big Al goes off? Jammer is still good defensively but has virtually no go forward drive now, Kyle has his year extension, Lees is still trying to get his weight up, LMS makes good yards and has pace through the gap but needs a quick PTB which if Al is off he may not get.
    I sincerely hope I am wrong, my predictions have been worse than AD`s this side of lockdown so there is hope.

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    I reckon we’ll do ‘em. They’ll miss McIlorum, and I can’t see them reproducing that first half performance against Leeds. I also think they have a pretty clear weakness defensively on their edges which I’m hoping we’ll be able to exploit. But I’ll be very interested in how we stand up to the rough stuff, as we’ll need to be tougher if we’re to have a chance of winning the week after.

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    6 match ban in total for Mcilorum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Despondent Dave
    Blobby is a man of style, panache and impeccable taste

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    6 match ban in total for Mcilorum.
    Handy for us that is! Takes some intensity out of their defence.

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    Looking good so far. Still a tough one, but confident we will do them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Would you say Holbrook recognised Fages wasn't a scrum half but got him to play like one, Woolf recognised Fages wasn't a scrum half and gave him a limited role.
    I really want us to give Dodd a lot more time at 7 next season; playing him at 9 whilst Fages continues at 7 is just a waste. If we want to play them both, move Fages to 9 and let Dodd play 7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Not as much have the measure of us, but slightly more grunt going forwards, FearTheVee.
    MM does not have Roby`s vision or footwork so he would not have been an issue, yep he can be feared in defence for the thugby but go forward cannot have seen him being a problem and Tomkins has not got the gas he had before his Union attempt.
    It is the go forward of their props, Casty grinds it in all day, Moa can turn up when he wants, Kasiano makes yards for his 7 minutes either side of half time, Bouskets carts it in tough. Big Al goes off? Jammer is still good defensively but has virtually no go forward drive now, Kyle has his year extension, Lees is still trying to get his weight up, LMS makes good yards and has pace through the gap but needs a quick PTB which if Al is off he may not get.
    I sincerely hope I am wrong, my predictions have been worse than AD`s this side of lockdown so there is hope.
    We should clearly win it going away but there's always the niggling feeling that a team with a decent kicking game can keep turning us round & blunt what we do. The problem being is if they match us in the forwards & out kick us we don't seem to have the capacity to change things so the frustration increases then mistakes creep in.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackbit View Post
    Looking good so far. Still a tough one, but confident we will do them.
    I think we will go all the way. After the way our pack got bullied against Wigan I think they will have a point to prove these next two games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think we will go all the way. After the way our pack got bullied against Wigan I think they will have a point to prove these next two games.
    I’ve read this a few times about being bullied vs Wigan and I’m not sure it’s true really.

    We lost that game on the back of errors, lots of them completely unforced. I read on the Wigan site that Singleton caused Grace to fall apart - what by shouting in his direction after he’d already made his handling error from a drop-out with nobody near him? Give over, Singleton was the least effective forward on the park - his stats were appalling.

    Shouting at wingers and daft head shots late in the game is not bullying. The packs were basically even, ours probably made more yards. The issue was in errors and uncharacteristically bad missed tackles not getting “bullied”.

    In the first 20 mins when we were holding onto the ball we were marching Wigan back and they couldn’t get out of their own half. Both packs were aggressive, we made more errors.


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    Last edited by FearTheVee; 18th November 2020 at 10:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I think we will go all the way. After the way our pack got bullied against Wigan I think they will have a point to prove these next two games.
    Its how we start the game isn't it, that first quarter will be about keeping your opponents pinned in their own half. We need to put lots of kick pressure on Rat Boy, he's known to drop the occasional high bomb, every game we play against him I always want him flattened.

    As for the Catalan forwards I think they will tire in the second quarter, for us as many others have mentioned set completions, patience and cut down the errors is the priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I’ve read this a few times about being bullied vs Wigan and I’m not sure it’s true really.

    We lost that game on the back of errors, lots of them completely unforced. I read on the Wigan site that Singleton caused Grace to fall apart - what by shouting in his direction after he’d already made his handling error from a drop-out with nobody near him? Give over, Singleton was the least effective forward on the park - his stats were appealing.

    Shouting at wingers and daft head shots late in the game is not bullying. The packs were basically even, ours probably made more yards. The issue was in errors and uncharacteristically bad missed tackles not getting “bullied”.

    In the first 20 mins when we were holding onto the ball we were matching Wigan back and they couldn’t get out of their own half. Both packs were aggressive, we made more errors.


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    I agree we just lost concentration made 4 errors and they scored 4 tries on the back of them, we don't get enough of those games with that intensity I think the players will have learnt more from that loss.

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    Think we might be doing Woolf a disservice.Maybe the beefing up of the pack for next year is to give Dodd the time and space to play an expansive game?

    Our biggest problem is we have such a poor kicking game it keeps us pinned down in tight games.Woolf has been missing two of last years key players in Percy and Thommo so we need to be patient.
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    I seem to remember Grace doing more work than normal bringing lots of ball back and so tired and errors crept into his game as with some others. I don't know if the stats bear this out, just what I sensed when watching it live, not seen any re-run.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I seem to remember Grace doing more work than normal bringing lots of ball back and so tired and errors crept into his game as with some others. I don't know if the stats bear this out, just what I sensed when watching it live, not seen any re-run.


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    I think the Wigoon players and similarly Wire put the extra numbers in around the ruck and the dummy half or first receiver Grace and Makinson have very little impact when that happens, sometimes Makinson runs a bit more from deep to hit the line but that has been nullified lately.

    We probably need to do a few more switch plays but when your half backs are on the back foot time and space is not available, we are missing Percival big style for that he is the only one who can change direction and test the defensive line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    Woolf has been missing two of last years key players in Percy and Thommo so we need to be patient.
    I read this stuff alot mate, and it intrigues me. I haven't seen alot of evidence since the lockdown of us missing Percival in an attacking sense. Not because he isn't a very good player, but because we simply don't give our 3 and 4 any ball to run on to in any real consistent way. Surely if our 3 and 4 were big attacking weapons for Woolf he would have a system in place whereby we play a style of RL that gives them opportunities regardless of who is playing there, so that when Percival returns we simply carry on playing that way with greater results. Instead, we either have one of two situations. Either he has decided not to give our left side any ball because Percival is out, which strikes me as unrealistic because you don't change your core beliefs and tactics because of one player. Or the second possibility is that what we are seeing is the exact way that Woolf wants us to play, and so when Percival is back we'll look the same but with a highly talented player getting hardly any ball at that point.

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    weather forecast for Friday is rain all day. Conditions likely to be heavy

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I think the Wigoon players and similarly Wire put the extra numbers in around the ruck and the dummy half or first receiver Grace and Makinson have very little impact when that happens, sometimes Makinson runs a bit more from deep to hit the line but that has been nullified lately.

    We probably need to do a few more switch plays but when your half backs are on the back foot time and space is not available, we are missing Percival big style for that he is the only one who can change direction and test the defensive line.
    But we can't have it both ways, one discussion reflects on how dominant our pack generally is, then another about half backs on the back foot. It's not very often our halves are on the back foot I think it more to do with their choice or instruction not to go to the centres.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I’ve read this a few times about being bullied vs Wigan and I’m not sure it’s true really.

    We lost that game on the back of errors, lots of them completely unforced. I read on the Wigan site that Singleton caused Grace to fall apart - what by shouting in his direction after he’d already made his handling error from a drop-out with nobody near him? Give over, Singleton was the least effective forward on the park - his stats were appalling.

    Shouting at wingers and daft head shots late in the game is not bullying. The packs were basically even, ours probably made more yards. The issue was in errors and uncharacteristically bad missed tackles not getting “bullied”.

    In the first 20 mins when we were holding onto the ball we were marching Wigan back and they couldn’t get out of their own half. Both packs were aggressive, we made more errors.


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    Yeh you're right, I've thought the same tbh.

    Wigan's pack made something like 24m more than ours in total (which may surprise some people how similar the numbers are), largely down to Farrell having a stormer and making a whopping 166m. Clubb - 15m from 3, singleton - 33m from 9 (awful), Powell - something like 25m. Our pack definitely spread the work load more and would've easily made more metres if we didn't keep turning the ball over/making mistakes, all without big Al. For me that was the difference.

    And it may surprise a few as well that Graham was our top metre making forward, gaining twice as many metres as any other prop for us (88 from 12).

    I know stats aren't everything, but they can be quite surprising and give another perspective.

    Personally I think half of wigans pack are absolute dossers, it was evens without Al the other week, with Al I'm confident it'll be a different story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieVonEagle View Post
    Yeh you're right, I've thought the same tbh.

    Wigan's pack made something like 24m more than ours in total (which may surprise some people how similar the numbers are), largely down to Farrell having a stormer and making a whopping 166m. Clubb - 15m from 3, singleton - 33m from 9 (awful), Powell - something like 25m. Our pack definitely spread the work load more and would've easily made more metres if we didn't keep turning the ball over/making mistakes, all without big Al. For me that was the difference.

    And it may surprise a few as well that Graham was our top metre making forward, gaining twice as many metres as any other prop for us (88 from 12).

    I know stats aren't everything, but they can be quite surprising and give another perspective.

    Personally I think half of wigans pack are absolute dossers, it was evens without Al the other week, with Al I'm confident it'll be a different story.

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    It’s not just the metres Walmsley makes, it’s the defenders he attracts. There’s always 3 bringing him down plus another hovering for the offload whereas against Wigan last time it was very rare they had to tackle with more than 2.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    I read this stuff alot mate, and it intrigues me. I haven't seen alot of evidence since the lockdown of us missing Percival in an attacking sense. Not because he isn't a very good player, but because we simply don't give our 3 and 4 any ball to run on to in any real consistent way. Surely if our 3 and 4 were big attacking weapons for Woolf he would have a system in place whereby we play a style of RL that gives them opportunities regardless of who is playing there, so that when Percival returns we simply carry on playing that way with greater results. Instead, we either have one of two situations. Either he has decided not to give our left side any ball because Percival is out, which strikes me as unrealistic because you don't change your core beliefs and tactics because of one player. Or the second possibility is that what we are seeing is the exact way that Woolf wants us to play, and so when Percival is back we'll look the same but with a highly talented player getting hardly any ball at that point.
    This is exactly it, I've posted similarly a minute ago in response to another post. We're simply not, for whatever the reason, passing the ball through the halves to the centres. It has to be by instruction although I do believe it tends to suit the style of Fages and Lomax who might occasionally throw a miss-pass out. I can't see them changing any time soon. It must be massively frustrating to go through a game when you're sole way of getting the ball is to run it out into advancing forwards from your own 10m. Clearly it's being planned for more of the same next year. Percival & Thommo are simply excuses for poor coach options on a whole range of issues.

    I cancelled a few season tickets last time I felt like this, I'm actually at the stage where I'm considering walking away again as I've absolutely no respect for him as a coach. We all like winning of course but my view is he's ruining our club and what it stands for in terms of style, team selections, game management etc so winning isn't at the forefront of my mind. I don't live in StHelens now so make the effort to travel but it's not worth travelling when the grounds open up for something I'm so critical of and can find my entertainment elsewhere. Whether we win the GF this year or not is immaterial to this decision.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    I’ve read this a few times about being bullied vs Wigan and I’m not sure it’s true really.

    We lost that game on the back of errors, lots of them completely unforced. I read on the Wigan site that Singleton caused Grace to fall apart - what by shouting in his direction after he’d already made his handling error from a drop-out with nobody near him? Give over, Singleton was the least effective forward on the park - his stats were appalling.

    Shouting at wingers and daft head shots late in the game is not bullying. The packs were basically even, ours probably made more yards. The issue was in errors and uncharacteristically bad missed tackles not getting “bullied”.

    In the first 20 mins when we were holding onto the ball we were marching Wigan back and they couldn’t get out of their own half. Both packs were aggressive, we made more errors.


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    But how many of those errors were came about because of Wigan's physicality, and players not concentrating because they didn't when or where they would be hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    But we can't have it both ways, one discussion reflects on how dominant our pack generally is, then another about half backs on the back foot. It's not very often our halves are on the back foot I think it more to do with their choice or instruction not to go to the centres.


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    In my view we don't have a dominant pack going forward its just Walmsley when he goes off we lose momentum most of the time, our halves don't seem to have as much space as last year they have only scored 4 tries (Lomax on ZERO) between them this season in the regular fixtures I reckon that's one of our poorest returns ever in the Superleague era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    In my view we don't have a dominant pack its just Walmsley when he goes off we lose momentum most of the time, our halves don't have as much space as last year they have only scored 4 tries between them this season I reckon that's one of our poorest returns ever in the Superleague era.
    Lomax has gone from 16 tries in the league last year to 0 this year with 21 assists both seasons. Fages and Coote about on par for tries with last year given the shorter season but Fages dropped from 22 assists to 7. Coote 22 to 14.

    Coote, Lomax and Fages have gone from 101 tries/assists in 2019 down to 54 in 2020. The team as a whole has scored 79 tries to last season’s 163. Now we can talk about Thompson and Percival missing out but when the team and the half backs have halved their creative output you have to question the tactics and therefore the coach.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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