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Thread: All saints backline 2021?

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    Default All saints backline 2021?

    So looking at the contract list is it possible to see an all saints academy in 2021? I think we may see it next year a few times. We will have coote naiqama and fages all OOC at the end of next season so we could line up with

    Welsby (looks to be groomed as cootes replacement)
    Makinson
    Simm (natural right center naiqama may go back to nrl)
    Percival
    Grace
    Lomax
    Dodd (i feel if he doesnt get regular game time he will leave to nrl or another top team plus fages has gone backwards this year)

    Future looks bright for our backline but im not really aware of any young forwards in our academy who will be the next luke thompson matty lees or jack ashworth to take the bench spot

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    Queue the Welsby hate from ‘fans’ who don’t know anything about potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    Queue the Welsby hate from ‘fans’ who don’t know anything about potential.
    Grow up. He's shown potential and nothing more as yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Grow up. He's shown potential and nothing more as yet.






    Your right Dave. I can’t believe that Josh Simm after playing so well was dropped and Welsby preferred to him.

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    My 2022 line up would be:

    Lomax (Capt)
    Makinson
    Simm
    Percival
    Welsby
    Dodd

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    Mine would be:

    Papenhuysen
    Makinson
    Simm
    Percival
    Grace
    Lomax
    Dodd

    5/6 ain't bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by itswide2west View Post
    So looking at the contract list is it possible to see an all saints academy in 2021? I think we may see it next year a few times. We will have coote naiqama and fages all OOC at the end of next season so we could line up with

    Welsby (looks to be groomed as cootes replacement)
    Makinson
    Simm (natural right center naiqama may go back to nrl)
    Percival
    Grace
    Lomax
    Dodd (i feel if he doesnt get regular game time he will leave to nrl or another top team plus fages has gone backwards this year)

    Future looks bright for our backline but im not really aware of any young forwards in our academy who will be the next luke thompson matty lees or jack ashworth to take the bench spot
    It's certainly plausible. Simm looks like the real deal to me. I'm yet to be convinced by Welsby as a full back but he seems to be very highly rated indeed by the club so there must be something there.

    I can't make my mind up about Fages. He can be frustratingly one dimensional but he plays square and he takes the ball to the line, and I think we really miss that when he's not playing. He might not be making killer passes or lots of clean breaks, but he does hold up the defensive line, which makes room for others. I agree though that we need to get Dodd playing regularly soonish if we want to hold on to him, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wirefox View Post
    Your right Dave. I canít believe that Josh Simm after playing so well was dropped and Welsby preferred to him.
    A question I have, based on the 'potential' of this line up would be - what is the actual structure at the club that will support these players to turn their individual and collective skills into Saints? I simply don't know if there is any responsibility handed to anyone for their development & to review their progress against an established plan. Given that we've been baited about young Welsby I'll comment. I honestly don't know where he fits in. I've said before he needs to reflect on where he wants to play and develop a plan in support of it. This business swapping him here there and everywhere doesn't help him whatsoever. That being said I can't imagine a modern day fullback who isnt solid under the high ball and has at least some real pace, these would be my concerns, one can be improved, the other you have it or you don't.


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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    Queue the Welsby hate from ‘fans’ who don’t know anything about potential.
    No hate at all from me. I'd say that time will tell. He's showed some decent touches at times with ball in hand particularly timing of passes.
    On the negative side he's made some absolute howlers some of them unforced.
    I don't think there are necessarily signs he's the next Messiah.
    He's a young lad. Think he needs to nail down a position as he has been moved about a bit.
    Let's see how he goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    A question I have, based on the 'potential' of this line up would be - what is the actual structure at the club that will support these players to turn their individual and collective skills into Saints? I simply don't know if there is any responsibility handed to anyone for their development & to review their progress against an established plan. Given that we've been baited about young Welsby I'll comment. I honestly don't know where he fits in. I've said before he needs to reflect on where he wants to play and develop a plan in support of it. This business swapping him here there and everywhere doesn't help him whatsoever. That being said I can't imagine a modern day fullback who isnt solid under the high ball and has at least some real pace, these would be my concerns, one can be improved, the other you have it or you don't.


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    It's also something I worry about as Woolf doesn't seem that bothered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    A question I have, based on the 'potential' of this line up would be - what is the actual structure at the club that will support these players to turn their individual and collective skills into Saints? I simply don't know if there is any responsibility handed to anyone for their development & to review their progress against an established plan. Given that we've been baited about young Welsby I'll comment. I honestly don't know where he fits in. I've said before he needs to reflect on where he wants to play and develop a plan in support of it. This business swapping him here there and everywhere doesn't help him whatsoever. That being said I can't imagine a modern day fullback who isnt solid under the high ball and has at least some real pace, these would be my concerns, one can be improved, the other you have it or you don't.


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    Welsby's best position is stand off but he has played very little super league game time there, he's done a good job on the wing when Makinson was suspended. The biggest problem is how long do we play Lomax and Fages without a kicking game when we have two of the most natural half backs (Welsby + Dodd) waiting in the wings and will need game time there sooner than later.

    Woolf just can't take a risk upsetting the balance of the pivots, so his hands are tied playing those two in their natural positions, he is more or less damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Welsby's best position is stand off but he has played very little super league game time there, he's done a good job on the wing when Makinson was suspended. The biggest problem is how long do we play Lomax and Fages without a kicking game when we have two of the most natural half backs (Welsby + Dodd) waiting in the wings and will need game time there sooner than later.

    Woolf just can't take a risk upsetting the balance of the pivots, so his hands are tied playing those two in their natural positions, he is more or less damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
    That's the problem, he doesn't take any risks, even when it's clear that isn't working. I'm not even sure what balance you're referring too, we don't have any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    A question I have, based on the 'potential' of this line up would be - what is the actual structure at the club that will support these players to turn their individual and collective skills into Saints? I simply don't know if there is any responsibility handed to anyone for their development & to review their progress against an established plan. Given that we've been baited about young Welsby I'll comment. I honestly don't know where he fits in. I've said before he needs to reflect on where he wants to play and develop a plan in support of it. This business swapping him here there and everywhere doesn't help him whatsoever. That being said I can't imagine a modern day fullback who isnt solid under the high ball and has at least some real pace, these would be my concerns, one can be improved, the other you have it or you don't.


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    I agree with most of what you wrote. But, Welsby can hardly be expected the say he wants X position and to develop a plan to support that position. I think it's more realistic for Welsby to ask where the club sees him playing and what they are doing to develop him for that position. Most young lads will play anywhere just to get a chance in the first team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Welsby's best position is stand off but he has played very little super league game time there, he's done a good job on the wing when Makinson was suspended. The biggest problem is how long do we play Lomax and Fages without a kicking game when we have two of the most natural half backs (Welsby + Dodd) waiting in the wings and will need game time there sooner than later.

    Woolf just can't take a risk upsetting the balance of the pivots, so his hands are tied playing those two in their natural positions, he is more or less damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
    Can't or won't.

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    Is KN off then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Welsby's best position is stand off but he has played very little super league game time there, he's done a good job on the wing when Makinson was suspended. The biggest problem is how long do we play Lomax and Fages without a kicking game when we have two of the most natural half backs (Welsby + Dodd) waiting in the wings and will need game time there sooner than later.

    Woolf just can't take a risk upsetting the balance of the pivots, so his hands are tied playing those two in their natural positions, he is more or less damned if he does damned if he doesn't.
    I accept what you say but difficult without seeing it in action. The answer for me based on what I see now would be to move Lomax to fullback post Coote if Lomax is still performing at the required level of fitness. Give Welsby a run in the halves knowing Lomax is still about if needed. I don't believe him playing anywhere else properly equips him for a half back role. Half of the role is commanding & directing the play, he won't get that experience on the wing. Before anyone chips in with it not doing Lomax & Wellens any harm, I'd counter with just how good both might have been had they had a proper development plan earlier in their careers. As an aside I've not noticed Welsby doing too much kicking up to now so can't pass comments on those particular skills. I do think fwiw that Dodd & Simm could both be something special as long as they continue along the right path. They do need someone to work with them which reflects back to my post of earlier.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Grow up. He's shown potential and nothing more as yet.
    If thereís one person on this forum that needs to Ďgrow upí itís probably you.
    He isnít going to be a star or play consistently well at 19, we canít expect him to show much more yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    If there’s one person on this forum that needs to ‘grow up’ it’s probably you.
    He isn’t going to be a star or play consistently well at 19, we can’t expect him to show much more yet.
    I don't disagree with either point. I never said he was going to be a star at 19 though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I don't disagree with either point. I never said he was going to be a star at 19 though.
    Trouble is that many are saying exactly that seemingly based on his junior rugby but I don't believe it helps him, hinders him more likely.


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    Im not absolutely sold on Welsby but its way too early to write him off. He’s being moved around positionally from game to game playing in a team where a number of the senior players aren’t playing half as well as they were last season (for whatever reason).
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

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    Quote Originally Posted by reliable sauce View Post
    If thereís one person on this forum that needs to Ďgrow upí itís probably you.
    He isnít going to be a star or play consistently well at 19, we canít expect him to show much more yet.
    Donít get wound up by it. This is the same forum that chunners on saying Matty Lees isnít good enough. The young player of the year last year and the player who perforated his bowel mid last season. The player playing at starting prop forward for one of the best teams in super league (The best) and still 22 years old. Our all knowledgable fan base. Donít take any notice mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I accept what you say but difficult without seeing it in action. The answer for me based on what I see now would be to move Lomax to fullback post Coote if Lomax is still performing at the required level of fitness. Give Welsby a run in the halves knowing Lomax is still about if needed. I don't believe him playing anywhere else properly equips him for a half back role. Half of the role is commanding & directing the play, he won't get that experience on the wing. Before anyone chips in with it not doing Lomax & Wellens any harm, I'd counter with just how good both might have been had they had a proper development plan earlier in their careers. As an aside I've not noticed Welsby doing too much kicking up to now so can't pass comments on those particular skills. I do think fwiw that Dodd & Simm could both be something special as long as they continue along the right path. They do need someone to work with them which reflects back to my post of earlier.


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    Agree with most of that all three in Simm, Welsby and Dodd are still very much in progress but Simm has the easier transition having played in only the position he's played for years. Welsby is a utility player at the moment because he can play anywhere in the backline , Dodd can only play Scrum half and Hooker.

    There is a little bit of Deja Vu in that Holbrook kept playing Richardson and the fans on here got on his back because of it, similarly Woolf is playing Welsby in too many positions and fans on here are over critical to the player when its nots been Welsby's decision.

    Like I've said many threads ago we have to be careful that we don't mess this Welsby/Dodd combination up, the one thing in the players favour is that both of them are quite patient and are not expecting that regular place in their favoured position for season 2021.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Agree with most of that all three in Simm, Welsby and Dodd are still very much in progress but Simm has the easier transition having played in only the position he's played for years. Welsby is a utility player at the moment because he can play anywhere in the backline , Dodd can only play Scrum half and Hooker.

    There is a little bit of Deja Vu in that Holbrook kept playing Richardson and the fans on here got on his back because of it, similarly Woolf is playing Welsby in too many positions and fans on here are over critical to the player when its nots been Welsby's decision.

    Like I've said many threads ago we have to be careful that we don't mess this Welsby/Dodd combination up, the one thing in the players favour is that both of them are quite patient and are not expecting that regular place in their favoured position for season 2021.
    I see what you're saying about Welsby being played as a utility but he's no better than any of the others youngsters would be surely. It's just that he's had a lot more chances & exposure. Are we saying Simm couldn't actually play full back or wing. He may not excel at it but he could do it. That's as I see it. Rizzelli has only had one chance as has Nisbet. Isn't Rizzelli a young centre who debuted at wing for his one and only chance in a weakened side, Welsby has played a lot of times with top players round him in support.

    I think there's a blurring of reality in saying just because any player plays somewhere means they're good at it. Someone needs to select a position for him and see how he goes when the chance comes, just as is happening to all of the others.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I see what you're saying about Welsby being played as a utility but he's no better than any of the others youngsters would be surely. It's just that he's had a lot more chances & exposure. Are we saying Simm couldn't actually play full back or wing. He may not excel at it but he could do it. That's as I see it. Rizzelli has only had one chance as has Nisbet. Isn't Rizzelli a young centre who debuted at wing for his one and only chance in a weakened side, Welsby has played a lot of times with top players round him in support.

    I think there's a blurring of reality in saying just because any player plays somewhere means they're good at it. Someone needs to select a position for him and see how he goes when the chance comes, just as is happening to all of the others.


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    No disrespect to Rizzelli or Nisbet but I would think against superleague first team opposition Welsby would play better than them at centre or wing respectively, but that's only my opinion. Simm would be a completely different matter though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    No disrespect to Rizzelli or Nisbet but I would think against superleague first team opposition Welsby would play better than them at centre or wing respectively, but that's only my opinion. Simm would be a completely different matter though.
    You're perhaps right & I only included them for effect, however it's impossible to say who would show up best when hypothetically measured after the same number of 1st team outings. Clearly KW rates Welsby which is why he's had the exposure however my point is that he hasn't particularly shone anywhere unfortunately. He's had the odd good game but playing primarily with a first choice team around him I expected a little more, even a spark or two. I have no trust in KW's opinion of any of the back line unfortunately, he shows absolutely no respect for these positions as far as I'm concerned. I just wonder how much time he spends with them individually or as a group discussing plans on anything but defensive patterns.


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