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Thread: 12 teams in Super League 2021 it is then

  1. #26
    In The South Stand Dux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    Absolutely, and that's something that a lot of people have probably forgotten about when clambering for 14. The top 8 play-offs were utterly dreadful.

    12 is enough, and for me, 23 games would be enough, but I can't see the clubs buying into that one.

    I agree with Blobby that there needs to be a one year postponement of relegation. The climate isn't right for any team elevated to Super League to be able to stick around beyond that year, so they need to almost write off the first season and build for a second.

    How we move forward on a P&R issue in future is an issue. I think most of us would be a fan of it under normal circumstances, but I'm starting to see the time come when every team that comes up will go straight back down again. Contrary to myth, this hasn't been the case at all over the years, but the gulf is now too big, and the only biggish clubs outside of Super League now perenially seem in financial strife.

    I've always been an advocate of a twenty team Super League consisting of two divisions. With both tiers afforded equal status in terms of TV and money, you could have a two-up, two down system between the divisions that would not impact financially on the clubs. This would enable all to grow organically and nobody would need to break their banks to get promoted or stay up. Opportunities to go up would be plentiful and so missing out one year does not mean financial disaster. This keeps excitement in the game, but takes away the fear that goes with it.

    In reality, many of the Championship and League One clubs have no ambition of being in Super League, yet they still play teams that do have real ambition. They get in the way. Those such as Batley, Dewsbury and Sheffield, who have openly declared that they wouldn't wish to be promoted would be excluded in favour of twenty clubs with ambition. Those with no aspirations of Super League play in an effective Third Division, whereupon if they change their minds, they can apply for a Super League franchise along with any new clubs.

    Based upon current standings and my belief on who are the clubs with ambition to be part of the elite, I could easily narrow that to the following:-

    TIER 1 - Castleford, Catalans, Huddersfield, Hull FC, Leeds, Salford, St. Helens, Wakefield, Warrington, Wigan
    TIER 2 - Bradford, Featherstone, Halifax, Hull KR, Leigh, London, Newcastle, Toulouse, Widnes, York

    It all makes sense to me, but unfortunately the elite clubs are far to selfish to agree a deal that cuts another eight clubs into their share of the pie.
    Going up to 14 teams would involve club bosses accepting a thinner slice of the TV money pie. Given that that pie is almost certainly about to get significantly smaller, I can't see them going for it. In the current circumstances, I think 12 teams with a top 5 playoff is the best of the realistic options.

    Unfortunately it looks like it will be the Championship clubs who will take the brunt of a lower TV deal, though, as I understand that the SL clubs have dictated that in the event of a reduced TV deal a much smaller distribution will be made to clubs below SL level. So it may well be that as of next year no Championship clubs will be in a position to be ambitious, unless they get a wealthy backer.

    For context, see this article by John Davidson in the i the other day: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-leag...one-rfl-741881

  2. #27
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk DD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    Going up to 14 teams would involve club bosses accepting a thinner slice of the TV money pie. Given that that pie is almost certainly about to get significantly smaller, I can't see them going for it. In the current circumstances, I think 12 teams with a top 5 playoff is the best of the realistic options.

    Unfortunately it looks like it will be the Championship clubs who will take the brunt of a lower TV deal, though, as I understand that the SL clubs have dictated that in the event of a reduced TV deal a much smaller distribution will be made to clubs below SL level. So it may well be that as of next year no Championship clubs will be in a position to be ambitious, unless they get a wealthy backer.

    For context, see this article by John Davidson in the i the other day: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-leag...one-rfl-741881
    Yes. It certainly could never happen without more TV money and I wouldn't say the game was in any fit state to negotiate a better deal at the moment. Maybe selling up to Eddie Hearn wouldn't be such a bad idea.

    The realistic assessment is that 12 clubs is the number for the foreseeable future and my hunch is that we could be getting very close to a closed shop or licensing again. If the governing body could see a way of getting both London and Toulouse in and shedding somebody like Wakefield, then I'd suggest they'd happily close the door and brick up the opening.
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    Learning All The Songs Noel Cleal's Avatar
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    Given the track record of the RFL it is bound to be Bradford.

    It would make sense for the team chosen to already have a full time squad. So, London, Toulouse and Leigh are the available candidates.

    I can't help but feel that who ever gets put in is getting stitched up. We are looking at 4 months notice for a club that will have a worse squad and less resources than Toronto did. The team selected is going back down and they will be lucky to get a win.

    So I don't believe it matters who it is, unless the plan is to abandon P&R after 2021.
    Last edited by Noel Cleal; 3rd November 2020 at 14:58.
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    In The South Stand Dux's Avatar
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    People should be aware that this is not the RFL making these decisions. It's the SL board, on which the RFL has one vote. All of the decisions on SL over the last two years have been made by the clubs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    Given the track record of the RFL it is bound to be Bradford.

    It would make sense for the team chosen to already have a full time squad. So, London, Toulouse and Leigh are the available candidates.

    I can't help but feel that who ever gets put in is getting stitched up. We are looking at 4 months notice for a club that will have a worse squad and less resources than Toronto did. The team selected is going back down and they will be lucky to get a win.

    So I don't believe it matters who it is, unless the plan is to abandon P&R after 2021.
    Leigh aren't full time. Some of them are (less than half I think) but not all of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    People should be aware that this is not the RFL making these decisions. It's the SL board, on which the RFL has one vote. All of the decisions on SL over the last two years have been made by the clubs.
    Apparently the decision on the 12th club isn't being put to a club vote.
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    In The South Stand Dux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Apparently the decision on the 12th club isn't being put to a club vote.
    That makes me suspect even more that Toulouse have had the slot lined up for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hemmings' Wig View Post
    Toulouse is sensible expansion. A proven club in an RL area, should add more to the international game in developing France, should increase commercial/TV revenue from France and adds more local interest for Catalans.
    so that's Toulouse out then, when has sense ever been the RFL's strong point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Apparently the decision on the 12th club isn't being put to a club vote.
    Then who will make the decision? The RL only have the same voting power as an individual club. Is it going to be down to Elstone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Then who will make the decision? The RL only have the same voting power as an individual club. Is it going to be down to Elstone?
    SL and RFL apparently.
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    I thought I remembered that the new TV contracts were split between SL and the rest, ie the Cup and internationals. I assume that the second and third tiers will get some revenue from that part of the contract, albeit a far lower amount. If Sky do offer around 30m and the 12 SL clubs take the lot that’ll be more per club than they’re getting now, so IMO they’ll take a lower deal if the money isn’t going to anyone but themselves. Sky will have worked that out and know what they’re doing in such discussions.

    I assume the BBC will keep the Cup for 2m a year or something, and they’ve already signed a deal for the World Cup. How much of that money filters down to the lower leagues I’m not sure, but it won’t be a great deal.

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    In The South Stand Dux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    SL and RFL apparently.
    I suppose this is a different situation politically as whoever gets the nod to go in to SL (run by SL) will also be going out of the Championship (run by RFL) ... so it's not just a SL issue.

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    It will be down to financial stability in the end with each club in the running having to make a bid I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    Given the players Toulouse have been signing Im wondering if they already know that theyre in.
    It has to be a given surely they wouldn't mortgage them self without some kind of assurance.


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    In The West Stand Belgian Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    SL and RFL apparently.
    I assume you mean just the two governing bodies. If the clubs don't get a vote I hope they are at least consulted and listened to.
    Thx anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I assume you mean just the two governing bodies. If the clubs don't get a vote I hope they are at least consulted and listened to.
    Thx anyway.
    Yes sorry, just the governing bodies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Yellow Giraffe View Post
    Yes sorry, just the governing bodies.
    I understood what you meant. Thanks.

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    Moderator Div's Avatar
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    I always considered that promotion should be on merit. However, it just doesn't seem to work.

    Like it or not I think we need to revert to the idea of franchising and some sort of minimum standard certainly over stadia and player development.

    I dont have a strong feeling for one particular club at the moment but during the course of the next few years I think it would be good to see Toulouse, London, York and Newcastle involved. All of those have decent grass roots and stadia befitting of the competition. They all have decent catchmet areas.

    Quite honestly I think its high time that Wakefield and Castleford were given an ultimatum over playing stadia - you get it sorted or your out. They have stringed everybody along for long enough. As for Featherstone are an excellent community club but realistically how can a town with a 15,000 population ever seriousy bring much to the party?

    Bradford - well how many times can one club go bust? In a ideal world we would welcome a strong Bradford playing in a decent venue. How is that going to happen though?

    The game needs to decide now what it wants the competition to look like in a few years. Lets at last have a clear vision and a strategy to get us there. - Im not thinking that wil happen though as we dont have a visionary!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    Given the players Toulouse have been signing Im wondering if they already know that theyre in.
    Thinking exactly the same thing mate
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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    The licensing system is the best way in theory. Unfortunately the League abuse it in order to bring in any team they wish in order to expand the sport out of the north. Usually resulting in failure.
    Ive said before but considering clubs practically give away season tickets these days its important that clubs get plenty away spectators coming through the turnstiles paying full whack. Thats why i can never understand clubs voting in teams like Catalans, London and Toronto. Unless im missing something.

    Surely Bradford and Leigh would bring more travelling fans to the sport. You could argue that those two clubs are basket cases but they arent anymore likely to fail than plenty other clubs in Super League.

    I think it should be a 12 teams league with one out one in every 3 years if the team coming in ticks all the boxes of stadium standard, crowd numbers and strong financial backing.
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  21. #46
    In The South Stand Sean Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    The licensing system is the best way in theory. Unfortunately the League abuse it in order to bring in any team they wish in order to expand the sport out of the north. Usually resulting in failure.
    Ive said before but considering clubs practically give away season tickets these days its important that clubs get plenty away spectators coming through the turnstiles paying full whack. Thats why i can never understand clubs voting in teams like Catalans, London and Toronto. Unless im missing something.

    Surely Bradford and Leigh would bring more travelling fans to the sport. You could argue that those two clubs are basket cases but they arent anymore likely to fail than plenty other clubs in Super League.

    I think it should be a 12 teams league with one out one in every 3 years if the team coming in ticks all the boxes of stadium standard, crowd numbers and strong financial backing.
    How many times a year do we get a decent away following though? 2-3? Friday night games killed all that off

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    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk fishy3005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Day View Post
    How many times a year do we get a decent away following though? 2-3? Friday night games killed all that off
    Yeh thats true.
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  23. #48
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    Im all for licensing returning but it has to be run independently and not overseen by the clubs who are just going to protect themselves and their own interests, which brings down the standard across the board and makes licensing a waste of time.
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    In The South Stand Dux's Avatar
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    I personally hate licensing and I hope it never returns. I suspect, though, that it's inevitable that it will, given that the SL clubs now have control of how the competition is run. If they have an opportunity to secure their own place in SL in perpetuity (which, let's be honest, is exactly what a return to licensing will mean) they will grab it with both hands.

  25. #50
    In The North Stand With All The Old Folk Blobbynator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dux View Post
    I personally hate licensing and I hope it never returns. I suspect, though, that it's inevitable that it will, given that the SL clubs now have control of how the competition is run. If they have an opportunity to secure their own place in SL in perpetuity (which, let's be honest, is exactly what a return to licensing will mean) they will grab it with both hands.
    I don't mind licencing as long as there is a strong plan in place as to how it works and what the parameters are, and it improves the game obviously. The last version of licencing was awful and in true Rugby League fashion the plan was abandoned before it really took off.
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