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Thread: Missing Percy and a game plan

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    Default Missing Percy and a game plan

    Last night's debacle really showed we lacked penetration in attack. I thought we got the better of the early stages yet apart from the try we never looked like breaking the pies defence. We don't have a line breaker in the three quarters without Percy, kevy just tries to run through a defence but he ain't no konrad Hurrel. Welsbey is not the answer either, he was once again out of his depth against the big boys. The only line breaker we have took a right hammering last night because he was the only player needing to be closely marked. To be fair to the three quarters they are being used a battering rams, being expected to do the forwards job when clearing the line. This takes nothing out of the opponents defence. The game plan we have is so simple and is easily worked out by opponents. Without Big Al we are an impotent force as last night proved.
    I know we had a good run following lockdown but I have not been happy with the way we have played. The question for me is, is Woolfe the right man for the job?

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    What I suppose bothers me is that Simm looks like a centre and he runs like a centre but wasn't played. Our Coach stated we need to find a place for Welsby, why? decide what he is and play him there or as an emergency winger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    What I suppose bothers me is that Simm looks like a centre and he runs like a centre but wasn't played. Our Coach stated we need to find a place for Welsby, why? decide what he is and play him there or as an emergency winger.
    I've been thinking about this myself and the only thing I can come up with is if he could get away with a hard tackling 2nd rower in the centres I think that's what he would go with. Clearly he has no interest or understanding what goes on outside of the forwards. It must be so frustrating for the group. Grace didnt have a great game last night as he seemed to be mopping things up and covering back doing a lot of work, neither him or TM got a direct pass as far as I can remember. I'd much rather these two be fresh enough to provide an explosive break in attack rather than used as they are. Of course they need to run the ball back but they seem to be doing it an awful lot of times which then dulls any edge they might have.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    What I suppose bothers me is that Simm looks like a centre and he runs like a centre but wasn't played. Our Coach stated we need to find a place for Welsby, why? decide what he is and play him there or as an emergency winger.
    I still haven't worked out what Welsby's position is .

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    Default Welsby

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint from Bury View Post
    I still haven't worked out what Welsby's position is .
    Go on I’ll say it! Stand Off
    Stand Off the Pitch .

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    I don't want to diss a youngster but he is on a pedestal and that is not his fault. I am just at a loss with the hype. Adam Swift always felt he was really a full back but one thing held him back, he couldn't take the high ball. Welsby seemed suspect under the high ball when in his favoured spot. At SO he looked like a crab. At centre he didn't fulfil the basics. Loose forward in a big pack perhaps? It is difficult but either him or Dodd really need to make a spot theirs next season. Don't forget Lomax is 30 and Fages is solid but limited. We need real competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I've been thinking about this myself and the only thing I can come up with is if he could get away with a hard tackling 2nd rower in the centres I think that's what he would go with. Clearly he has no interest or understanding what goes on outside of the forwards. It must be so frustrating for the group. Grace didnt have a great game last night as he seemed to be mopping things up and covering back doing a lot of work, neither him or TM got a direct pass as far as I can remember. I'd much rather these two be fresh enough to provide an explosive break in attack rather than used as they are. Of course they need to run the ball back but they seem to be doing it an awful lot of times which then dulls any edge they might have.


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    I agree regarding playing Second row's at centre. From what I've seen Dodd has more potential than Welsby at the moment, and I'd prefer to see him with Lomax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    I don't want to diss a youngster but he is on a pedestal and that is not his fault. I am just at a loss with the hype. Adam Swift always felt he was really a full back but one thing held him back, he couldn't take the high ball. Welsby seemed suspect under the high ball when in his favoured spot. At SO he looked like a crab. At centre he didn't fulfil the basics. Loose forward in a big pack perhaps? It is difficult but either him or Dodd really need to make a spot theirs next season. Don't forget Lomax is 30 and Fages is solid but limited. We need real competition.
    See above Re. Welsby. It can't be easy for him though when he basically isn't allowed to play, although that goes for the rest of the backs.

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    Fair comment Dave

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    To be honest I would argue it didn't matter who played centre they didn't get a bloody pass!

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    Centres and wingers, sorry what are they again? Thought we just played 4 crash and smash players, these days, no pace, hands or skill needed just size and power.

    Wonder what the tactics would have been if we had a player like Lyon at centre?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    I don't want to diss a youngster but he is on a pedestal and that is not his fault. I am just at a loss with the hype. Adam Swift always felt he was really a full back but one thing held him back, he couldn't take the high ball. Welsby seemed suspect under the high ball when in his favoured spot. At SO he looked like a crab. At centre he didn't fulfil the basics. Loose forward in a big pack perhaps? It is difficult but either him or Dodd really need to make a spot theirs next season. Don't forget Lomax is 30 and Fages is solid but limited. We need real competition.
    Wello struggled with the high ball as well at the beginning of his career and had self doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Div View Post
    To be honest I would argue it didn't matter who played centre they didn't get a bloody pass!
    I don't recall Naiqama touching the ball in the whole 80 minutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hemmings' Wig View Post
    I don't recall Naiqama touching the ball in the whole 80 minutes.
    I can unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Harvest View Post
    Centres and wingers, sorry what are they again? Thought we just played 4 crash and smash players, these days, no pace, hands or skill needed just size and power.

    Wonder what the tactics would have been if we had a player like Lyon at centre?
    Up the middle with Lyon returning kicks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hemmings' Wig View Post
    I don't recall Naiqama touching the ball in the whole 80 minutes.
    He actually returned it a few times. When Percy was playing I always thought that Naiquama never did his share of returning the ball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I can unfortunately.
    First pass he received he dropped the ball when Tony Clubb hit him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Wello struggled with the high ball as well at the beginning of his career and had self doubt.
    I think what some are struggling with including me is we've been told he's a world beater or will be, the best young prospect in the game, playing him anywhere and everywhere. But he has limited pace, positionally naive & weak under the high ball from what I've seen for myself. It doesn't sit right unfortunately. I've commented on the Matu'autia thread what I think his best plan of action might be but what do I know.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I think what some are struggling with including me is we've been told he's a world beater or will be, the best young prospect in the game, playing him anywhere and everywhere. But he has limited pace, positionally naive & weak under the high ball from what I've seen for myself. It doesn't sit right unfortunately. I've commented on the Matu'autia thread what I think his best plan of action might be but what do I know.


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    The problem is that people are taking the hype too seriously and instantly start judging as though they are finished articles. We've had loads of young players who have started their careers with weaknesses, like I've just mentioned Wello was a classic one. We've had a few wingers who needed a dustbin lid to catch a ball and fans wanted to get rid, off the top of my head Les Jones, Ade Gardner, Francis Meli, Adam Swift struggled for earlier periods in their career. The great Tom Van Vollenhoven struggled catching a ball as well in his early games, that was were the "coconut" gag came from.

    It will also only take a few poor games from Dodd for fans to doubt him, expectations are high in Superleague but kids still need time to develop and progress perhaps a bit longer than what fans will tolerate.

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    Wigan got their game plan spot on. Without Walmsley we lacked the metres off our own line. They put three into the first three tackles and nullified Tommy Mak. Their edges moved up quickly and we couldn’t get the ball wide and we’re forced up the middle. With Walmsley in the side we likely win that game, he’s that important. His quick PTB shouldn’t be under estimated and he wins penalties.

    That said we really weren’t far off. A loss won’t do us any harm going into the playoffs and for when we play them again. Nobody will convince me Simm isn’t a bigger threat carrying the ball than Welsby in that left centre at present. At some point in the next 12 months Dodds will likely force out Fages but behind a lot bigger pack once we announce Matautia and Paasi.

    As for this season, in all honesty only Saints, Wigan and Warrington can live with that pace and intensity. Smith is really coming of age and his threat from dummy half missed when defenders tire. I would be confident we can improve with the ball reduce the errors and be even more competitive with Walmsley, Simm & Smith in that 17, Paulo contributed nothing.

    Easily Wigan’s best 80’s tackle and completion stats off the charts. We can certainly get better and will, not sure Wigan will or can. Certainly no panic from me personally.


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    I'm not panicking either.We got the game plan completely wrong in my opinion. We knew Wigan would pack the forwards and be aggressive and we didn't have a way of overcoming that. It may be me but we do seem to lack brains at time. Jonny and Theo are not intellectual schemers which is what is required at this level.

    Both are top class defenders and running threats but the kicking game and the ability to open up defences with pace of the mark or produce that gamebreaking bit of magic is missing in the tight big games.

    With a Sezer or a Dodd (maybe) we would be a different proposition.

    Simm has been very good at centre so why did he miss out?

    I think the issues are psychological and tactical at the moment.

    Wigan played with 12 forwards in their squad on friday and we should have spotted it. (Leulai and Hastings look like forwards now)

    Chucking 2 points/percentages away at Salford has come back to haunt us.
    Learned comment from The Don

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    Grace must have been shell shocked he got battered everytime he got the ball, 3 in the tackle every time and plenty of facials on the floor. Hardaker was into his face all game and they really threw us off our game it was relentless. Fair play to Wigan for keeping it going all the game but the ref didn't Police the tackling at all well, he let too much go.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    The problem is that people are taking the hype too seriously and instantly start judging as though they are finished articles. We've had loads of young players who have started their careers with weaknesses, like I've just mentioned Wello was a classic one. We've had a few wingers who needed a dustbin lid to catch a ball and fans wanted to get rid, off the top of my head Les Jones, Ade Gardner, Francis Meli, Adam Swift struggled for earlier periods in their career. The great Tom Van Vollenhoven struggled catching a ball as well in his early games, that was were the "coconut" gag came from.

    It will also only take a few poor games from Dodd for fans to doubt him, expectations are high in Superleague but kids still need time to develop and progress perhaps a bit longer than what fans will tolerate.
    I don't disagree with much of what you say but it doesn't address the range of issues unfortunately, solely that he needs to practise under the high ball. We might agree that you believe he's exceptional or soon will be on his way to being so. I don't see him deserving of a place anytime soon save for utility reserve but not in front of some of the other youngsters who seem to be delivering.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I don't disagree with much of what you say but it doesn't address the range of issues unfortunately, solely that he needs to practise under the high ball. We might agree that you believe he's exceptional or soon will be on his way to being so. I don't see him deserving of a place anytime soon save for utility reserve but not in front of some of the other youngsters who seem to be delivering.


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    I,m assuming these other youngsters delivering is just Simm as Bentley is an established first team player now. The only reason I can see Welsby being picked over Simm at centre is a bit of cover if Coote or Lomax gets injured in a game.

    Some fans on here may think that scoring a hat trick against Leeds makes him a first choice reserve centre but for me his best attribute has been his defence because he's reading the game in his natural position. For Welsby he is a natural stand off but he is being asked to play out of his natural position sometimes full back, sometimes wing, sometimes centre, that's a big ask for one of the youngest players in our squad.

    I think if you ask Simm to play full back, wing or stand off fans will probably come up with a similar critique. For me Welsby should be taken out of the firing line now he has played 160 mins of rugby in 4 days and has got battered in the process. Simm should be playing against Catalan this Thursday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I,m assuming these other youngsters delivering is just Simm as Bentley is an established first team player now. The only reason I can see Welsby being picked over Simm at centre is a bit of cover if Coote or Lomax gets injured in a game.

    Some fans on here may think that scoring a hat trick against Leeds makes him a first choice reserve centre but for me his best attribute has been his defence because he's reading the game in his natural position. For Welsby he is a natural stand off but he is being asked to play out of his natural position sometimes full back, sometimes wing, sometimes centre, that's a big ask for one of the youngest players in our squad.

    I think if you ask Simm to play full back, wing or stand off fans will probably come up with a similar critique. For me Welsby should be taken out of the firing line now he has played 160 mins of rugby in 4 days and has got battered in the process.
    I'll just make the point now. I bet he doesn't drop Welsby for the next game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I'm not panicking either.We got the game plan completely wrong in my opinion. We knew Wigan would pack the forwards and be aggressive and we didn't have a way of overcoming that. It may be me but we do seem to lack brains at time. Jonny and Theo are not intellectual schemers which is what is required at this level.

    Both are top class defenders and running threats but the kicking game and the ability to open up defences with pace of the mark or produce that gamebreaking bit of magic is missing in the tight big games.

    With a Sezer or a Dodd (maybe) we would be a different proposition.

    Simm has been very good at centre so why did he miss out?

    I think the issues are psychological and tactical at the moment.

    Wigan played with 12 forwards in their squad on friday and we should have spotted it. (Leulai and Hastings look like forwards now)

    Chucking 2 points/percentages away at Salford has come back to haunt us.
    I don’t think Wigan’s pivots & hooker have any more guile or quality than we boast at 6 7 & 9. Grand final wet weather rugby game plans from both sides. We made a few errors that ultimate cost us the game. When you say we should have spotted it, no way in a game of that intensity with those weather conditions do we start promoting the ball and chucking it about.


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