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Thread: Redundancies At Saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    France & Germany back into lockdown, curfew across Spain, no different mindset here unfortunately as Tories support tiered approach while Labour want a full Circuit Breaker if that's what they're calling it now. I believe we need a major re- think but governments saying they're following the science. There seems to be no way out for the foreseeable future.


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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Germany have also just said once you hit a certain infection saturation point the track and trace is compromised and doesn't work. The science are also arguing amongst themselves on what's best so most democratic governments can't come up with this so called exit plan.
    I fully agree with the above. It is the mixed messages and changing rules that are part of the problem.Where•I live we had a complete lockdown for nearly 3 months, got things virtually under control, then opened up for tourist season.Numbers went through the roof and are now the highest they have ever•been. We are now back in lockdown for a minimum of 15 days, and because it is a bank•holiday, we cannot leave our homes for 4 days. We don't have a tier system in•name, but different areas have different restrictions. France•was also doing the same. I don't think any government is doing anything differently, they are all chopping•and changing and all in a mess. People on here criticise the UK government because that is the one that affects them. But, if you look at other countries they are no different. Almost every country is struggling with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Imagine how far £12billion would have gone in increasing ICU and HDU capacity across the NHS, but if they did that then no-one would have made millions of personal wealth.
    I get your point but remember all of those Nightingales built at great cost, most if not all of the Welsh ones were decommissioned and high numbers elsewhere, ICU were running at 65% last time I looked. Most of these patients currently being highlighted are being given a period on oxygen not in an ICU bed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I fully agree with the above. It is the mixed messages and changing rules that are part of the problem.Where•I live we had a complete lockdown for nearly 3 months, got things virtually under control, then opened up for tourist season.Numbers went through the roof and are now the highest they have ever•been. We are now back in lockdown for a minimum of 15 days, and because it is a bank•holiday, we cannot leave our homes for 4 days. We don't have a tier system in•name, but different areas have different restrictions. France•was also doing the same. I don't think any government is doing anything differently, they are all chopping•and changing and all in a mess. People on here criticise the UK government because that is the one that affects them. But, if you look at other countries they are no different. Almost every country is struggling with this.
    All Governments are struggling but we have one of the most openly corrupt Governments in the West, which is specialising in giving huge amounts of money to its own donors when that money could have gone directly to the NHS. They’ve also appointed Dido Harding to jobs she has no experience for and she has in turn appointed one of her former bosses from Sainsbury’s to a job he has no experience for.

    She was responsible for lobbying for the Cheltenham Festival to take place when everything else was shutting down.

    Dominic Cummings is a muddier of waters whose main job is to confuse with false facts and promises. Is it any wonder our messages are so confused when he’s in charge of communications?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I fully agree with the above. It is the mixed messages and changing rules that are part of the problem.Where•I live we had a complete lockdown for nearly 3 months, got things virtually under control, then opened up for tourist season.Numbers went through the roof and are now the highest they have ever•been. We are now back in lockdown for a minimum of 15 days, and because it is a bank•holiday, we cannot leave our homes for 4 days. We don't have a tier system in•name, but different areas have different restrictions. France•was also doing the same. I don't think any government is doing anything differently, they are all chopping•and changing and all in a mess. People on here criticise the UK government because that is the one that affects them. But, if you look at other countries they are no different. Almost every country is struggling with this.
    Exactly, in France you can't leave your home for any reason unless you are carrying specific paperwork to cover your journey. In Spain there appears to be no exclusions as they have a curfew between 11-6, ours is tame by comparison.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Suttoner View Post
    All Governments are struggling but we have one of the most openly corrupt Governments in the West, which is specialising in giving huge amounts of money to its own donors when that money could have gone directly to the NHS. They’ve also appointed Dido Harding to jobs she has no experience for and she has in turn appointed one of her former bosses from Sainsbury’s to a job he has no experience for.

    She was responsible for lobbying for the Cheltenham Festival to take place when everything else was shutting down.

    Dominic Cummings is a muddier of waters whose main job is to confuse with false facts and promises. Is it any wonder our messages are so confused when he’s in charge of communications?
    It might also be a case of the UK being a bit more open about what is going on and leaving itself open to criticism. Of the people you mention the only one I am familiar with his Cummings and he should have been sacked before now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Imagine how far £12billion would have gone in increasing ICU and HDU capacity across the NHS, but if they did that then no-one would have made millions of personal wealth.
    Perhaps easily forgotten but you will perhaps remember Blair introducing PFI which costs the NHS 10% of its budget in interest charges and collectively much too large to buy out of. This continues year after year after year. I see no point in politicising what's going on when all European governments are on the same path, save for Sweden of course.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    It might also be a case of the UK being a bit more open about what is going on and leaving itself open to criticism. Of the people you mention the only one I am familiar with his Cummings and he should have been sacked before now.
    Governments are inherently bad at business that's why they're politicians


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Governments are inherently bad at business that's why they're politicians


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Perhaps easily forgotten but you will perhaps remember Blair introducing PFI which costs the NHS 10% of its budget in interest charges and collectively much too large to buy out of. This continues year after year after year. I see no point in politicising what's going on when all European governments are on the same path, save for Sweden of course.


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    Very true Covid doesn't know anything about political governments. Closer to home, Scotland SNP,,,,, Wales Labour,,,,,, England Tories have done things differently but the virus just ignores everything that is thrown at it.

    On the EU mainland probably France have been the toughest with lockdowns to the point that they had periods of almost being a "Police State" yet they have the highest infection rate for 5 days now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Perhaps easily forgotten but you will perhaps remember Blair introducing PFI which costs the NHS 10% of its budget in interest charges and collectively much too large to buy out of. This continues year after year after year. I see no point in politicising what's going on when all European governments are on the same path, save for Sweden of course.


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    Not exactly correct, Sweden are also getting a larger spike on their second wave.

    https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/sweden/

    The positives so far of the second wave are that treatments have improved and the vulnerable are better sheilded than in March.

    Its not perfect but the balance is probably about right, as the higher infection rate but lower death and hospitalizations rates compared to march/April.

    I think there is a good case for stating the UK dropped the ball on the first wave compared to say Germany or Japan (similar economies and population density).

    But this time I think we are doing as well as anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    Not exactly correct, Sweden are also getting a larger spike on their second wave.

    https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/sweden/

    The positives so far of the second wave are that treatments have improved and the vulnerable are better sheilded than in March.

    Its not perfect but the balance is probably about right, as the higher infection rate but lower death and hospitalizations rates compared to march/April.

    I think there is a good case for stating the UK dropped the ball on the first wave compared to say Germany or Japan (similar economies and population density).

    But this time I think we are doing as well as anyone else.
    I'd say blip not spike, they're averaging 2 deaths a day I believe with Covid not necessarily from Covid. Just seen a short report asking for perceptions based on acceptance & perception based on what we're told. Q was how many elderly die of Covid after catching it. Average response was 40% but they're quoting 0.5% is more accurate. The issue in all this is do we believe what we're being told?


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    Quote Originally Posted by bewareshadows View Post
    Not exactly correct, Sweden are also getting a larger spike on their second wave.

    https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/sweden/

    The positives so far of the second wave are that treatments have improved and the vulnerable are better sheilded than in March.

    Its not perfect but the balance is probably about right, as the higher infection rate but lower death and hospitalizations rates compared to march/April.

    I think there is a good case for stating the UK dropped the ball on the first wave compared to say Germany or Japan (similar economies and population density).

    But this time I think we are doing as well as anyone else.
    Sorry read this again, yes I reckon Germany & Japan have better structures to their systems and lots of drug manufacturers in Germany so took a head start. Of course Italy and UK health systems are a tad more chaotic and fractured shall we say.


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    I don't know much about the various grants or loans that are available and I'm not quite sure what Mike Rush is asking for.
    I can see that the club is not 'closed' but has lost a main income stream in the restrictions of the 'functions' side of things.
    Similar things are happening in large hotels. Still open, but very few guests and no functions, big weddings etc.
    In fact, there must be thousands of businesses who can claim loss of income of one sort or another due to restrictions.
    Can the state realistically be expected to bail them out and keep people in 'work'?
    Is it more efficient, and better for all in the short term to go down the redundancy route, then re-employ staff once things pick up?
    I'm assuming that those made redundant will be able to claim benefits here. Not something I know much about. Much has changed since I last did this!
    I'm not taking any side on this. Just asking questions that I don't know the answers to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Governments are inherently bad at business that's why they're politicians


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    But good at seeing that they are alright whichever party they come from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    I don't know much about the various grants or loans that are available and I'm not quite sure what Mike Rush is asking for.
    I can see that the club is not 'closed' but has lost a main income stream in the restrictions of the 'functions' side of things.
    Similar things are happening in large hotels. Still open, but very few guests and no functions, big weddings etc.
    In fact, there must be thousands of businesses who can claim loss of income of one sort or another due to restrictions.
    Can the state realistically be expected to bail them out and keep people in 'work'?
    Is it more efficient, and better for all in the short term to go down the redundancy route, then re-employ staff once things pick up?
    I'm assuming that those made redundant will be able to claim benefits here. Not something I know much about. Much has changed since I last did this!
    I'm not taking any side on this. Just asking questions that I don't know the answers to.
    I don't think anything you say is wrong, but I think Saints is a different proposition to a hotel. They bring a sense of community to the town, they attract a much bigger audience per employee than any hotel. To some extent they will be watched on TV by people that have nothing to do with the club nor the town. Whether or not MR's letter will have any affect is another matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    I don't think anything you say is wrong, but I think Saints is a different proposition to a hotel. They bring a sense of community to the town, they attract a much bigger audience per employee than any hotel. To some extent they will be watched on TV by people that have nothing to do with the club nor the town. Whether or not MR's letter will have any affect is another matter.
    Yes, I see what you mean. I'm still not sure if we can claim some sort of 'special case' though. We're just at one extreme edge of a common problem.

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    What I don’t understand is that I can get on a plane and go to another country and maybe have to self isolate for 2 weeks depending which country I go to, yet I can’t go to watch sport in an open air environment using social distancing measures. Surely getting on a plane with maybe 100 others is far more likely to spread covid than being in a stadium watching sport.
    Last edited by paraman; 30th October 2020 at 11:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    And its a fair bet the majority of deaths are the likes of Agnes who was cracking on 100 and about to die of Parkinsons/pneumonia/heart failure etc...
    It's the usual sheer dishonesty of all this that's brassing me off. All these horrendous figures are just depressing and not really very informative. We keep getting the media telling us how much worse it COULD be in the following weeks. Let's be honest it's like all the media narrative, they cherry pick the "experts " they quote and ignore the rest. Why don't they give us facts? Why not give us the figures for folk who have died of Covid, not the one's who tested positive and were then knocked down by a car or were, as you say, like Agnes 100 plus. It's ridiculous. Are the death rates in the UK higher than usual for the time of year? let's get things in context, just shouting about a disaster isn't helping. You can bet your life that if Covid wasn't here we'd be constantly being told that the NHS was collapsing due to the "usual" flu outbreaks at this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    It's the usual sheer dishonesty of all this that's brassing me off. All these horrendous figures are just depressing and not really very informative. We keep getting the media telling us how much worse it COULD be in the following weeks. Let's be honest it's like all the media narrative, they cherry pick the "experts " they quote and ignore the rest. Why don't they give us facts? Why not give us the figures for folk who have died of Covid, not the one's who tested positive and were then knocked down by a car or were, as you say, like Agnes 100 plus. It's ridiculous. Are the death rates in the UK higher than usual for the time of year? let's get things in context, just shouting about a disaster isn't helping. You can bet your life that if Covid wasn't here we'd be constantly being told that the NHS was collapsing due to the "usual" flu outbreaks at this time.
    Same here, it's really ••••ing me off and only fuels the conspiracy nuts that they're trying to "control"us. Are they ••••, I don't believe that for a second. They're incompetent and self serving but what the hell is to be gained by controlling us if no one has any money to prop the economy up. I do believe though that there's a certain control within the media and we're only fed a certain narrative (that includes Sky Sports). That for me is a big reason why people are so critical of politicians period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    But good at seeing that they are alright whichever party they come from.
    Yes they're good a that as are local politicians I'd suggest


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    Quote Originally Posted by paraman View Post
    What I don’t understand is that I can get on a plane and go to another country and maybe have to self isolate for 2 weeks depending which country I go to, yet I can’t go to watch sport in an open air environment using social distancing measures. Surely getting on a plane with maybe 100 others is far more likely to spread covid than being in a stadium watching sport.
    Not to the scientists apparently


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyprus View Post
    I think you will find I was talking about Cyprus and the cases and zero deaths in that country I find it amazing we are asking people to quarantine returning from that country.

    Point 2. I really care not what you think of my opinion. I have more concern of young families losing livelihoods and our youth being hung out to dry. I will state again I don't want anyone to die but if I believe the economy cannot be ignored and if the cohort dying continues to be at the older end with underlying health conditions it is sad but in pandemics it occurs. I will close on how busy have the nightingale hospitals been? By the way both myself and my wife are key workers although she is far more frontline. So we are entitled to an opinion having worked through it.
    1, Your original post doesn't make that clear.

    2, I'm on day ten of a self isolation period due to a positive test registered in my house by my Daughter. She caught it working as a Staff Nurse on a Corona ward. My wife is another frontline key worker and just for good measure, my previous time off was a year ago as I am also a frontline key worker who was putting in 50-60 hour weeks during the original lockdown March - July. So in the opinion top trumps game I'm more entitled to an opinion.


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    We've interviewed Mike Rush this morning, where he talked openly about the challenges the club faces and that "all we can do is fight to protect the people that work for us"...

    https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/nort...jobs-challenge

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    I think it is difficult for people to get around their own political prejudices regarding anything to do with this (or in fact any) government. The biggest example I have had recently was Brexit, the guy filling up my Facebook feed with the largest amount of anti Brexit posts was a friend that has a business in Lapland. Brexiteers were at different time, stupid, racist, ignorant, and spiteful, he was pretty unrelenting. Then a few weeks after Brexit happened my mate shared a post with some good news. He just got a six figure grant off the EU to build his business. Now I am not saying he was right/wrong with his opinion but I am sure his main motivation for it was the truck load of money on its way from Brussels. Just a small side note may friend has worked his ar*e off to build his business from the ground up and deserves every break he gets.

    However, my point is that peoples opinion on what is happening now is based on their circumstances. If you work in hospitality or own a small business you want to get out there and trade and your opinion is that Covid is a bit of Flu. If you can work from home but have an illness like diabetes or asthma, you probably want the country as locked down as possible and probably get very upset if the government attempts to get you to go outside. Or maybe you just miss the pub a lot.

    The bottom line is the government has to try hit a balance. They need to protect the public and the NHS while not sending the country into crippling debt or bankruptcy. One example to remember is that it took until 2006 for the UK to pay off it debt to the USA for WWII, this shows that an event like COVID could be getting paid off by our children and grand children. There isn't an unlimited pot of money and everyone is struggling.

    Playing devil advocate here, if I was the government responding to Rush's letter I would make a few points.

    1. Didn't the sport get a £16m loan? Where has that gone? Shouldn't that cover you for the time being?

    2. Haven't you just signed a new player for next year on big money. 1 confirmed, 2 rumoured, you would assume these guys are on £100k minimum each. This isn't what a poor company looks like. If you care so much about the hospitality staff maybe you should have kept them on and not signed the Aussie International.

    That being said it sounds like one of the issues are that the company is both a rugby club and hospitality business. Maybe the answer is to have two companies that can each take advantage of the two sets of rules?
    I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noel Cleal View Post
    I think it is difficult for people to get around their own political prejudices regarding anything to do with this (or in fact any) government. The biggest example I have had recently was Brexit, the guy filling up my Facebook feed with the largest amount of anti Brexit posts was a friend that has a business in Lapland. Brexiteers were at different time, stupid, racist, ignorant, and spiteful, he was pretty unrelenting. Then a few weeks after Brexit happened my mate shared a post with some good news. He just got a six figure grant off the EU to build his business. Now I am not saying he was right/wrong with his opinion but I am sure his main motivation for it was the truck load of money on its way from Brussels. Just a small side note may friend has worked his ar*e off to build his business from the ground up and deserves every break he gets.

    However, my point is that peoples opinion on what is happening now is based on their circumstances. If you work in hospitality or own a small business you want to get out there and trade and your opinion is that Covid is a bit of Flu. If you can work from home but have an illness like diabetes or asthma, you probably want the country as locked down as possible and probably get very upset if the government attempts to get you to go outside. Or maybe you just miss the pub a lot.

    The bottom line is the government has to try hit a balance. They need to protect the public and the NHS while not sending the country into crippling debt or bankruptcy. One example to remember is that it took until 2006 for the UK to pay off it debt to the USA for WWII, this shows that an event like COVID could be getting paid off by our children and grand children. There isn't an unlimited pot of money and everyone is struggling.

    Playing devil advocate here, if I was the government responding to Rush's letter I would make a few points.

    1. Didn't the sport get a £16m loan? Where has that gone? Shouldn't that cover you for the time being?

    2. Haven't you just signed a new player for next year on big money. 1 confirmed, 2 rumoured, you would assume these guys are on £100k minimum each. This isn't what a poor company looks like. If you care so much about the hospitality staff maybe you should have kept them on and not signed the Aussie International.

    That being said it sounds like one of the issues are that the company is both a rugby club and hospitality business. Maybe the answer is to have two companies that can each take advantage of the two sets of rules?
    Very good post with a bit of perspective from both sides.

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