Jungle Out There Banner
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 179

Thread: Ian Watson

  1. #101
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,020
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Do people not understand the concept of wishful thinking?

  2. #102
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,267
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    We’re just going to amble along till we lose five or six in a row and then bin him. Covid put paid to that. He wouldn’t have seen May without the game going into lockdown. I think we need to take a bold decision and move quick. You’ve got Lam unsigned for next year, Warrington fans turning on Price and Hull made a play for Watson. I think we face seeing Watson going to Wigan or Wire in the next year or so, do we really fancy that while we bore everyone to sleep?
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

  3. #103
    In The South Stand Greengrass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    In the Queens Arms dreading the King coming home early.
    Posts
    4,293
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    Watson would be a gamble, never managing a big club, but through his achievements with Salford he is probably worth gambling on.
    Personally I am fed up of changing coaches I think it's seven in the past 7 years. at least with Watson he would be here until we said time enough.
    Millward was a gamble wasn't he? But I saw some of the finest rugby I've seen under him the one negative was his option to throw certain games as he thought no team could go through the season unbeaten. Although JH did the same against London.

    Woolfe should have played the First team on Monday and tied up the hub cap instead of thinking we were going to blast Wigan.
    On the Back foot looking for the front one.

  4. #104
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    We’re just going to amble along till we lose five or six in a row and then bin him. Covid put paid to that. He wouldn’t have seen May without the game going into lockdown. I think we need to take a bold decision and move quick. You’ve got Lam unsigned for next year, Warrington fans turning on Price and Hull made a play for Watson. I think we face seeing Watson going to Wigan or Wire in the next year or so, do we really fancy that while we bore everyone to sleep?
    I've never really bought into Watson being the messiah of whichever top club he goes too, for me he could be another Powell but with a much better personality.

  5. #105
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    773
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    He could be another Powell Stiddy of course he could. However when Rowley was available he went and got him. What this tells me he is prepared to work alongside a potential threat to his job and do the best for his club.

    My point earlier is do we keep going overseas? If it works ALA Holbrook they cant wait to get back, if it doesn't ALA Royce you are stuck with someone just here to fill their boots and get a severance. In the case of Watson or lets go left field Scully, you need to give them 3 years and if it is even going just pretty well stick with them. The beauty is they wont be looking elsewhere but Saints.

  6. #106
    In The South Stand Webbo Again's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Refugee from the fascist state of RLFans
    Posts
    4,339
    Rep Power
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Would still let Woolf finish his contractural second year, he hasn't really inherited a great team no Thompson and Percival missing most of the season and an ageing pack past their best.
    On balance, I'd let him have the second year, too.

    With regards to not inheriting a great team, whilst it may not be comparable to one or two unbelievable teams of the past, it's easily the best team & squad in SL. Last season pretty much the same team smashed SL. He's taken us backwards, not just in terms of how good we are, but the playing style.
    I f*cking hate wi*an. And rugby yawnion. And Tories. And Brexit f*ckwits.

  7. #107
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,267
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Would still let Woolf finish his contractural second year, he hasn't really inherited a great team no Thompson and Percival missing most of the season and an ageing pack past their best. He's got 3 or 4 new players coming next season to freshen up that pack and he needs to get Dodd challenging for Fages who is too inconsistent this season.
    He inherited the squad that absolutely walked the competition last year. It was a great team. To suggest its not, is ludicrous.
    St Helens Rugby League Football Club

  8. #108
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    On balance, I'd let him have the second year, too.

    With regards to not inheriting a great team, whilst it may not be comparable to one or two unbelievable teams of the past, it's easily the best team & squad in SL. Last season pretty much the same team smashed SL. He's taken us backwards, not just in terms of how good we are, but the playing style.
    The thing is we have not been average for most of the season. Between rounds 5 and 10 we played brilliant rugby for most of that period who is responsible for that the coach, the players or both.

    For me there was a shift after that in how the opposition worked out a plan to smother our attacking options, Tony Smith from Hull K R started the tactic of targeting our pivots and Walmsley with an extra workload and then quite a few other teams went down the same plan. We couldn't find a counter plan and got drawn into a middles game from then on.

  9. #109
    In The South Stand
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wilts
    Posts
    4,608
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Would still let Woolf finish his contractural second year, he hasn't really inherited a great team no Thompson and Percival missing most of the season and an ageing pack past their best. He's got 3 or 4 new players coming next season to freshen up that pack and he needs to get Dodd challenging for Fages who is too inconsistent this season.
    Hasn’t inherited a great team...? The same one that topped the league by 16 points, won the GF and got to Wembley? Jesus wept.

  10. #110
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    He inherited the squad that absolutely walked the competition last year. It was a great team. To suggest it’s not, is ludicrous.
    Wasn't available though we lost Thompson, Percival, Roby, Makinson, Taia and Coote during the first quarter of the season with Lees in recovery mode............without those that was not a great team
    Last edited by STIDDY; 2nd November 2020 at 10:52.

  11. #111
    In The South Stand Webbo Again's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Refugee from the fascist state of RLFans
    Posts
    4,339
    Rep Power
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    The thing is we have not been average for most of the season. Between rounds 5 and 10 we played brilliant rugby for most of that period who is responsible for that the coach, the players or both.

    For me there was a shift after that in how the opposition worked out a plan to smother our attacking options, Tony Smith from Hull K R started the tactic of targeting our pivots and Walmsley with an extra workload and then quite a few other teams went down the same plan. We couldn't find a counter plan and got drawn into a middles game from then on.

    If you're going to praise the coach for that brief spell of playing good rugby, then you also need to blame him for a failure to 'find a counter plan'.
    I f*cking hate wi*an. And rugby yawnion. And Tories. And Brexit f*ckwits.

  12. #112
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,020
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    My major worry is that he still doesn't know his best side. Welsby is moved around carte blanche, he gives Simm's enough games to get comfortable and used to the league and then drops him, Lomax and Fages are seemingly untouchable even though he has been shouting about how ready Dodd has been all season, then we he does play he shifts him to Hooker. Smith looked to be coming on leaps and bounds and was doing better than Roby in some matches, but he has barely been seen post-lockdown, and now Eaves is the back-up? We have strike players across the backs, but Naiqama only registered his 5th try of the season against Wigan?

    It's not good enough, and the more I think about it, the less I want him to continue.

  13. #113
    In The West Stand Belgian Saint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    7,464
    Rep Power
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton View Post
    My major worry is that he still doesn't know his best side. Welsby is moved around carte blanche, he gives Simm's enough games to get comfortable and used to the league and then drops him, Lomax and Fages are seemingly untouchable even though he has been shouting about how ready Dodd has been all season, then we he does play he shifts him to Hooker. Smith looked to be coming on leaps and bounds and was doing better than Roby in some matches, but he has barely been seen post-lockdown, and now Eaves is the back-up? We have strike players across the backs, but Naiqama only registered his 5th try of the season against Wigan?

    It's not good enough, and the more I think about it, the less I want him to continue.
    You are so right regarding selections.

  14. #114
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    If you're going to praise the coach for that brief spell of playing good rugby, then you also need to blame him for a failure to 'find a counter plan'.
    Well yes I agree but it really isn't down to one man, its players and coaches, Woolf knew he had a job to do and it was going to be much harder to defend a title than it is to win a title.

    I still argue the point though that he inherited a great team, he inherited a knackered one with quite a few players gone past their prime this season. The only players who have played better this season is Walmsley and Makinson all the others are below par compared to last season and that is not all down to tactics.

    Woolf got criticised for using Welsby but Holbrook did exactly the same thing with Richardson in his first full season. I also don't think because we won at a canter last season we were going to do something similar, just doesn't happen these days just look at Castleford one season dominance a couple of seasons back.

    In my opinion Woolf deserves a second season with fresh players and young players challenging for positions, then if we get the same outcomes then he is obviously gone.

  15. #115
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Age
    43
    Posts
    7,638
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    I also don't think because we won at a canter last season we were going to do something similar, just doesn't happen these days just look at Castleford one season dominance a couple of seasons back.
    The rest of the league lowered its standards last year but our 2019 record was W-26 L-4. Our record in 2018 was W-26 L-3, so we did actually replicate our dominance in 2018 in 2019. This was a team that ripped the league apart in Year 1 under Holbrook (and fell short against Wire) and then did exactly the same in Year 2, winning the GF. So I'm not convinced that a team that won 52 out of 59 regular season games in the last two seasons was ripe for a significant dip in 2020.

  16. #116
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,075
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton View Post
    My major worry is that he still doesn't know his best side. Welsby is moved around carte blanche, he gives Simm's enough games to get comfortable and used to the league and then drops him, Lomax and Fages are seemingly untouchable even though he has been shouting about how ready Dodd has been all season, then we he does play he shifts him to Hooker. Smith looked to be coming on leaps and bounds and was doing better than Roby in some matches, but he has barely been seen post-lockdown, and now Eaves is the back-up? We have strike players across the backs, but Naiqama only registered his 5th try of the season against Wigan?

    It's not good enough, and the more I think about it, the less I want him to continue.
    Not sure I buy this. He knows his best team and it wouldn't have either of Welsby or Simm in it, beacuse Percy would be playing centre and everyone including Woolf knows our best back 5.

    He didn't "drop" Simm, we arrived back at a point where we had one space in the backs and he had to pick between Simm and Welsby and he picked Welsby.

    He didn't "drop" Smith for Eaves - Smith wasn't available to play!

    I'm all for constructive criticism but saying he doesn't know what team to play when he is forced into selections by injury is a bit daft.

  17. #117
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    773
    Rep Power
    3

    Default

    Get your point Div. However we are 3 years down the line with basically the same squad and on Friday it did show, especially from the bench.

    The culture of bottling big games has never really changed in the last 10 years. We get praised for a great accademy but I struggle to name one really mongrel forward we have produced since Jammer. With all due respect to Derek Traynor and Ian Talbot is that a gap in their preparation of young players?

  18. #118
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77;804648[B
    ]The rest of the league lowered its standards last year[/B] but our 2019 record was W-26 L-4. Our record in 2018 was W-26 L-3, so we did actually replicate our dominance in 2018 in 2019. This was a team that ripped the league apart in Year 1 under Holbrook (and fell short against Wire) and then did exactly the same in Year 2, winning the GF. So I'm not convinced that a team that won 52 out of 59 regular season games in the last two seasons was ripe for a significant dip in 2020.
    Is it possible the league have raised its standard this year, my argument still stands that our players are not as good individuals this year. Seasons 2018 and 2019 we didn't have a lot of injuries, this year we have and only lost the 1 extra game so far.

    If you are expecting the same dominance for 3 seasons on the trot with a team past its best that's a big ask.

  19. #119
    Learning All The Songs
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,075
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    The rest of the league lowered its standards last year but our 2019 record was W-26 L-4. Our record in 2018 was W-26 L-3, so we did actually replicate our dominance in 2018 in 2019. This was a team that ripped the league apart in Year 1 under Holbrook (and fell short against Wire) and then did exactly the same in Year 2, winning the GF. So I'm not convinced that a team that won 52 out of 59 regular season games in the last two seasons was ripe for a significant dip in 2020.
    We didn't have the WCC to contend with in either year and I don't think anyone can argue Wigan are not significantly stronger than last year. Also worth pointing out that we aren't out of the play-offs yet and I certainly wouldn't swap our squad or coach for wigan's. We have as good a chance as anyone, if not better, of ending up as champions.

    Also worth remembering the dominant 2018 Saints team watched Wire win the CC and Wigan win the GF.

    One could make an argument for the 2019 win owing a chunk to Wire (who beat us soundly at Wembley) somehow getting dumped out of the play-offs by Cas such that we had a final vs Salford.

    Friday wasn't great by any stretch but we have been coasting for a long time now and it might just have been the intense, nasty-ish game we needed to start the run-in towards retaining the title.

  20. #120
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    573
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dos Cervezas View Post
    He inherited the squad that absolutely walked the competition last year. It was a great team. To suggest its not, is ludicrous.
    What has amused me (in a frustrated kind of way) slightly more than the normal positivity of any new signing is that they're primarily all forwards. Now we might need forwards you decide and you may also think that our development & succession plans are robust in the areas covering the back line. For me it simply reinforces the fact that he doesn't have a single clue or interest in the whole of the back line. You might suggest I'm picking fault again but can anyone show me any credible reference or even a comment he's ever made about the back line plans or game play or direction of travel? This at a time when we're void of ideas & incapable of putting on a single set play save for another inside pass with no controlling influence in the middle.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #121
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    573
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon Sexton View Post
    My major worry is that he still doesn't know his best side. Welsby is moved around carte blanche, he gives Simm's enough games to get comfortable and used to the league and then drops him, Lomax and Fages are seemingly untouchable even though he has been shouting about how ready Dodd has been all season, then we he does play he shifts him to Hooker. Smith looked to be coming on leaps and bounds and was doing better than Roby in some matches, but he has barely been seen post-lockdown, and now Eaves is the back-up? We have strike players across the backs, but Naiqama only registered his 5th try of the season against Wigan?

    It's not good enough, and the more I think about it, the less I want him to continue.
    Good post no arguments from me save for surely the effect and influence of Coote has been largely lost on account of it all.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #122
    Starting A Programme Collection
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    573
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    Not sure I buy this. He knows his best team and it wouldn't have either of Welsby or Simm in it, beacuse Percy would be playing centre and everyone including Woolf knows our best back 5.

    He didn't "drop" Simm, we arrived back at a point where we had one space in the backs and he had to pick between Simm and Welsby and he picked Welsby.

    He didn't "drop" Smith for Eaves - Smith wasn't available to play!

    I'm all for constructive criticism but saying he doesn't know what team to play when he is forced into selections by injury is a bit daft.
    Unfortunately there will always be injuries so it shouldn't be a surprise it's just that there doesn't seem to be any credible management of the situation when they happen.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #123
    In The South Stand STIDDY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Kingdom of Wigoon
    Posts
    4,857
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    What has amused me (in a frustrated kind of way) slightly more than the normal positivity of any new signing is that they're primarily all forwards. Now we might need forwards you decide and you may also think that our development & succession plans are robust in the areas covering the back line. For me it simply reinforces the fact that he doesn't have a single clue or interest in the whole of the back line. You might suggest I'm picking fault again but can anyone show me any credible reference or even a comment he's ever made about the back line plans or game play or direction of travel? This at a time when we're void of ideas & incapable of putting on a single set play save for another inside pass with no controlling influence in the middle.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's a difficult one, we have Percival, Fages and Lomax more or less shooting blanks at the moment. He's got Simm, Dodd and Welsby but with limitation compared to those 3 experienced pro's

  24. #124
    In The South Stand
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,894
    Rep Power
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    What has amused me (in a frustrated kind of way) slightly more than the normal positivity of any new signing is that they're primarily all forwards. Now we might need forwards you decide and you may also think that our development & succession plans are robust in the areas covering the back line. For me it simply reinforces the fact that he doesn't have a single clue or interest in the whole of the back line. You might suggest I'm picking fault again but can anyone show me any credible reference or even a comment he's ever made about the back line plans or game play or direction of travel? This at a time when we're void of ideas & incapable of putting on a single set play save for another inside pass with no controlling influence in the middle.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If the problem is older and increasingly more ineffective forwards,you don't fix it by mentioning the backs. Fix upfront and our go forward and the rest will fall into place.

  25. #125
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Macclesfield
    Age
    43
    Posts
    7,638
    Rep Power
    27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FearTheVee View Post
    We didn't have the WCC to contend with in either year and I don't think anyone can argue Wigan are not significantly stronger than last year. Also worth pointing out that we aren't out of the play-offs yet and I certainly wouldn't swap our squad or coach for wigan's. We have as good a chance as anyone, if not better, of ending up as champions.

    Also worth remembering the dominant 2018 Saints team watched Wire win the CC and Wigan win the GF.

    One could make an argument for the 2019 win owing a chunk to Wire (who beat us soundly at Wembley) somehow getting dumped out of the play-offs by Cas such that we had a final vs Salford.

    Friday wasn't great by any stretch but we have been coasting for a long time now and it might just have been the intense, nasty-ish game we needed to start the run-in towards retaining the title.
    I agree with this and Stiddy’s point above as well. Of course we’ve fallen back into the pack and there was no way we were going to win the league by 16 points, because that only happened last year because the rest of the teams gave up trying to catch us really. I also agree that playing Salford in the GF aided us massively, I don’t disagree, and yes, our record in big knock games against teams beginning with W is horrendous and has been for years, no doubt.

    But I’m not really arguing about that, I’m arguing for the fact that we don’t look as good of a team this season. Loads of reasons can be used for this, like injuries, the lockdown, no fans, etc. All valid, but everyone else has had those problems so I’m not sure why we should get to use it as a reason for our (IMO) quite significant dip in performance and style in 2020. We were not right before the lockdown, we seemed to be fitter and better prepared for the restart and really reaped the rewards in August, then we’ve gone back to where we were pre lockdown really.

    Wigan and Wire are better than they were last season in terms of week to week consistency, but nobody else is really pulling up trees, and to be fair neither of those two have really been great at any stage either. Our record is decent, it’s nothing to worry about in isolation, and yes, I agree with posters that say we have a decent chance of winning the GF, and I hope I’ve made the point several times on here that my issue isn’t results and our chances of silverware because I don’t worry about either of those things too much.

    But the reason I don’t worry about them because I believe we have the best team, so I’m looking at this from the point of view that we have the best team but we’re only really ‘decent’. We have a decent record, we have a decent chance, etc. The last two seasons we’ve been way above decent, and whilst we messed up some big games we had journeys to those big games that revitalised the club and the fanbase. It became fun again after the missed years of KC, and 2020 has felt like 2018 and 2019 were the exception and not the norm in terms of the enjoyment we all got from watching us play. 2020 was always going to end up strange and a lot less fun because of the situation, but I don’t think Woolf would have done much differently if we’d had crowds and the season had already finished. We’d have been decent, we may have won a GF, but as a journey from A-Z it would have been far below what we would have hoped for.

    As I’ve said before, am I taken with Woolf? Not at all. Can we win a GF under him? Definitely. For some only the second question counts, and that’s fair enough. But when we have the best team and had a coach that we were all taken with, I’m not sure it’s asking too much for the answers of both questions to be positive.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •