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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    My medical friends are furious about the idea that we might just abandon our attempts to suppress the virus. All of them say full release will cause tens of thousands to die prematurely; and they all point to the fact that suppression is possible. Look at New Zealand.
    NZ isn't anywhere like here. It's in effect the end of a cul-de-sac,nobody passes through, you are heading there & there alone, the population is also sparse. A lot of farming takes place for example. If they've suppressed it, no doubt it will return. Therefore I'd argue their controls have achieved nothing in reality. Here we have 1000 people per day dying of cancer and heart disease who are having treatment suspended. Last time I looked Covid deaths were 24th in our league table of causal deaths level with accidental deaths in the home. Next week they're grouping Covid with flu for reporting purposes. Our economy is shot to pieces for something 24th in the list. Cases are irrelevant, many people don't know they've had it, it's deaths that count which makes all of this ridiculous.
    Protect the vulnerable and open up the economy. Oh and a few months ago masks don't work they said, which they don't, now they're enforcing them. Masks are nothing to do with Covid virus's.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    But consequence of another total lockdown will be we will abandon the cancer checks, the ECGs etc, thus allowing potentially curable conditions to become deadly. We saw that in the last lockdown, non Covid deaths where higher than normal.

    When the pubs and restaurants opened in july august the infection rate was rising very slowly and not concerning. The big jump came when schools and universities opened, so why close pubs, just because you can’t close eduction.

    People have been told how to minimise you chances of catching Covid, so just avoid places where social distancing is not possible avoid crowded inside spaces.

    What will another full lockdown achieve? Less Covid deaths probably , More non Covid deaths certainly Because that’s what happens last time. Add to that millions of people’s livelihoods destroyed.
    No-one disputes that lockdown caused, and will cause if we have it again, avoidable non-Covid premature deaths. To date they are fewer than the Covid deaths. If suppression of Covid is not prioritised those non-Covid deaths will also rise, because we do not have the medical expertise to care for both Covid and non-Covid patients in clinical settings. That point is where I started my reply to Saddened, who advocated releasing all controls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    NZ isn't anywhere like here. It's in effect the end of a cul-de-sac,nobody passes through, you are heading there & there alone, the population is also sparse. A lot of farming takes place for example. If they've suppressed it, no doubt it will return. Therefore I'd argue their controls have achieved nothing in reality. Here we have 1000 people per day dying of cancer and heart disease who are having treatment suspended. Last time I looked Covid deaths were 24th in our league table of causal deaths level with accidental deaths in the home. Next week they're grouping Covid with flu for reporting purposes. Our economy is shot to pieces for something 24th in the list. Cases are irrelevant, many people don't know they've had it, it's deaths that count which makes all of this ridiculous.
    Protect the vulnerable and open up the economy. Oh and a few months ago masks don't work they said, which they don't, now they're enforcing them. Masks are nothing to do with Covid virus's.


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    Masks do inhibit the spread of the virus. My wearing one might not protect me, but it will protect you. Places where there have been the lowest number of Covid deaths all have an effective test, track and trace system. That’s the most important factor in NZ’s success, not its geographical characteristics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    Masks do inhibit the spread of the virus. My wearing one might not protect me, but it will protect you. Places where there have been the lowest number of Covid deaths all have an effective test, track and trace system. That’s the most important factor in NZ’s success, not its geographical characteristics.
    Maybe, but geography and population must be important factors. The population of Merseyside, Cheshire and Greater Manchester combined is higher than the population of New Zealand, so imagine if the government could dedicate all its resources to those three counties with nobody else to worry about, hardly anyone coming in or out, and situated a thousand miles away from anywhere else. That’s what the NZ government was able to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    Masks do inhibit the spread of the virus. My wearing one might not protect me, but it will protect you. Places where there have been the lowest number of Covid deaths all have an effective test, track and trace system. Thats the most important factor in NZs success, not its geographical characteristics.
    I'll explain as I've worn lots of masks in the Forces for over 10 years, all sorts. In the immediacy of contact, if worn correctly & it fits I will not stop a virus but it will prevent the transfer of mucus carrying the virus, so yes it will, slightly. However masks need managing which is where they fail.
    Someone goes to a pub in a mask, sits down and removes it & puts it on their table or their pocket. The pocket is contaminated, as is the table, droplets have hit the floor as the mask is moved, hair is contaminated as is your hands. Alternatively they go home in their designer or home made mask and throw it on the kitchen table. ........An N95 mask as do others have a wear life. Sometimes 30 mins maybe 2 hours then they're contaminated via your moist exhaled breath, they then store bacteria and induce bacterial infections (as is now prevalent in schools) or pneumonia. I could go on for a few pages but you see the point, masks work at a point in time but mostly they don't.

    At the start of this the medics said masks don't work, now they've had their minds changed. Read Agenda 21 or Event 201 or the Rockerfeller file that's been leaked.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Woolyback View Post
    The few pubs and club that I've been in since the last lockdown have done their absolute best to comply with all the conditions as have the vast majority of customers, I just hope that if St Helens figures improve we won't have to wait for the Liverpool City Centre figures to also improve because the mass testing of the students mean that won't be any time soon, probably a short reprieve in December, I really hope I'm wrong. That's the problem with our borough politicians deciding to link with Liverpool
    https://mobile.twitter.com/MetroMayo...736320/photo/1

    Rotheram has posted this to tell the media and any others that his area of responsibility is about 1.5 million others who do not live in Liverpool!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackbit View Post
    https://mobile.twitter.com/MetroMayo...736320/photo/1

    Rotheram has posted this to tell the media and any others that his area of responsibility is about 1.5 million others who do not live in Liverpool!
    We shoildn't be in the Liverpool.city region

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackbit View Post
    https://mobile.twitter.com/MetroMayo...736320/photo/1

    Rotheram has posted this to tell the media and any others that his area of responsibility is about 1.5 million others who do not live in Liverpool!
    Tell you all that you need to know about the Liverpool City Region

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulscnthorpe View Post
    Spot on about a number of points, the MPs demanded a vote on the rule of six, and when they got the vote, they voted 287 vs 17 in favour.. the government can do what they want and nobody is questioning it, I've heard our two regional mayors demand another lockdown, then complain the financial package was insufficient..

    On the rules, since Cummings all good grace was lost with the government, most believed the government where doing their best on the science until that point. Now we've got different rules for different areas, people not realising we're a part of this mythical Liverpool City Region, so no wonder people don't realise.

    For what it's worth, I believe the previous measure in August was a happy medium, social distancing, wear masks, and a rule of six is probably a good balance that most will comply with
    Me too, it was a good compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    But consequence of another total lockdown will be we will abandon the cancer checks, the ECGs etc, thus allowing potentially curable conditions to become deadly. We saw that in the last lockdown, non Covid deaths where higher than normal.

    When the pubs and restaurants opened in july august the infection rate was rising very slowly and not concerning. The big jump came when schools and universities opened, so why close pubs, just because you can’t close eduction.

    People have been told how to minimise you chances of catching Covid, so just avoid places where social distancing is not possible avoid crowded inside spaces.

    What will another full lockdown achieve? Less Covid deaths probably , More non Covid deaths certainly Because that’s what happens last time. Add to that millions of people’s livelihoods destroyed.
    Why can't you close education? They're happy enough to close everything else when it suits only the difference being, that when someone's livelihood is destroyed, it's generally very difficult to recover, once we have some kind of vaccine in place, then get the kids back to school and if it takes them and extra year or 2 then hard luck, we've all made sacrifices. I know that may sound cynical but the correlation is clear, and that's what I was getting at earlier about the truth being told. And before anyone states the obvious I'm well aware there's problems to overcome with childcare etc if schools were closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    NZ isn't anywhere like here. It's in effect the end of a cul-de-sac,nobody passes through, you are heading there & there alone, the population is also sparse. A lot of farming takes place for example. If they've suppressed it, no doubt it will return. Therefore I'd argue their controls have achieved nothing in reality. Here we have 1000 people per day dying of cancer and heart disease who are having treatment suspended. Last time I looked Covid deaths were 24th in our league table of causal deaths level with accidental deaths in the home. Next week they're grouping Covid with flu for reporting purposes. Our economy is shot to pieces for something 24th in the list. Cases are irrelevant, many people don't know they've had it, it's deaths that count which makes all of this ridiculous.
    Protect the vulnerable and open up the economy. Oh and a few months ago masks don't work they said, which they don't, now they're enforcing them. Masks are nothing to do with Covid virus's.


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    How do you know masks don't work, why the would we constantly be told to wear them if they didn't do some good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Maybe, but geography and population must be important factors. The population of Merseyside, Cheshire and Greater Manchester combined is higher than the population of New Zealand, so imagine if the government could dedicate all its resources to those three counties with nobody else to worry about, hardly anyone coming in or out, and situated a thousand miles away from anywhere else. That’s what the NZ government was able to do.
    South Korea, population 51 million, 432 deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    How do you know masks don't work, why the would we constantly be told to wear them if they didn't do some good?
    I've tried to offer an overview in #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I'll explain as I've worn lots of masks in the Forces for over 10 years, all sorts. In the immediacy of contact, if worn correctly & it fits I will not stop a virus but it will prevent the transfer of mucus carrying the virus, so yes it will, slightly. However masks need managing which is where they fail.
    Someone goes to a pub in a mask, sits down and removes it & puts it on their table or their pocket. The pocket is contaminated, as is the table, droplets have hit the floor as the mask is moved, hair is contaminated as is your hands. Alternatively they go home in their designer or home made mask and throw it on the kitchen table. ........An N95 mask as do others have a wear life. Sometimes 30 mins maybe 2 hours then they're contaminated via your moist exhaled breath, they then store bacteria and induce bacterial infections (as is now prevalent in schools) or pneumonia. I could go on for a few pages but you see the point, masks work at a point in time but mostly they don't.

    At the start of this the medics said masks don't work, now they've had their minds changed. Read Agenda 21 or Event 201 or the Rockerfeller file that's been leaked.


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    At the start of the pandemic a minority of medics thought that mask wearing would not be effective. The majority thought, and think, that mask wearing (with all the caveats) prevents transmission better than not wearing masks.

    None of this is about absolutes, it’s about probability and political choices. Whatever we do now members of our families, friends and neighbours - perhaps the person who sits next to you on match day - are going to die. We can reduce the death toll, but reopening the economy in the manner Saddened suggested will kill more of us than suppressing the virus will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I can believe that as they're generally a pretty spineless lot but that goes for almost all politicians whatever the party. I mean surely the approach needs to be fluid as we don't know a great deal about the virus but it needs someone with a backbone to stand up and say something along the lines of "well that's the situation we were in last week, that's now changed and on the best advise, we will now do X,Y & Z". I guess they have done to a certain extent but a lot of these rules have been contradictory, confusing and poorly advised IMO. I also think it could be policed better, there's lots of people out of work at the moment, get them out and get them giving people a kick up the arse to put their masks on/social distance.
    I think you could be speaking for more than just the UK with those comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I've tried to offer an overview in #30


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    I agree with you to a point having also worn many types of masks and done face fit on numerous occasions. However, it they're such a problem/ineffective as you say then why are we constantly told to wear them? That was my question, not how effective they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Maybe, but geography and population must be important factors. The population of Merseyside, Cheshire and Greater Manchester combined is higher than the population of New Zealand, so imagine if the government could dedicate all its resources to those three counties with nobody else to worry about, hardly anyone coming in or out, and situated a thousand miles away from anywhere else. That’s what the NZ government was able to do.
    With NZ having a factor of approx 5-1 Sheep to people, they had better hope it doesn't cross species

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    At the start of the pandemic a minority of medics thought that mask wearing would not be effective. The majority thought, and think, that mask wearing (with all the caveats) prevents transmission better than not wearing masks.

    None of this is about absolutes, its about probability and political choices. Whatever we do now members of our families, friends and neighbours - perhaps the person who sits next to you on match day - are going to die. We can reduce the death toll, but reopening the economy in the manner Saddened suggested will kill more of us than suppressing the virus will.
    When would you expect the circa 50 daily Covid deaths that are pretty flat to approach anywhere near the 500 daily cancer or 500 daily CHD deaths that already continue to take place where the sufferers in many cases have had their clinical support curtailed? Covid deaths, which is the important metric are relatively low, 24th in fact a few days ago. BTW suicides are increasing, can't think why.

    Is there a virus yes, is it affecting people yes, are the control measures causing more harm than the actual virus yes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    How do you know masks don't work, why the •••• would we constantly be told to wear them if they didn't do some good?
    The original. Post was right. The reason behind the change in advice is that when you see everyone wearing masks it subconsciously make you modify your behaviour. Mask for shopping, etc are basically a big red flag to tell people we aren't over this yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    When would you expect the circa 50 daily Covid deaths that are pretty flat to approach anywhere near the 500 daily cancer or 500 daily CHD deaths that already continue to take place where the sufferers in many cases have had their clinical support curtailed? Covid deaths, which is the important metric are relatively low, 24th in fact a few days ago. BTW suicides are increasing, can't think why.

    Is there a virus yes, is it affecting people yes, are the control measures causing more harm than the actual virus yes.


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    Now that I do agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I agree with you to a point having also worn many types of masks and done face fit on numerous occasions. However, it they're such a problem/ineffective as you say then why are we constantly told to wear them? That was my question, not how effective they are.
    I feel that masks do work, and they have been compulsory here since the end of lockdown. I never go out without one except on the golf course where we maintain our distance. However we are in a worse situation in terms of number of cases than when we started the earlier lockdown. Whether or not people in work are wearing them I don't know, but the virus is out of control here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Why can't you close education? They're happy enough to close everything else when it suits only the difference being, that when someone's livelihood is destroyed, it's generally very difficult to recover, once we have some kind of vaccine in place, then get the kids back to school and if it takes them and extra year or 2 then hard luck, we've all made sacrifices. I know that may sound cynical but the correlation is clear, and that's what I was getting at earlier about the truth being told. And before anyone states the obvious I'm well aware there's problems to overcome with childcare etc if schools were closed.
    Good point, why not close eduction and just hold every student back one year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    Why can't you close education? They're happy enough to close everything else when it suits only the difference being, that when someone's livelihood is destroyed, it's generally very difficult to recover, once we have some kind of vaccine in place, then get the kids back to school and if it takes them and extra year or 2 then hard luck, we've all made sacrifices. I know that may sound cynical but the correlation is clear, and that's what I was getting at earlier about the truth being told. And before anyone states the obvious I'm well aware there's problems to overcome with childcare etc if schools were closed.
    The problem is we may never find a vaccine or it could take years. What do you do then? Keep the kids away from school forever? It's unsustainable and will impact parents ability to work as they'll be home schooling.

    We've got to strike a balance between health and balancing the economy, education etc by carrying on as normal as we can. Covid isn't going away anytime soon, so we just have to make things as safe as possible and ensure the economy is ticking over, otherwise the country will suffer much worse than deaths due to Covid.

    A big problem that I can see is the government have handled this crisis very poorly. Their measures have been inconsistent and lacked simplicity leading to confusion. They had 3-4 months to plan children and young adults going back to school and Uni but didn't provide enough guidance and a strict enough plan for it to work. As a result the infection rate has increased and Schools and Universities now account for 35% of Covid infections in the UK. That's before you even get to the shambles that is the track and trace system and the testing system we have in place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post

    Is there a virus yes, is it affecting people yes, are the control measures causing more harm than the actual virus yes.

    Agreed. Im worried theres social unrest on the way........

    On an aside, theres a cancer (among other illnesses) timebomb waiting to go off and it will make COVID look like a stubbed toe......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blobbynator View Post
    The problem is we may never find a vaccine or it could take years. What do you do then? Keep the kids away from school forever? It's unsustainable and will impact parents ability to work as they'll be home schooling.

    We've got to strike a balance between health and balancing the economy, education etc by carrying on as normal as we can. Covid isn't going away anytime soon, so we just have to make things as safe as possible and ensure the economy is ticking over, otherwise the country will suffer much worse than deaths due to Covid.

    A big problem that I can see is the government have handled this crisis very poorly. Their measures have been inconsistent and lacked simplicity leading to confusion. They had 3-4 months to plan children and young adults going back to school and Uni but didn't provide enough guidance and a strict enough plan for it to work. As a result the infection rate has increased and Schools and Universities now account for 35% of Covid infections in the UK. That's before you even get to the shambles that is the track and trace system and the testing system we have in place.
    Point taken. I didn't say I had all the answers and there isn't a perfect solution. It's a good discussion to have though.

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