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Thread: Lockdown

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    So why - through the election of Trump and Bozo, and the support for Brexit - have working class/blue collar people turned to right-wing parties and policies to provide the solutions to their problems?
    Brexit is not intrinsically 'right wing', as Tony Benn would tell you if he was still alive. Corbyn was always anti-EU, as were most of his inner circle before the party made him compromise. Was Tony Benn right wing, is Corbyn? Why were they so suspicious of the EU if it is some grand left wing project? Is 'flag waving' Scottish nationalism right wing? It's been around for decades and hasn't been born because of Brexit. Are Catalans and Basque independence campaigns right wing? The desire to free yourself from a greater lump that you no longer think works for your benefit is as old as it gets. Why is it that when English people seek it it becomes right wing?

    As for your question, it's being asked by alot of people on each side of the Atlantic. Could it be that working class people just don't think that Labour and the Democrats care about them anymore? They did a survey of Labour members back in Jan, and only 12% said that the party's main focus should be standing up for ordinary working class people and their values. The party now doesn't think working class people are a group that they should focus attention on, because they do not fit within the modern 'identity politics' ladder of oppression. If the people in the party don't think that representing and standing up for working class people and their values should be their main focus, what is the actual point of the Labour Party? The Tories and the Lib Dems very much prioritise the rights and aspirations of the middle and upper classes, so why does the Labour Party exist if not to better the chances of the people that need them the most?

    This is why Corbynism took root in the party, because it now has a membership that is comfortably middle class (around 75% in the ABC1 demographic) and doesn't actually need a Labour government to make their lives better, so they persisted with playing purity power politics with internal enemies whilst the working classes looked away. This has been happening for 25 years, read Paul Embery's stuff on this. He's a firefighter, union activist, Labour member and he barely recognises Labour as a party of the working classes anymore. I attended many meetings and put my heart and soul into the party and realised people were more interested in which wing of the party won a seat on the NEC than they ever were about working class issues. Who are the people who deride Brexit voters the most? The great and good of the Labour liberal establishment. The people it should be fighting for, or at least trying to win back, derided as racists, bigots, etc. That probably shows you why alot just turned their backs and went the other way.

    Am I happy about that? No, I'm actually heartbroken that the party lost touch with people so much that they opted to vote Tory just to keep Labour out. But it happened, and Labour and its members and supporters deserved it.

    PS - I'd be keen on keeping this open as an off-topic politics thread post Covid, it's fun even if we do all end up squabbling!

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    When we come out of Lockdown and Brexit hopefully we can buy British, build British, promote the British brand to kickstart the economy without flying the Nationalism Flag which doesn't wash with some.

    I guess we still manufacture crisps.

    And assemble Russel Hobbs toasters (from Chinese-made parts)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Brexit is not intrinsically 'right wing', as Tony Benn would tell you if he was still alive. Corbyn was always anti-EU, as were most of his inner circle before the party made him compromise. Was Tony Benn right wing, is Corbyn? Why were they so suspicious of the EU if it is some grand left wing project? Is 'flag waving' Scottish nationalism right wing? It's been around for decades and hasn't been born because of Brexit. Are Catalans and Basque independence campaigns right wing? The desire to free yourself from a greater lump that you no longer think works for your benefit is as old as it gets. Why is it that when English people seek it it becomes right wing?
    We are ending up in agreement,

    but to context the SNP. They started off as a left wing party, since that’s where the Scottish votes are, but if you look at their ‘achievements ‘ for over a decade of power in Scotland then they are pretty thin. Scotland for all the SNPs left leaning claims, still has the same socio-economic depravation as the rest of the UK, so to deflect from their failings in towns like Cummbernauld (Skem), Falkirk(Wigan),Kirkcaldy(St Helens by the sea), they start the nationalist sabre rattling. The name Tartan Tories is beginning to stick on them.

    Aside from that Brexit/ Nationalism isn’t right wing per-se but it is used to hide the failing of governments (left and right)

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    Default Lockdown

    Enjoying this thread and don't want to derail things but I have a specific question relating to lockdown. Does anyone know how many testing stations there are in StHelens and how many tests are claimed to have been done in total say in the last week or more? Failing that info maybe done at Parr Stocks Fire Station site specifically?

    I've been seeing lots of photos from people highlighting empty testing stations across the country but difficult to validate. Does anyone know how many tests are being carried out at Parr Stocks? It seems very strange for an area previously on Tier3 and the highest infection rates in the region according to reports today to not see many people being tested unless the focus is on other sites?


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    Last edited by WalkieTalkie; 6th November 2020 at 17:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    We are ending up in agreement,

    but to context the SNP. They started off as a left wing party, since that’s where the Scottish votes are, but if you look at their ‘achievements ‘ for over a decade of power in Scotland then they are pretty thin. Scotland for all the SNPs left leaning claims, still has the same socio-economic depravation as the rest of the UK, so to deflect from their failings in towns like Cummbernauld (Skem), Falkirk(Wigan),Kirkcaldy(St Helens by the sea), they start the nationalist sabre rattling. The name Tartan Tories is beginning to stick on them.

    Aside from that Brexit/ Nationalism isn’t right wing per-se but it is used to hide the failing of governments (left and right)
    Most definitely. And yes, we're agreeing, how boring! ;-)

    On the SNP, did you see the Andrew Neil bit on the BBC yesterday?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P68kbF6t18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Most definitely. And yes, we're agreeing, how boring! ;-)

    On the SNP, did you see the Andrew Neil bit on the BBC yesterday?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P68kbF6t18
    Yes and it needed saying, but Wee Jimmy Krankie and Shagger Salmon can just blame England and those poor people will lap it up. The SNP were a sacred cow with most of Scotland ( any criticism of them and you would be roundly abused on social media most of it downright xenophobic) but after over ten years of nothing really changing and blaming England, Scotland is slowly starting to wake up.

    To derail the thread a bit more.

    I alway find it so ironic that the SNP want independence from England, where they have a disproportionate influence on policies, and yet want to join Europe where they will have no influence on policies. There is no other reason to this than reason than political dogwhistling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Yes and it needed saying, but Wee Jimmy Krankie and Shagger Salmon can just blame England and those poor people will lap it up. The SNP were a sacred cow with most of Scotland ( any criticism of them and you would be roundly abused on social media most of it downright xenophobic) but after over ten years of nothing really changing and blaming England, Scotland is slowly starting to wake up.

    To derail the thread a bit more.

    I alway find it so ironic that the SNP want independence from England, where they have a disproportionate influence on policies, and yet want to join Europe where they will have no influence on policies. There is no other reason to this than reason than political dogwhistling.
    Yes. Sturgeon got on to the debates before the last election and received zero examinations of SNP policy because all people wanted to ask her about was independence. And when we had the last referendum the SNP believed that it would have had the right to impose its own post-independence bill of rights which would have become the Scots modern day magna carta, written exclusively by one political party that has never won a majority of votes in Scotland.

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    Who’s betting covid suddenly evaporates and life goes back to normal overnight just as soon as they get Trump out of office?
    screaming in the family corner, scaring the kiddies

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Who’s betting covid suddenly evaporates and life goes back to normal overnight just as soon as they get Trump out of office?
    There are a great many people saying exactly the same thing as you. March continually pops up as the conclusion date with the extension of UK furlough payments extended through until then throwing more fuel on that fire.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Yes and it needed saying, but Wee Jimmy Krankie and Shagger Salmon can just blame England and those poor people will lap it up. The SNP were a sacred cow with most of Scotland ( any criticism of them and you would be roundly abused on social media most of it downright xenophobic) but after over ten years of nothing really changing and blaming England, Scotland is slowly starting to wake up.

    To derail the thread a bit more.

    I alway find it so ironic that the SNP want independence from England, where they have a disproportionate influence on policies, and yet want to join Europe where they will have no influence on policies. There is no other reason to this than reason than political dogwhistling.
    SNP have never been a "nationalist" party, they've just been an anti English party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    SNP have never been a "nationalist" party, they've just been an anti English party.
    BoJo should give them an independent referendum in the New Year, with all the uncertainty of the Covid/Brexit issues I reckon the SNP would crawl back under their rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishy3005 View Post
    Who’s betting covid suddenly evaporates and life goes back to normal overnight just as soon as they get Trump out of office?
    There are many quotes from Democrats and examples on social media prior to Covid that they'd "need a recession to get Trump out". Then along comes one from China with love. Pretty rich that they and the MSM are moaning about Trump contesting the results as all through his Presidency they've brought unfounded charges against him, from Russian collusion to conservative judges accused of being teenage rapists (but weren't!) to pornstar Stormy Daniels, who ended up sueing her own Lawyer! It's the same here. Politicians who fought on and on against Brexit after the result now castigate Trump for doing the same over his election (except he may have a case!). Personally I like this one:" I'm digusted at my Grandfather. He voted for Biden. He'd always voted republican whilst he was alive."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prez View Post
    There are many quotes from Democrats and examples on social media prior to Covid that they'd "need a recession to get Trump out". Then along comes one from China with love. Pretty rich that they and the MSM are moaning about Trump contesting the results as all through his Presidency they've brought unfounded charges against him, from Russian collusion to conservative judges accused of being teenage rapists (but weren't!) to pornstar Stormy Daniels, who ended up sueing her own Lawyer! It's the same here. Politicians who fought on and on against Brexit after the result now castigate Trump for doing the same over his election (except he may have a case!). Personally I like this one:" I'm digusted at my Grandfather. He voted for Biden. He'd always voted republican whilst he was alive."
    Read today that the US Amish community haven't had a single person infected with Covid-19, when one of their leaders was asked why he thought that was he said, easy we don't have TV's.

    May be an ounce of truth in this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Brexit is not intrinsically 'right wing', as Tony Benn would tell you if he was still alive. Corbyn was always anti-EU, as were most of his inner circle before the party made him compromise. Was Tony Benn right wing, is Corbyn? Why were they so suspicious of the EU if it is some grand left wing project? Is 'flag waving' Scottish nationalism right wing? It's been around for decades and hasn't been born because of Brexit. Are Catalans and Basque independence campaigns right wing? The desire to free yourself from a greater lump that you no longer think works for your benefit is as old as it gets. Why is it that when English people seek it it becomes right wing?

    As for your question, it's being asked by alot of people on each side of the Atlantic. Could it be that working class people just don't think that Labour and the Democrats care about them anymore? They did a survey of Labour members back in Jan, and only 12% said that the party's main focus should be standing up for ordinary working class people and their values. The party now doesn't think working class people are a group that they should focus attention on, because they do not fit within the modern 'identity politics' ladder of oppression. If the people in the party don't think that representing and standing up for working class people and their values should be their main focus, what is the actual point of the Labour Party? The Tories and the Lib Dems very much prioritise the rights and aspirations of the middle and upper classes, so why does the Labour Party exist if not to better the chances of the people that need them the most?

    This is why Corbynism took root in the party, because it now has a membership that is comfortably middle class (around 75% in the ABC1 demographic) and doesn't actually need a Labour government to make their lives better, so they persisted with playing purity power politics with internal enemies whilst the working classes looked away. This has been happening for 25 years, read Paul Embery's stuff on this. He's a firefighter, union activist, Labour member and he barely recognises Labour as a party of the working classes anymore. I attended many meetings and put my heart and soul into the party and realised people were more interested in which wing of the party won a seat on the NEC than they ever were about working class issues. Who are the people who deride Brexit voters the most? The great and good of the Labour liberal establishment. The people it should be fighting for, or at least trying to win back, derided as racists, bigots, etc. That probably shows you why alot just turned their backs and went the other way.

    Am I happy about that? No, I'm actually heartbroken that the party lost touch with people so much that they opted to vote Tory just to keep Labour out. But it happened, and Labour and its members and supporters deserved it.

    PS - I'd be keen on keeping this open as an off-topic politics thread post Covid, it's fun even if we do all end up squabbling!
    This is the crux of it for me; when Labour lost seats such as Leigh it was because Labour seemed more interested in the politics of South America, red win conversations in Islingdon about the front page of The Guardian and discussions over environment and green policy. Whilst some of these things are worthy topics, the reality is the working class, especially in industrialised areas, has felt marginalised and 'represented' by a party which seems a million miles away from their reality. Lets face it, Dave in Leigh cares more about his job and the cost of a pint than say the struggles of Evo Morales.

    You'd have been considered out of your mind if you predicted that say even 5 years ago Leigh would go to the Tories, but things like Brexit and the rise of mavericks like Johnson (and in the US, Trump) created an impression amongst this group that they had a bonafide chance to give the 'old' political elite a kick up the arse. That these people are products and beneficiaries of the same system these thicko's thought they were kicking is another point, but the fact remains it was almost a protest vote - don't forget about us.

    I've seen the Embrey stuff. Its bang on in terms of articulating blue collar frustrations in the face of 'Liberal Labour; I’ve seen this type of thinking first hand at work - been peppered with BLM, identity empathy and stuff like that in a manner that is as patronising as it is pretentious. Its a massive turn off for most but especially blue collar workers.
    Last edited by eddiewaringsflatcap; 7th November 2020 at 18:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    Read today that the US Amish community haven't had a single person infected with Covid-19, when one of their leaders was asked why he thought that was he said, easy we don't have TV's.

    May be an ounce of truth in this.


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    I’ve banged on about the over simplification of facts. I do not doubt this fact, but let’s look behind it, the Amish community isolate themselves from the rest of society anyway so the chance of transmission will be low,they look after their own so the likely hood of them having a COVID test will be close to zero, and any deaths will be attributed to flue.

    But some right wing conspiracy nut will use it to claim that COVID is a hoax

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    I’ve banged on about the over simplification of facts. I do not doubt this fact, but let’s look behind it, the Amish community isolate themselves from the rest of society anyway so the chance of transmission will be low,they look after their own so the likely hood of them having a COVID test will be close to zero, and any deaths will be attributed to flue.

    But some right wing conspiracy nut will use it to claim that COVID is a hoax
    Poor heating ventilation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    I’ve banged on about the over simplification of facts. I do not doubt this fact, but let’s look behind it, the Amish community isolate themselves from the rest of society anyway so the chance of transmission will be low,they look after their own so the likely hood of them having a COVID test will be close to zero, and any deaths will be attributed to flue.

    But some right wing conspiracy nut will use it to claim that COVID is a hoax
    I think it was more a light hearted attempt at a joke in these challenging times.


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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    I think it was more a light hearted attempt at a joke in these challenging times.


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    I doubt even those weirdo's actually believe that TV spreads Covid.

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    Can lizards catch Covid19 as im frightfully worried about our Monarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pramtown View Post
    Can lizards catch Covid19 as im frightfully worried about our Monarchy.
    Only if they watch too much TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    This is the crux of it for me; when Labour lost seats such as Leigh it was because Labour seemed more interested in the politics of South America, red win conversations in Islingdon about the front page of The Guardian and discussions over environment and green policy. Whilst some of these things are worthy topics, the reality is the working class, especially in industrialised areas, has felt marginalised and 'represented' by a party which seems a million miles away from their reality. Lets face it, Dave in Leigh cares more about his job and the cost of a pint than say the struggles of Evo Morales.

    You'd have been considered out of your mind if you predicted that say even 5 years ago Leigh would go to the Tories, but things like Brexit and the rise of mavericks like Johnson (and in the US, Trump) created an impression amongst this group that they had a bonafide chance to give the 'old' political elite a kick up the arse. That these people are products and beneficiaries of the same system these thicko's thought they were kicking is another point, but the fact remains it was almost a protest vote - don't forget about us.

    I've seen the Embrey stuff. Its bang on in terms of articulating blue collar frustrations in the face of 'Liberal Labour; I’ve seen this type of thinking first hand at work - been peppered with BLM, identity empathy and stuff like that in a manner that is as patronising as it is pretentious. Its a massive turn off for most but especially blue collar workers.
    Leigh voted tory because they wanted brexit, the incumbent MP Jo Platt didn't. She put her own agenda before her constituents so the people of Leigh gave her the boot, unlike Wigan who also voted for brexit, yet voted Lisa Nandy back in who was fighting to remain and feather her nest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Dave View Post
    I doubt even those weirdo's actually believe that TV spreads Covid.
    Think that one went over your head Dave.......I think the point was they don't have MSM.

    Enjoying the debate on here, both sides of the argument being very well put and thankfully little name-calling / abuse.
    "The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower.
    Might have been written by a footballer about football - but never a truer word............

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    Quote Originally Posted by warringtonsaint View Post
    Think that one went over your head Dave.......I think the point was they don't have MSM.

    Enjoying the debate on here, both sides of the argument being very well put and thankfully little name-calling / abuse.
    Aye, I think so.

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    I prefer to listen to my Mrs who works in A&E in Whiston. They now have three times the wards full of covid patients than in April so think what you want but at least stay safe chaps.
    Learned comment from The Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Don View Post
    I prefer to listen to my Mrs who works in A&E in Whiston. They now have three times the wards full of covid patients than in April so think what you want but at least stay safe chaps.
    According to ONS yesterday there are 13k Covid patients in beds from 128k total beds stock nationally, about 9%. Infection rates are dropping in LCR having peaked around 3 weeks ago. Of course it's likely this mass testing arrangement in Liverpool itself will raise the infection rate count. St Helens is reported to have the highest infection rate of the whole region according the St Helens Star report.


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