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Thread: Lockdown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    tilly, Cyprus, paulscnthorpe & yourself have all given reasoned points of view and seen it from other perspectives as well.
    The figures at present do not stack up for these measures but the lunatics took over the asylum a long time ago, we have been allowing less than 3% of the population to change policies for the last 20 years. A quick one from my industry is we must build homes that are wheelchair accessible at a 7% extra cost that only less than 2% of the population need.
    We will not solve it just as we did not cause it but hey ho blame that man for not wearing a face covering, touching a friend or daring to sneeze outside in public.
    On a separate note I know it is for the other forum are you going to share your luck and well gathered knowledge to assist us peasants on
    1st try, mom, halftime/fulltime?
    I had a decent weekend on the turf and with the football, had a nice double at Cheltenham and very tidy Treble on the Saturday football. I will have a look at tonights games right now.

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    In other news. Apparently BJ won't deny that a Tier 4 strategy is close to being triggered. Spain has introduced a night time curfew for about 2 weeks but have plans in place to run it for up to 6 months which will destroy the tourist economy. Italy will soon stop testing anyone who has no symptoms. Verify these yourself.

    See you on the other side.


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    MMMM. An element of the transport sector is under severe strain so that may stop us getting about too easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkieTalkie View Post
    In other news. Apparently BJ won't deny that a Tier 4 strategy is close to being triggered. Spain has introduced a night time curfew for about 2 weeks but have plans in place to run it for up to 6 months which will destroy the tourist economy. Italy will soon stop testing anyone who has no symptoms. Verify these yourself.

    See you on the other side.


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    Lets bring in a tier 10 and hide in a cave all our lives. If only life were as simple as covid, but thats how its all been treated. Possibly because those in power are scared witless of making any decisions that prove to be the wrong ones. Theres a huge load of other things to balance than covid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Lets bring in a tier 10 and hide in a cave all our lives. If only life were as simple as covid, but thats how its all been treated. Possibly because those in power are scared witless of making any decisions that prove to be the wrong ones. Theres a huge load of other things to balance than covid.
    Agree entirely


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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    ... Possibly because those in power are scared witless of making any decisions that prove to be the wrong ones. Theres a huge load of other things to balance than covid.
    That is the problem. None of them have been there before. Previous governments and their advisers have had to make life or death decisions over stuff like The Falklands or Iraq, but those numbers were much smaller than this, and it's difficult to predict in this case, where the balance that you speak of actually is. I agree that there need to be one BTW. That's why I was wittering on about road safety earlier on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    That is the problem. None of them have been there before. Previous governments and their advisers have had to make life or death decisions over stuff like The Falklands or Iraq, but those numbers were much smaller than this, and it's difficult to predict in this case, where the balance that you speak of actually is. I agree that there need to be one BTW. That's why I was wittering on about road safety earlier on.
    It's actually not about massive numbers though in the grand scheme of things. It is about a bunch of selfish bottle jobs that will do anything for their own ends. The same bottle jobs who are very well paid to make difficult decisions btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    Lets bring in a tier 10 and hide in a cave all our lives. If only life were as simple as covid, but thats how its all been treated. Possibly because those in power are scared witless of making any decisions that prove to be the wrong ones. Theres a huge load of other things to balance than covid.
    making


    An important aspect to consider is that the impact of Covid is very and immediately quantifiable.

    The government knows if it doesn't impose tough restrictions and cases soar, the figures make it incredibly simple for everyone to see, with many concluding that the government has bolloxed it up if cases surge. Remember that this government, more than any other, operates through snappy soundbites. They realise that for a substantial proportion (a majority?) of the UK population, attention span and willingness to look deeper into any given issue is minimal. Rasputin Cummings knows this and uses these soundbites and slogans to get the message through, from 'Take back control' to 'Get Brexit done' to 'Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives'.

    It follows that they will concentrate on managing the results that make an immediate and 'soundbite' mark. Showing a simple graph displaying a surge in the number of infections, along with league tables showing infection rates by area leave people with little doubt that it's all going tits-up and, instinctively, will look to the government to solve it. If the government is inactive and cases continue to surge, the government will be blamed. If they look like they're being tough, more people will conclude "well they're doing all they can, I suppose" and not blame them (without looking at the corruption and ineptitude that is the deeper issue)

    The Covid numbers are certainly more immediate and easier to interpret without analysis, than considering the potentially increased number of deaths over the next 3-5 year period due to delayed diagnosis, cancelled operations, postponed oncology treatment, etc. Or the longer-term educational and societal impact of kids losing a big chunk of their education and missing out on so many normal social events and interactions.

    So a party/government that relies so heavily on slogans and soundbites to gaslight those in the population with low attention spans and an unwillingness to look into the deeper aspects and consequences of any policy will of course focus on managing the issue that provides an immediate and easily quantifiable outcome that they can simply be judged against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    making


    An important aspect to consider is that the impact of Covid is very and immediately quantifiable.

    The government knows if it doesn't impose tough restrictions and cases soar, the figures make it incredibly simple for everyone to see, with many concluding that the government has bolloxed it up if cases surge. Remember that this government, more than any other, operates through snappy soundbites. They realise that for a substantial proportion (a majority?) of the UK population, attention span and willingness to look deeper into any given issue is minimal. Rasputin Cummings knows this and uses these soundbites and slogans to get the message through, from 'Take back control' to 'Get Brexit done' to 'Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives'.

    It follows that they will concentrate on managing the results that make an immediate and 'soundbite' mark. Showing a simple graph displaying a surge in the number of infections, along with league tables showing infection rates by area leave people with little doubt that it's all going tits-up and, instinctively, will look to the government to solve it. If the government is inactive and cases continue to surge, the government will be blamed. If they look like they're being tough, more people will conclude "well they're doing all they can, I suppose" and not blame them (without looking at the corruption and ineptitude that is the deeper issue)

    The Covid numbers are certainly more immediate and easier to interpret without analysis, than considering the potentially increased number of deaths over the next 3-5 year period due to delayed diagnosis, cancelled operations, postponed oncology treatment, etc. Or the longer-term educational and societal impact of kids losing a big chunk of their education and missing out on so many normal social events and interactions.

    So a party/government that relies so heavily on slogans and soundbites to gaslight those in the population with low attention spans and an unwillingness to look into the deeper aspects and consequences of any policy will of course focus on managing the issue that provides an immediate and easily quantifiable outcome that they can simply be judged against.
    A party ran by morons for morons if you will.

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    I’m not sure what you’re actually advocating for though Webbo. Are you saying that they need to open everywhere up because basing everything on case numbers is simplistic and is doing more harm in the long run? Genuine question, because your post makes some valid points but there’s no solution in there as far as I can see. Aren’t Whitty, Valance and co saying that case numbers and keeping the spread down the most important thing? I don’t agree that repetitive lock downs and restrictions does much but kick the can down the road, but I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of logic for a government to prioritise that if their scientific advisors are stressing it as the number one issue. It is simplistic, but sometimes simplistic is the best way if the fear of being more nuanced is people dying.

    As for ‘gaslighting’, wasn’t ‘For the Many, not the Few’ a simplistic slogan with little meaning? Who has ever campaigned with the pursuit of attracting only the few? Didn’t Remain campaigners use the term ‘People’s Vote’ for the simple reason that they reckoned they could persuade ignorant members of the public that their main aim wasn’t to annul the result of the first referendum? ‘Peoples Vote’ has to be the crudest campaigning gimmick used in decades by a group of people that didn’t want to admit the basic premise of their entire philosophy, so they used a slogan instead.

    All sides in this game use slogans to get messages across that either have little meaning or are designed to deflect from a deeper debate.
    Last edited by Gray77; 27th October 2020 at 12:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallaght Tiger View Post
    Simon I enjoy reading your rare posts as they are always well thought out and informed.
    When this virus struck figures of 12-15% death rate were used as the reason for lockdown, when that did not materialise it was done to protect the Health Services, now with a death rate of 2.6% we are still locking down.
    The NHS is and has been chronically underfunded for decades, why shut business down that will impact this even further ?
    Well, things have changed quite a lot since I last posted, promising to post again. Here goes:

    I’m following the argument of Prof Devi Sridhar, who seems to me to be the clearest at explaining the public health and economic ramifications of the pandemic. Given her expertise, her evidence-based account brings together all the aspects of the pandemic from a global perspective.

    As I understand her argument the aim is to minimise the number of Covid and non-Covid deaths. In doing this, it also exposes the economy to the least harm over the shortest period. She shows that the best way to protect the economy and get it going again is to reduce the virus to the level at which we can control it so that the lowest number of people is taken away from the labour market and the spending market (either through illness or death, however caused). Lockdowns halt infections more quickly and more certainly than any other method in the absence of a vaccine. That’s just an epidemiological fact. The sooner a lockdown is triggered in relation to rising infections, the shorter it needs to be. But, as many on here have observed, once lockdown ends, if no other control measures are available, the cycle of rising infections starts again. That’s where we are now. If the present lockdown is to be successful it must be accompanied by effective testing, tracing, and isolation. If we get case levels down, and new cases are traced quickly enough and the infected are isolated, those free of the virus can go about their normal business without the grim spectre of a third wave facing us.

    Any thought experiments based on carrying on as now with rising infections, or based on isolating a section of the population (the ‘elderly’ are a popular target, though there are significant economic and social costs in identifying them to isolate, which are scarcely explored by advocates of this approach), lead to ghastly places; all of them end in more deaths from all causes and more damage to the economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    Well, things have changed quite a lot since I last posted, promising to post again. Here goes:

    I’m following the argument of Prof Devi Sridhar, who seems to me to be the clearest at explaining the public health and economic ramifications of the pandemic. Given her expertise, her evidence-based account brings together all the aspects of the pandemic from a global perspective.

    As I understand her argument the aim is to minimise the number of Covid and non-Covid deaths. In doing this, it also exposes the economy to the least harm over the shortest period. She shows that the best way to protect the economy and get it going again is to reduce the virus to the level at which we can control it so that the lowest number of people is taken away from the labour market and the spending market (either through illness or death, however caused). Lockdowns halt infections more quickly and more certainly than any other method in the absence of a vaccine. That’s just an epidemiological fact. The sooner a lockdown is triggered in relation to rising infections, the shorter it needs to be. But, as many on here have observed, once lockdown ends, if no other control measures are available, the cycle of rising infections starts again. That’s where we are now. If the present lockdown is to be successful it must be accompanied by effective testing, tracing, and isolation. If we get case levels down, and new cases are traced quickly enough and the infected are isolated, those free of the virus can go about their normal business without the grim spectre of a third wave facing us.

    Any thought experiments based on carrying on as now with rising infections, or based on isolating a section of the population (the ‘elderly’ are a popular target, though there are significant economic and social costs in identifying them to isolate, which are scarcely explored by advocates of this approach), lead to ghastly places; all of them end in more deaths from all causes and more damage to the economy.
    An interesting read.

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    Farage & Tice have formally re-named Brexit Party now called Reform Party to initially campaign on the single ticket of anti lockdown. They're planning to then fight seats in the spring council elections then build to 2024 General Election.


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    Heard yesterday that Big Stu Fowles - aka Pod - has sadly died from Covid. He was a 'Scaff' stalwart and one of the Gerard Songsters, who had a hand in half the terrace songs going back to the 90s (including, most famously, You Fill Up My Senses)

    A genuinely lovely and extremely funny guy. A very sad loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    making


    An important aspect to consider is that the impact of Covid is very and immediately quantifiable.

    The government knows if it doesn't impose tough restrictions and cases soar, the figures make it incredibly simple for everyone to see, with many concluding that the government has bolloxed it up if cases surge. Remember that this government, more than any other, operates through snappy soundbites. They realise that for a substantial proportion (a majority?) of the UK population, attention span and willingness to look deeper into any given issue is minimal. Rasputin Cummings knows this and uses these soundbites and slogans to get the message through, from 'Take back control' to 'Get Brexit done' to 'Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives'.

    It follows that they will concentrate on managing the results that make an immediate and 'soundbite' mark. Showing a simple graph displaying a surge in the number of infections, along with league tables showing infection rates by area leave people with little doubt that it's all going tits-up and, instinctively, will look to the government to solve it. If the government is inactive and cases continue to surge, the government will be blamed. If they look like they're being tough, more people will conclude "well they're doing all they can, I suppose" and not blame them (without looking at the corruption and ineptitude that is the deeper issue)

    The Covid numbers are certainly more immediate and easier to interpret without analysis, than considering the potentially increased number of deaths over the next 3-5 year period due to delayed diagnosis, cancelled operations, postponed oncology treatment, etc. Or the longer-term educational and societal impact of kids losing a big chunk of their education and missing out on so many normal social events and interactions.

    So a party/government that relies so heavily on slogans and soundbites to gaslight those in the population with low attention spans and an unwillingness to look into the deeper aspects and consequences of any policy will of course focus on managing the issue that provides an immediate and easily quantifiable outcome that they can simply be judged against.
    Absoulutey stop on.

    One other thing about these graphs, is that they are extraplolating an exponential increase, look at the error bars ( the grey areas) for a 2% predicted rise the error is 1%. They have three models two which show a modest death toll but one which shows a large death toll, why show the large one, since the other two are in agreement surely this is the best prediction. They show the other one to alarm people, they are playing politics not science

    The government is asking the wrong question. It appears they are asking virologists how to minimise deaths from Covid. To which the answer is isolate to to stop transmission.

    Alongside these Covid graphs they should show

    - predicted suicides from the adverse mental health impact for an economic recession, data will be available on that
    - predicted increased in CVD deaths, cancer from missed consultations etc

    Because the Covid numbers are easy sound bites that is all they are interested , they do not have the intelligence to ask the more complex questions and more importantly understand the answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Absoulutey stop on.

    One other thing about these graphs, is that they are extraplolating an exponential increase, look at the error bars ( the grey areas) for a 2% predicted rise the error is 1%. They have three models two which show a modest death toll but one which shows a large death toll, why show the large one, since the other two are in agreement surely this is the best prediction. They show the other one to alarm people, they are playing politics not science

    The government is asking the wrong question. It appears they are asking virologists how to minimise deaths from Covid. To which the answer is isolate to to stop transmission.

    Alongside these Covid graphs they should show

    - predicted suicides from the adverse mental health impact for an economic recession, data will be available on that
    - predicted increased in CVD deaths, cancer from missed consultations etc

    Because the Covid numbers are easy sound bites that is all they are interested , they do not have the intelligence to ask the more complex questions and more importantly understand the answers.
    With the benefit of hindsight every man and his dog is coming on social media now with their own "expertise", predictions, don't believe the science etc all singing from different hymn sheets. The BBC are creating a mess interviewing different people who are saying different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    With the benefit of hindsight every man and his dog is coming on social media now with their own "expertise", predictions, don't believe the science etc all singing from different hymn sheets. The BBC are creating a mess interviewing different people who are saying different things.

    In the first wave, they used their daily TV slots as party political broadcasts to say how brilliant they were - remember their 'world leading' this and that? 'World leading' testing? 'World leading' track and trace? 'World leading' app? The only thing they led the world in was ineptitude and giving jobs and £multi-million contracts to chums and party donors.

    They said at the time that they were following scientific and expert advice. Yet it's come to light that the scientists on SAGE (the expert scientists, not the party apparatchiks appointed on there) wanted tougher measures implemented sooner. It's come to light that the government overruled the scientists. Whitty and his colleagues said in the summer that we couldn't have both schools and pubs back open or cases would surge. The government overruled them. And look where we are now.

    Experts questioned giving the track and trace contract to Serco, who have bollocksed-up seemingly every outsourced contract they've 'won'. And they go and bollocks-up track and trace.

    The government clowns announced a great App to help us track cases. Turns out a £multi-million contract to work on this was awarded (without tender process) to the company part-owned by the brother of a close friend and associate of Rasputin Cummings (the company also has Tory Peer Theodore Agnew as a major shareholder). And, quelle surprise, the APP is a failure and taxpayer money written off.

    Serial failure - but, crucially, Tory Peer and close chum of some Tory bigwigs - Dido Harding his handed the job of overseeing track and trace. And she fails again. Time after time, corrupt decisions that not only mean £billions of taxpayer money has been nepotistically handed to Tory allies, but the bloody things that are supposed to help us combat this pandemic have failed.

    When the government ignores scientific advice and gets it wrong, or when they corruptly appoint allies and donors to run things and it doesn't work, it isn't a case of needing hindsight to see their ineptitude. People made these points at the time, but were ignored or overruled.

    I'm sick to the back teeth of slavish Bozo supporters (and a lot is down to fawning over his 'get Brexit done' idiocy) defending Bozo and his troop of clowns. I think some would be happy if Bozo came round their house, knobbed their missus, took a dump on their favourite armchair and drank their beer. Because, like, well it's Boris, and at least he isn't Labour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Heard yesterday that Big Stu Fowles - aka Pod - has sadly died from Covid. He was a 'Scaff' stalwart and one of the Gerard Songsters, who had a hand in half the terrace songs going back to the 90s (including, most famously, You Fill Up My Senses)

    A genuinely lovely and extremely funny guy. A very sad loss.
    Yeah sad to hear that news yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    With the benefit of hindsight every man and his dog is coming on social media now with their own "expertise", predictions, don't believe the science etc all singing from different hymn sheets. The BBC are creating a mess interviewing different people who are saying different things.
    Nowhere in my post did say don’t believe the science, I just asked for more information.

    The issue I have is when data is presented, it can be presented to mislead. The three graphs are an excellent example. Any scientist worth their salt would look at those three independent predictions and take the two that are very close together as the most accurate. Also as I said data presented on its own without any context can be misleading

    For example the suicide rate in St. Helens has dropped considerably during this Covid, great I hear everyone say. Well the raw statistics say that and they are facts. But looking behind the raw data, you realise that there is a large back up in the coroners courts and, the lower rate over the past serval months could be due to that they just haven’t been attributed to suicide yet.

    So you see raw data is useful but only if you are able to ask the correct questions of it.

    I have no doubt that virologists are answering the questions they have been asked, but are we asking the right question? If we are then great but I would like my government to not treat me like a moron and provide me with the information and reasons why other options have not been taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostik Bailey View Post
    Nowhere in my post did say don’t believe the science, I just asked for more information.

    The issue I have is when data is presented, it can be presented to mislead. The three graphs are an excellent example. Any scientist worth their salt would look at those three independent predictions and take the two that are very close together as the most accurate. Also as I said data presented on its own without any context can be misleading

    For example the suicide rate in St. Helens has dropped considerably during this Covid, great I hear everyone say. Well the raw statistics say that and they are facts. But looking behind the raw data, you realise that there is a large back up in the coroners courts and, the lower rate over the past serval months could be due to that they just haven’t been attributed to suicide yet.

    So you see raw data is useful but only if you are able to ask the correct questions of it.

    I have no doubt that virologists are answering the questions they have been asked, but are we asking the right question? If we are then great but I would like my government to not treat me like a moron and provide me with the information and reasons why other options have not been taken.
    Bostik, that wasn't aimed at you. It came from a couple of councillors and MP's from both sides of the political hindsight gamers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Bostik, that wasn't aimed at you. It came from a couple of councillors and MP's from both sides of the political hindsight gamers.
    Fair enough sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    Well, things have changed quite a lot since I last posted, promising to post again. Here goes:

    I’m following the argument of Prof Devi Sridhar, who seems to me to be the clearest at explaining the public health and economic ramifications of the pandemic. Given her expertise, her evidence-based account brings together all the aspects of the pandemic from a global perspective.

    As I understand her argument the aim is to minimise the number of Covid and non-Covid deaths. In doing this, it also exposes the economy to the least harm over the shortest period. She shows that the best way to protect the economy and get it going again is to reduce the virus to the level at which we can control it so that the lowest number of people is taken away from the labour market and the spending market (either through illness or death, however caused). Lockdowns halt infections more quickly and more certainly than any other method in the absence of a vaccine. That’s just an epidemiological fact. The sooner a lockdown is triggered in relation to rising infections, the shorter it needs to be. But, as many on here have observed, once lockdown ends, if no other control measures are available, the cycle of rising infections starts again. That’s where we are now. If the present lockdown is to be successful it must be accompanied by effective testing, tracing, and isolation. If we get case levels down, and new cases are traced quickly enough and the infected are isolated, those free of the virus can go about their normal business without the grim spectre of a third wave facing us.

    Any thought experiments based on carrying on as now with rising infections, or based on isolating a section of the population (the ‘elderly’ are a popular target, though there are significant economic and social costs in identifying them to isolate, which are scarcely explored by advocates of this approach), lead to ghastly places; all of them end in more deaths from all causes and more damage to the economy.
    Yeah Simon have read a couple of her articles it offers something different.
    As of the middle of last month WHO`s David Nabarro has said lockdown should not be the primary source of tackling Covid19, and should only be used as a short sharp measure. He goes on to say lockdowns bring and will bring poverty.
    When the experts don`t agree publicly, we know there is differing views privately.
    The fact remains it is fatal to les than 2.6% of the population and half will have no symptoms whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Heard yesterday that Big Stu Fowles - aka Pod - has sadly died from Covid. He was a 'Scaff' stalwart and one of the Gerard Songsters, who had a hand in half the terrace songs going back to the 90s (including, most famously, You Fill Up My Senses)

    A genuinely lovely and extremely funny guy. A very sad loss.
    Bloody hell, I remember Stu. Gentle giant. RIP Big fella.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    In the first wave, they used their daily TV slots as party political broadcasts to say how brilliant they were - remember their 'world leading' this and that? 'World leading' testing? 'World leading' track and trace? 'World leading' app? The only thing they led the world in was ineptitude and giving jobs and £multi-million contracts to chums and party donors.

    They said at the time that they were following scientific and expert advice. Yet it's come to light that the scientists on SAGE (the expert scientists, not the party apparatchiks appointed on there) wanted tougher measures implemented sooner. It's come to light that the government overruled the scientists. Whitty and his colleagues said in the summer that we couldn't have both schools and pubs back open or cases would surge. The government overruled them. And look where we are now.

    Experts questioned giving the track and trace contract to Serco, who have bollocksed-up seemingly every outsourced contract they've 'won'. And they go and bollocks-up track and trace.

    The government clowns announced a great App to help us track cases. Turns out a £multi-million contract to work on this was awarded (without tender process) to the company part-owned by the brother of a close friend and associate of Rasputin Cummings (the company also has Tory Peer Theodore Agnew as a major shareholder). And, quelle surprise, the APP is a failure and taxpayer money written off.

    Serial failure - but, crucially, Tory Peer and close chum of some Tory bigwigs - Dido Harding his handed the job of overseeing track and trace. And she fails again. Time after time, corrupt decisions that not only mean £billions of taxpayer money has been nepotistically handed to Tory allies, but the bloody things that are supposed to help us combat this pandemic have failed.

    When the government ignores scientific advice and gets it wrong, or when they corruptly appoint allies and donors to run things and it doesn't work, it isn't a case of needing hindsight to see their ineptitude. People made these points at the time, but were ignored or overruled.

    I'm sick to the back teeth of slavish Bozo supporters (and a lot is down to fawning over his 'get Brexit done' idiocy) defending Bozo and his troop of clowns. I think some would be happy if Bozo came round their house, knobbed their missus, took a dump on their favourite armchair and drank their beer. Because, like, well it's Boris, and at least he isn't Labour.
    Absolutely agree with this, to the point it's actually changed my mind on a few people I consider friends. And also the mongs claiming to support Donald Trump. I've never been into politics but will admit I've been jingoistic in the past, probably inadvertently making more Tory and Labour but this has really opened my eyes.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    I'm sick to the back teeth of slavish Bozo supporters (and a lot is down to fawning over his 'get Brexit done' idiocy) defending Bozo and his troop of clowns. I think some would be happy if Bozo came round their house, knobbed their missus, took a dump on their favourite armchair and drank their beer. Because, like, well it's Boris, and at least he isn't Labour.
    I find this simplistic mate, and again I stress I have been a member of the Labour Party most of my adult life. Every party has slavish supporters.

    I could accuse every single person who voted Labour last December of supporting anti-semitism. Corbyn had/has supporters who completely ignored or downplayed this serious issue because it was inconvenient. These same people have made a massive issue of racism and BLM this year only months after turning a blind eye to the complaints of Jewish people in their party. The hypocrisy is stunning, but they backed him and ignored this massive thing... because he wasn’t Tory.

    You always reference Brexit, and yes, maybe some give Boris more support than he deserves because they want it to happen, but given he’s the one making it happen why wouldn’t they turn a blind eye to his quite obvious failings if he achieves this thing that they voted for and want to see happen? Is it any different to (for example) Labour voters completely ignoring Corbyn’s ludicrous attempt to absolve the Russians over the Salisbury poisonings etc. You may not like Brexit, but I don’t like the possibility that our PM could have ended up being someone who instinctively trusts Putin more than our intelligence services. Millions will have known this was a reality, but still held their noses and voted Labour. Why was this? Because he wasn’t the Tories. It’s exactly the same stupid stuff that you accuse Boris supporters of doing.

    You’re obviously right in what you say, but you only ever point it in one direction. It’s almost as if you expect Tories to do in their own government. Maybe they see the long picture, that beyond this crisis their party is a better bet for them than Labour, and by supporting their party now they will be able to win the next election. It’s hardly a shocking turn of events for this to happen because it’s happened for as long as party politics has been around, and the examples above are recent proof that everyone does it if they think that their preferred party will benefit in the long run.

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