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Thread: Lockdown

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    As members of the public we very rarely get the truth re the details of what goes on in political discussions, so it's always worth bearing in mind that any politician of any party will distort the truth to suit their own ends.

    Or to put it more bluntly "how can you tell when a politician is lying, his/her lips are moving"

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    If you want the latest example of how downright cynical this government is then here is one:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/alexwickh...398656/photo/1

    Of course all shades of governments down the years have had their lowlights but we are here now and there sppears to be a difference between put forth a political view on what is right for society (Burnham) and vacuous one upsmanship that serves little but itself.

    Yeah, one smug Tory prick sneered "I do not believe in nationalising children" in one of the most facetiously idiot and irrelevant pieces of grandstanding I've seen. No doubt he's still giving himself a Tory Boy snigger for that one.

    They're detestable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Yeah, one smug Tory prick sneered "I do not believe in nationalising children" in one of the most facetiously idiot and irrelevant pieces of grandstanding I've seen. No doubt he's still giving himself a Tory Boy snigger for that one.

    They're detestable.
    That was a silly statement to be honest. He probably thought it was clever before hand, but its bacfired and he’s succeeded in making l himself look a helmet to the general public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Yeah, one smug Tory prick sneered "I do not believe in nationalising children" in one of the most facetiously idiot and irrelevant pieces of grandstanding I've seen. No doubt he's still giving himself a Tory Boy snigger for that one.

    They're detestable.
    Brendan something Smith is the lemons name

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    Quote Originally Posted by STIDDY View Post
    Very true, his soap box speech was all about boozers and bookies and not one single word about saving lives and saving the NHS. The Sheffield Mayor this morning talks about tier 3 and saving lives and saving the NHS as though saving jobs is secondary. Burnham is all talk the talk, don't forget he increased privatisation of the NHS when health secretary.

    I do wonder if the Labour Shadow Government have given him a long leash to make it more party politics and if not successful he will be hung out to dry.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AndyBurnh...32492428316672

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    With the head of Liverpool city hospitals saying they now have 398 Covid cases in his hospitals alone, at the height of the pandemic in April, it was 390. And today, the announcement that the Manchester, north west Nightingale hospital is to reopen next week. It shows just how bad things are and are going to be, getting through this second wave of the pandemic.

    Stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Yeah, one smug Tory prick sneered "I do not believe in nationalising children" in one of the most facetiously idiot and irrelevant pieces of grandstanding I've seen. No doubt he's still giving himself a Tory Boy snigger for that one.

    They're detestable.
    And many of their followers are usually marked on twitter by an English/British flag or a blue line after their name. An instant warning of a radical, Daily Mail reader is a flag.

    Maybe they put it on their CV when they apply for a job....?

    Or if they are in Leigh or Bury they just follow Orwells maxim that: It was not desirable that the proles should have strong political feelings. All that was required of them was a primitive patriotism which could be appealed to whenever it was necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    And many of their followers are usually marked on twitter by an English/British flag or a blue line after their name. An instant warning of a radical, Daily Mail reader is a flag.

    Maybe they put it on their CV when they apply for a job....?

    Or if they are in Leigh or Bury they just follow Orwells maxim that: It was not desirable that the proles should have strong political feelings. All that was required of them was a primitive patriotism which could be appealed to whenever it was necessary.

    Yes, sadly flagshagging cretins are all too commonplace these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiewaringsflatcap View Post
    And many of their followers are usually marked on twitter by an English/British flag or a blue line after their name. An instant warning of a radical, Daily Mail reader is a flag.

    Maybe they put it on their CV when they apply for a job....?

    Or if they are in Leigh or Bury they just follow Orwells maxim that: It was not desirable that the proles should have strong political feelings. All that was required of them was a primitive patriotism which could be appealed to whenever it was necessary.
    David Cameron - f**ked the country, then resigned
    Teresa May - f**ked the country, then resigned
    Boris Johnson - f**ks the country, won’t be anywhere near the leadership at the next election

    Anyone see a pattern? The public of the UK are the true definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackbit View Post
    With the head of Liverpool city hospitals saying they now have 398 Covid cases in his hospitals alone, at the height of the pandemic in April, it was 390. And today, the announcement that the Manchester, north west Nightingale hospital is to reopen next week. It shows just how bad things are and are going to be, getting through this second wave of the pandemic.

    Stay safe.
    Define bad? Those hospital beds would be almost as full this time of year anyway. The change to colder weather does unfortunately cull a lot of the vulnerable every year. Sure Covid is stronger than the flu, but this is just seasonal respiratory ailments topping up hospital capacity.

    The real issue isn't covid. It's the lack of leadership and the NHS being the absolute shambles it is. It's everyones favourite fawn over item, but it's useless and on the verge of collapse covid or not. NHS critical care capacity is a scandal. Most hospitals have very little. There was one Doctor on the news the other night throwing out scandalous headlines, "We're at 108% of capacity, EVERYONE IS DYING IN CORRIDORS" etc. He was asked what that bed number was, "38" was his response. I think that was somewhere like Blackpool, you'd get that many every single night in summer when the stag and hen parties are in full swing. The NHS (Not the Government) refusing to treat other patients is also a scandal that the media (Obsessed only with causing political instability) have chosen to ignore. More will die from preventable cancers and other diseases than will ultimately die of this plague 2.0.

    Covid isn't going anywhere, it's clear the economy won't stand this much disruption. 10,000,000 unemployed by April at this rate. I don't think many have actually stopped to wonder what that will be like. Society hangs by a thread at the best of times, once more than one in 6 people are desperate, things will go south quickly. 'But we needs to save lives you monster! LIVES!!!!!'. Those people will likely be dead within 12 months anyway.

    One thing this whole mess shows is how inept our politicians are. A lot of Labour fanboyism on here as expected, but they've shown they'd have been just as incompetent. Labour were against lockdown, against local lockdown then their leader suddenly out of nowhere begs for a national shutdown because he's just heard the phrase and realises it's the opposite to what Boris is planning and suddenly they change direction, despite saying earlier that afternoon that lockdowns don't work. Their behaviour has also been shocking, more Labour MPs have broken the regulations than Conservatives, which shows how entrenched the 'us and them' mentality is in both parties and there would have been a 'Cummings moment' with Labour as well.

    We're deliberately choosing to ruin the lives of 11 MILLION children and consigning around 20 MILLION younger people to probably 20 years of unecessary financial hardship and economic instability. Another generation of teenagers with no realistic prospect of ever finding long term work. For what? To save at worst 400,000 lives, 95%+ of whom will be 80+. The number 400,000 sounds dramatic, it's awful. But there are times when you've got to make difficult decisions in Government and ours has shown it won't make them. Suicide alone will dwarf that number, cancer will cover it many, many times if the NHS is allowed to continue.

    But yeah, lockdown, lockdown, circuit breaker, circuit breaker. Must save granny. Lives before futures. Lets ignore mental health and every other illness bar the dreaded, the almighty Covid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Define bad? Those hospital beds would be almost as full this time of year anyway. The change to colder weather does unfortunately cull a lot of the vulnerable every year. Sure Covid is stronger than the flu, but this is just seasonal respiratory ailments topping up hospital capacity.

    The real issue isn't covid. It's the lack of leadership and the NHS being the absolute shambles it is. It's everyones favourite fawn over item, but it's useless and on the verge of collapse covid or not. NHS critical care capacity is a scandal. Most hospitals have very little. There was one Doctor on the news the other night throwing out scandalous headlines, "We're at 108% of capacity, EVERYONE IS DYING IN CORRIDORS" etc. He was asked what that bed number was, "38" was his response. I think that was somewhere like Blackpool, you'd get that many every single night in summer when the stag and hen parties are in full swing. The NHS (Not the Government) refusing to treat other patients is also a scandal that the media (Obsessed only with causing political instability) have chosen to ignore. More will die from preventable cancers and other diseases than will ultimately die of this plague 2.0.

    Covid isn't going anywhere, it's clear the economy won't stand this much disruption. 10,000,000 unemployed by April at this rate. I don't think many have actually stopped to wonder what that will be like. Society hangs by a thread at the best of times, once more than one in 6 people are desperate, things will go south quickly. 'But we needs to save lives you monster! LIVES!!!!!'. Those people will likely be dead within 12 months anyway.

    One thing this whole mess shows is how inept our politicians are. A lot of Labour fanboyism on here as expected, but they've shown they'd have been just as incompetent. Labour were against lockdown, against local lockdown then their leader suddenly out of nowhere begs for a national shutdown because he's just heard the phrase and realises it's the opposite to what Boris is planning and suddenly they change direction, despite saying earlier that afternoon that lockdowns don't work. Their behaviour has also been shocking, more Labour MPs have broken the regulations than Conservatives, which shows how entrenched the 'us and them' mentality is in both parties and there would have been a 'Cummings moment' with Labour as well.

    We're deliberately choosing to ruin the lives of 11 MILLION children and consigning around 20 MILLION younger people to probably 20 years of unecessary financial hardship and economic instability. Another generation of teenagers with no realistic prospect of ever finding long term work. For what? To save at worst 400,000 lives, 95%+ of whom will be 80+. The number 400,000 sounds dramatic, it's awful. But there are times when you've got to make difficult decisions in Government and ours has shown it won't make them. Suicide alone will dwarf that number, cancer will cover it many, many times if the NHS is allowed to continue.

    But yeah, lockdown, lockdown, circuit breaker, circuit breaker. Must save granny. Lives before futures. Lets ignore mental health and every other illness bar the dreaded, the almighty Covid.
    Belting post. It was Blackpool that it turns out had 8 ICU beds all full with 1 awaiting discharge then this was translated to being chocker. Blackpool NHS is renowned for being the worst health authority in the whole of the UK - bottom in nearly every metric. The head of GM clinical services or similar job title said this week that ICU beds are less populated than last year on like for like capacity especially Salford & Trafford plus they can bring more on line if needed. Nationally as of Tuesday this week ICU beds were at 62% capacity. I still maintain the issue is driven by 1000's and 1000's of false positives. If you have no flu symptoms you can't have flu, same goes for Covid yet people are being told they have it which then drives more testing and more false positives.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Brilliant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webbo Again View Post
    Who is that aimed at? If it's at me, care to elaborate? It's perfectly reasonable to not agree with lockdown being the right answer. Too many people are too focused on the here and now, not the disastrous impact these actions are going to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    Define bad? Those hospital beds would be almost as full this time of year anyway. The change to colder weather does unfortunately cull a lot of the vulnerable every year. Sure Covid is stronger than the flu, but this is just seasonal respiratory ailments topping up hospital capacity.

    The real issue isn't covid. It's the lack of leadership and the NHS being the absolute shambles it is. It's everyones favourite fawn over item, but it's useless and on the verge of collapse covid or not. NHS critical care capacity is a scandal. Most hospitals have very little. There was one Doctor on the news the other night throwing out scandalous headlines, "We're at 108% of capacity, EVERYONE IS DYING IN CORRIDORS" etc. He was asked what that bed number was, "38" was his response. I think that was somewhere like Blackpool, you'd get that many every single night in summer when the stag and hen parties are in full swing. The NHS (Not the Government) refusing to treat other patients is also a scandal that the media (Obsessed only with causing political instability) have chosen to ignore. More will die from preventable cancers and other diseases than will ultimately die of this plague 2.0.

    Covid isn't going anywhere, it's clear the economy won't stand this much disruption. 10,000,000 unemployed by April at this rate. I don't think many have actually stopped to wonder what that will be like. Society hangs by a thread at the best of times, once more than one in 6 people are desperate, things will go south quickly. 'But we needs to save lives you monster! LIVES!!!!!'. Those people will likely be dead within 12 months anyway.

    One thing this whole mess shows is how inept our politicians are. A lot of Labour fanboyism on here as expected, but they've shown they'd have been just as incompetent. Labour were against lockdown, against local lockdown then their leader suddenly out of nowhere begs for a national shutdown because he's just heard the phrase and realises it's the opposite to what Boris is planning and suddenly they change direction, despite saying earlier that afternoon that lockdowns don't work. Their behaviour has also been shocking, more Labour MPs have broken the regulations than Conservatives, which shows how entrenched the 'us and them' mentality is in both parties and there would have been a 'Cummings moment' with Labour as well.

    We're deliberately choosing to ruin the lives of 11 MILLION children and consigning around 20 MILLION younger people to probably 20 years of unecessary financial hardship and economic instability. Another generation of teenagers with no realistic prospect of ever finding long term work. For what? To save at worst 400,000 lives, 95%+ of whom will be 80+. The number 400,000 sounds dramatic, it's awful. But there are times when you've got to make difficult decisions in Government and ours has shown it won't make them. Suicide alone will dwarf that number, cancer will cover it many, many times if the NHS is allowed to continue.

    But yeah, lockdown, lockdown, circuit breaker, circuit breaker. Must save granny. Lives before futures. Lets ignore mental health and every other illness bar the dreaded, the almighty Covid.
    We are not into the flu season yet! We are going into a very serious stage of this second wave already and we are struggling in our region. We only have so many hospitals that are 'Hot' meaning they have ICU's, our hospital is 'Cold' we do not have ICU.

    We enter winter on the 21 Dec and come out of winter on 20 March, this normally coincide's with flu season, not now, but then. This is a serious situation that this country is now facing, some of your comments come over as pathetic, dangerous and ingnorent of what we face.

    As far as politics are concerned, I think more of the people than any party. No doubt there will be Public Inquiries into what has gone on, and I look forward to their findings once they are completed.

    COYS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackbit View Post
    We are not into the flu season yet! We are going into a very serious stage of this second wave already and we are struggling in our region. We only have so many hospitals that are 'Hot' meaning they have ICU's, our hospital is 'Cold' we do not have ICU.

    We enter winter on the 21 Dec and come out of winter on 20 March, this normally coincide's with flu season, not now, but then. This is a serious situation that this country is now facing, some of your comments come over as pathetic, dangerous and ingnorent of what we face.

    As far as politics are concerned, I think more of the people than any party. No doubt there will be Public Inquiries into what has gone on, and I look forward to their findings once they are completed.

    COYS
    I'm not ignorant of the severity of the situation at all. I supported the first lockdown, it made sense at the time. I didn't say it was 'flu season'. But look at hospital capacity levels from previous years, there is always a big lift in September/October as the temperature drops. I'm also not one of the 'it's just flu' or 'it's a plandemic' people. It just seems no one is mentioning or even considering the bigger picture. For me it seems the ignorance isn't any more prevelant amongst those anti-lockdown as it is those pro-lockdown. There is this mad scramble to save lives in the here and now, but at what cost? What if doing that kills many more than Covid would have? Some of the things the NHS are doing are scandalous, cancelling procedures, cancelling outpatients etc. If we save lives from Covid but end up letting many more die of other things, which is undeniably what is happening, have we done this right?

    This whole money vs lives arguement is the key one. The vast majority want to save lives. But no one seems to realise that they're incredibly closely linked. You plunge millions more into living in a household with no income other than benefits you're putting a lead weight around those people. Quite how the country is going to go when so many are unemployed and struggling is another question Sage and the Government aren't considering. We're always close to society breaking down, the slightest thing can kick it off.

    The question is timing. If they can get this dealt with quickly, great. If this is going to be the case for another 6, 12, 18 months or beyond it simply cannot continue like it is, it isn't sustainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddened! View Post
    I'm not ignorant of the severity of the situation at all. I supported the first lockdown, it made sense at the time. I didn't say it was 'flu season'. But look at hospital capacity levels from previous years, there is always a big lift in September/October as the temperature drops. I'm also not one of the 'it's just flu' or 'it's a plandemic' people. It just seems no one is mentioning or even considering the bigger picture. For me it seems the ignorance isn't any more prevelant amongst those anti-lockdown as it is those pro-lockdown. There is this mad scramble to save lives in the here and now, but at what cost? What if doing that kills many more than Covid would have? Some of the things the NHS are doing are scandalous, cancelling procedures, cancelling outpatients etc. If we save lives from Covid but end up letting many more die of other things, which is undeniably what is happening, have we done this right?

    This whole money vs lives arguement is the key one. The vast majority want to save lives. But no one seems to realise that they're incredibly closely linked. You plunge millions more into living in a household with no income other than benefits you're putting a lead weight around those people. Quite how the country is going to go when so many are unemployed and struggling is another question Sage and the Government aren't considering. We're always close to society breaking down, the slightest thing can kick it off.

    The question is timing. If they can get this dealt with quickly, great. If this is going to be the case for another 6, 12, 18 months or beyond it simply cannot continue like it is, it isn't sustainable.
    I follow the rules, wash my hands, wear a mask, respect others, I don't like it but it's the rules, but it's unsustainable as you say. Too many people are believing what the BBC tell them. It's like listening to a sports match on the radio, you're wholly reliant on what you're being told and encouraged to paint a picture in your mind by the commentator who can sensationalise whatever he wants you to believe. We have to see it for ourselves. People are following the headlines and believing what they're being told. Look at the data yourself and you can see that the 2nd wave doesn't exist, it's a small bump caused by students in September. Everywhere is now settling back down and deaths are normalised for this time of year, they have been since April. I have seen the monthly morbidity data for the last 13 years for the whole of England and Wales and the current death rate is equivalent to the 13 year average no more no less. The ICU bed utilisation in GM in October is less than October 2019, fact. ICU bed utilisation in UK at the start of this week was 62% with more available if needed. The average age of a death attributed to Covid is 82 & all have an underlying health issue or are just plain old. Cases of flu for October are very very low compared to the last 13 years average, if that's down to masks why is Covid increasing, they're both coronavirus. There are a significant number of false positive tests that generate more tests that are themselves generating false positives and on and on. If we stopped testing the 'pandemic' would be gone I have no doubt. People with no symptoms are getting tested and getting a positive result, then their contacts get tested and some of those test positive. I know 3 people who received a letter saying they're positive when they didn't submit a test. If you have no symptoms you don't have flu and neither do you have Covid. This is unsustainable in that breast & other cancers are not being screened, elective surgeries are basically at zero, doctors arnt holding surgeries, suicides are increasing, the elderly are dying without support of their families. Support for families supporting children with Downs is at zero with little hope of changing into the future. The economic costs and associated hardship is astronomical and our grandchildren's children will be paying for it. Wales has gone into weeks of lockdown, a country that is already broke with little ability to support itself and is reliant on handouts from the rest of the UK. The Government in Wales (not Westminster) has instructed shops to screen off areas where 'non-essential' goods are normally available to outlaw their sale? It's not the job of Government to lock down shops, we're not in North Korea. Are we truly supportive of this so that we don't even raise an eyebrow about the social issues this will cause. Wales will quickly become a wasteland even more reliant on us than before. The deaths in Wales 'with Covid' average at one per day, yes one per day. That's with Covid not as the primary cause of death, it's madness. The Labour Party in Westminster support a similar national lockdown although they've adopted the new term of 'circuit breaker' so there's a chance our shelves might also be screened off and our elderly further alienated. This is my last input to this thread, believe what you believe that's up to you but in typical fashion those with an alternative view here tend to shout others down and criticise. History will judge us badly I've no doubt.


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    I think it’s important to understand that asymptomatic transmission of Covid 19 is a fact. Not a possibility, not a probability, a fact. Anyone who maintains the opposite is placing other people’s lives at risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    I think it’s important to understand that asymptomatic transmission of Covid 19 is a fact. Not a possibility, not a probability, a fact. Anyone who maintains the opposite is placing other people’s lives at risk.
    Is it a fact?
    I know folks can have it (or at least test positive, which is another debate!) without showing symptoms, but can they then pass it on?
    I'm not picking sides here. Just asking, as I've not seen it reported.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KentishBarry View Post
    Is it a fact?
    I know folks can have it (or at least test positive, which is another debate!) without showing symptoms, but can they then pass it on?
    I'm not picking sides here. Just asking, as I've not seen it reported.
    Yes, it is a fact. Part of the problem with the super-spreader event linked to church attendance in South Korea as that the person at the centre of the outbreak was asymptomatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simeon Stylites View Post
    Yes, it is a fact. Part of the problem with the super-spreader event linked to church attendance in South Korea as that the person at the centre of the outbreak was asymptomatic.
    Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm asking the right question here.
    We're told that people can be contagious before they develop symptoms. I believe that this was the case in S.Korea.
    Have there been any proven cases where someone has passed it on, but remained asymptomatic themselves?...And perhaps more to the point, how would you go about proving it?

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    Ah, I see your question. The answer is still yes, as this study, published in August, shows: https://www.advisory.com/daily-brief...0/asymptomatic

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    I should have added, presymptomatic AND asymptomatic people transmit the virus.

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    Saddened wrote: For what? To save at worst 400,000 lives, 95%+ of whom will be 80+.

    There’s a lot to comment on in your latest posts. I agree with your central contention that saving lives and saving the economy are linked. But just commenting on your figures, I think you are not using reliable figures. Firstly the average age of death from C19 in the first wave was 82. In the second wave that is likely to be lower, but it is obviously a moving figure at the moment. And 400,000, where does that come from? What actions do we take to get to that figure? Finally, C19 kills people directly and indirectly, as you say. But to date, C19 direct deaths make up two thirds of the excess deaths for this year. We don’t know how that proportion might change as the virus gets into its stride again, but most medics predict a higher proportion of excess deaths directly from C19 than from indirect causes, such as cancelling operations or other treatment.
    What we need to check the virus is effective test and trace; the fact that we do not have it, and the fact that the NHS does not have sufficient staff or appropriate facilities to treat c19 and nonC19 patients during the pandemic are political choices made by this government and its predecessors since 2008.

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    The problem I am having is that we appear to be just concentrating on stopping Covid. It is as if the government’s directive is just Covid, since that is what the media are currently holding as the only player.

    If the government said to to medical experts, the priority is to minimise deaths across the board, including deaths from lack of cancer treatment etc, suicides, deaths from a collapsed economy (from depravation), then I would accept the situation. If this is the case they need to make it clear. It appears that we have just asked virologists how to stop people dying from one specific virus, and bugger the consequences to everything else.

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