I’ve played nice and tried to leave you all to it, but any references to Purple Aki, hanging around kids, etc etc towards Rogues will just be deleted from now on. It’s getting tiring and none of you would stand for it. I dare any of you to tell me you’d put up with a stranger on a RL forum ribbing you for some of the not so subtle things you rib him for.
As I’ve said before, keep it up and this is no longer a place for me. I’ve had to explain to my other half what some of these things mean that I keep reading and she asks me why I’m even on here when people say stuff like that. Most of the time I laugh it off as bad humour, but it’s becoming obsessional with a few of you. There’s barely a thread on here were there isn’t a remark about this stuff. If Rogues deserves a verbal slap for derailing a thread, give him one. But can’t you do better than this abusive stuff? Cut it out.
I hope you don't mean my rent boy reference as that was meant as the club. I've not said anything regarding that to him since the last time it was brought up and rarely did it then.
Anyway, Castleford down to 9th now, maybe Longy could go there to cut his teeth, I'm not sure how long face ache has got left.
I don't know fully the reason he went to Union but if he felt put out because he wasn't considered to take over from JH then I doubt he would come back. But getting the head coaches job could have been the making of him as he would carry the can. In fact I think he would be Millwardesque in his approach to the game and the way it was played. Apart from the last two years and the all conquering side who swept up all the Trophies plus SPOTY Team of the year the Millward era was some of the most entertaining Rugby possible some of the hidings handed out were phenomenal and Longy was a major player in all the success.
On the Back foot looking for the front one.
How did Long get on with Darryl Powell? Danny Orr is leaving Cas at the end of the season.
I have said this before in other discussions but I think it is vital that whoever is Saints coach they must have had club experience elsewhere and not just only with Saints. I have reservations about eg Paul Wellens getting the job at some point without experience elsewhere. We would just be repeating history otherwise and that didn't work.
KC might have worked out differently if he had gone elsewhere first?
Learned comment from The Don
I think you’re right, and I doubt the club will throw an ex legend into the job prematurely again after the KC experience.
As for Cunningham, well maybe it would have gone differently for a while, but ultimately he was wedded to a style of play and I doubt that would have changed. I think he would have been more willing to take on board criticism and understand the fans gripes had he been at another job first. When you’ve received nothing but acclaim your entire career, and there’s a statue of you outside the ground, you could be tempted to think you can do no wrong, and any stick you’re getting is coming from idiots or doom and gloom merchants. Had he taken another job and experienced the ups and downs he may have come back to Saints a little more willing to accept others opinions maybe. But ultimately, he wanted to play a certain way and that wouldn’t have changed.
Couple of points here. Firstly in relation to Wellens, he has got experience with GB/England which is definitely noteworthy. He has worked under Wayne Bennett- one of the greatest ever- and will now work under Wane who despite what people may think, was and is a good coach.
Secondly, I always wonder if KC was hamstrung by the poor recruitment at the time. Maybe this was financial due to the stadium being relatively new or maybe he chose the players but Matty Dawson, Jack Owens and Tommy (can't even remember his surname, the hooker who was overawed playing at Leigh) were hardly top class players. Also we had Makinson and Lomax suffering with long term injuries during his tenure if I remember correctly.
Don't get me wrong, KC was arrogant and didn't help himself at times but just wondering if he was a bit unlucky with the cards he was dealt.
This is what I couldn't understand with Cunningham in the direction he took to something similar to coach Brown instead of the more proven expansive coaching of McRae, Millward or Anderson. We all know he got the job 12 months too early and as already mentioned he didn't have the best of recruitment availability at the time. But for me it was his blinkered approach to do it his way at all costs, Lolesi and Long must have been very frustrated at the way everything was orchestrated with very little expansive game planning.
Think I may have mentioned it before but his ego as a player never worked out with his ego as a coach, those didn't transition well. Fast forward to the current Longy character, I don't think we would be creating another "Cunningham" scenario, an ideal is for him to get that Widnes job ASAP prove himself and apply for the saints job in 2022.
1. I want to forget KC the coach and hope that his relationship with the club can be repaired. A. J. Murphy was a great player and not such a great coach but it’s the player I try to remember.
2. We are not currently in the market for a Head Coach and I’m thinking in the long (no pun intended) term.
3. Long has experience with more than one club. I hope he has matured as a person and I’m not aware that there were any problems with him when he was an assistant under KC and Holbrook. I think our attack was better when he was allowed input into the attack under Holbrook. If we find ourselves in the market for a head or assistant coach and if he’s available, I think he should be considered.
4. Wellens is probably my favourite former player and not just because of his attributes as a player. He seems to be a level headed, likeable man with real passion for club and country. It doesn’t look as though he has put himself forward for the top job prematurely. He has patiently gained experience by working in coaching roles for club and country. I suspect that he’ll only go for a head coaching role when he believes he is ready. If he ever puts himself forward, he should be considered.
5. I would hate to see us turn against Long or Wellens but it is entirely wrong to invent arbitrary rules that we shouldn’t appoint former players or experienced assistant coaches to the head coaching role. By applying made up rules we might deprive ourselves of someone, like Holbrook, willing to play in an entertaining but winning style. Most Saints fans like an adventurous style of play. Why should the club adopt a conservative role when appointing coaches? The odd risk might pay off.
Last edited by Suttoner; 19th October 2020 at 13:58. Reason: Grammar
I think you are right on all points. With regard to your last point if it didn't work put for Longy, then he has been around quite a few clubs, both playing and coaching. Wellens is a one club man that I would hate to see fail. Having said that I don't think either of them have the arrogance of KC and because of that I doubt there failure would be received the same way. Would the two of them work in tandem? Obviously one would need to be head, but we would have both attack and defence covered. I don't know much about Marshall other than he played in the forwards.
I agree with a lot of that. I don't think we should make generalisations based on KC's time in charge, because ultimately I think the problem with KC wasn't that he used to play for us or that he used to be a top player but that he just wasn't a very good coach: not a very clear or judicious communicator and, in terms of his tactics, risk averse to the point of being utterly self-defeating. Wellens strikes me as a much more intelligent person, a much better communicator, and is clearly well-respected in circles other than just at Saints.
I have no problem with a former player becoming coach as long as there is a full and proper selection process and he shows himself to be the best candidate.
I fully agree here. If there's a credible process considering all of the facets of the role & the attributes of the applicants then great. I do think though that an applicant displaying a wide range of experience & success would be hard to resist over someone who couldn't show this. I wouldn't want anyone appointed simply on the basis of being a past player however loyal & committed they were. Remembering few coaches leave a top club of their own free will down the line, the majority end up being pushed and the relationship between club & coach can only be based on making any appointment on credible professional terms.
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can be repaired. A. J. Murphy was a great player and not such a great coach but it’s the player I try to remember.
I think the wire and Leigh fans may disagree regarding Murphy not being such a great coach.
I agree pal. Murphy was one stupid error away from winning us the Challenge Cup. That win would have propelled that team in a different way. I think he failed at Salford when he had money but not anywhere else.
Kieron was nowhere near ready. Seriously Owens and Dawson on our wings will scar me for life. Tommy Lee oh WOW.
Sean Long returning at some point as head coach? No disrespect to Marshall but I think Long would be a better head coach bet. I want our coach to carry on doing what I feel is a good job. If he chose to go back I would go Watson and Rowley.
I seem to remember we won something like 23 consecutive games under Murph. He wasn't all that bad was he?
Murphy took us to Wembley twice, we know the final was a disaster but that semi-final win against Widnes had us believing.
That was a very good Widnes side, pushing Wigan all the way in that era.
Thirdly Wellens comes across as a totally different individual to KC. Though i recognise that head coach experience at a ‘lower level’ may be useful its pretty facile trying to equate what happened with KC as some sort of Aesops fable for the future.
People are different and theres not much beyond anecdotal evidence to suggest Wellens would go down the same path as KC.
He was but time seemed to pass him by. He was one of those who seemed to think churchillian speeches and a bollocking were much of the job. Sadly he became a parody of himself in the end though I only remember his time at Saints in honesty. What he probably did have was more team spirit in a very localised dressing room then what say KC would have built. That was probably Murphy’s strength.
Great point Eddie. Time passes us all by. Some of our rose coloured spectacles about standing on terraces at far flung freezing cold places like Watersheddings and Thrum Hall. Yet no matter how cold or wet we still had a bloody good drink. Winter RL I wonder how many who remember it would return to it? I don't think I would but I think SKY has sanitised the game.