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Thread: Lack of quality 7 & kicking game

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    Quote Originally Posted by tilly2006 View Post
    I do agree that since the injury he has been on a downward curve but it was more than just hype with Lee's. He had been the young player of the year & received a lot of praise from Anderson after playing well for the knight's.
    The only thing that worries me with Lees is that, for all his intent, heís never really made an impact carrying the ball and that is job number one for a prop. Needs to bulk up in my opinion but in the short term he needs to work on his footwork. He only has to look at Thompson last season to see how effective it can be to line up a defender and then step past their shoulder just before contact, even if you get tackled itís not a dominant hit and youíre more likely to land on your front and play the ball quickly.
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    That second half we were knackered. I dont know if its because of that period of sustained pressure on our line in the first half or just general lack of fitness. Every single time, Warringtons forwards got the ball near the gain line after starting their runs 5 meters back. Every single time our forwards received the ball in the second half they were stood still.

    How many meters did Graham make? About 10 from 15 carries? Its clear to see he should not be playing

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    Quote Originally Posted by DD View Post
    We are, of course, a fantastic flat track bully side and will score for fun in games when the opposition give up a tad, but our problem even through the Holbrook era has been our inability to win big games that we should be winning on paper. One Grand Final win against Salford (in which we scored three tries) shows that we lack the ability to finish off the job, and I've always had the same fear, and that is that the half backs do not know how to open up tight defences.
    It’s one of the features of RL that we’ve least adapted to over the last decade. The ability to win big knock games has been our Achilles heel because other than that we have been pretty consistent over the last ten years, and brilliantly consistent the last two. Being a flat track bully in football would win you the league most years, because there are only so many big games over a 38 game season to trip you up, but in RL the big games are really all that counts if you’re good enough to coast into the play offs most years.

    As much as I love us being top of the league, and as much as I would love us to have a FPTP league system, there is some merit in a system that separates the men from the boys on the big occasion. The Cup is obviously no different than it’s ever been, but in a way the latter stages of the Cup now resemble the play offs in terms of the raised intensity of the games, and so it’s not difficult to see that we have issues in both for the exact same reasons.

    I’m not assigning this defeat to bottling it or anything like that, but there is a way of handling these games that we seem to lack most of the time. I’m no longer surprised when we end up on the wrong side of close knock out games, it has happened too often for it to be a shock anymore. I don’t think the GF win erased any of it because Salford are not a big game team and we were too good for them. The Wigan win in the play offs last year was a great performance, but it wasn’t an intense knock out game because both knew they had a home game against Salford the week later if they lost, and so it had a freedom that knock out games lack, which meant we played with less pressure. But when we play the big three in a knock out game now I am almost expecting us to lose, and that is never because I think we’re not good enough.

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    The game on Saturday came down to 5 minutes of us switching off towards the end of the first half, injuries taking their toll meaning the forwards were playing longer minutes with some out of position and a fluky try from Charnley.

    I don't understand the criticism of our half backs. We dominated the second half and scored some great well worked tries down both our wings. Our kicking game was poor that's the only criticism that I can see for Theo and Jonny.

    Warrington had Ratchford at half back, was he dominating the game? I wouldn't say so. Did he unlock our tight defence? No and neither did Blake Austin. It was Gelling against a patched up left side defence who had the better of Warrington before Percy went off. We got it sorted in the second half and just conceded that one fluky try.

    It was a tight game that could have gone either way. We were unlucky and Warrington are a very good side. We owe Warrington one in terms of getting a slice of luck in a big game I.e. the no try at Wembley and headergate from Saturday. Let's just hope that it will be in the semi final/grand final this November.

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    Couldnít agree more. I may be in the minority but I thought Fages was one of our better players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knowsleyroaders View Post
    Couldnít agree more. I may be in the minority but I thought Fages was one of our better players.
    I concur.

    Dodd generally plays down the left and has a left foot kicking game.

    However other than being quiet , talk regarding Lomax is generally considered taboo .

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wee Waa Womble View Post
    This thread isnít a knee jerk response to a loss, the lack of creativity near the opposition line has actually been a problem since Barba left. Last year it didnít matter as we just steamrollered opposition but it cost us early this season and threatened to cost us against Hull KR and Castleford post lockdown. Lomax does it occasionally but how often do any of our halves throw a decent dummy or step near the line. We have a spine that is excellent behind a dominant pack as the structure we play to will pick off mismatches and holes from line breaks. Against a committed, organised defence though we struggle. A better offloading game across the team would certainly help but our 1, 6 and 7 need to take on the line more, if for no other reason than to put some doubt in the opposition defence rather than letting them keep sliding across knowing the pass is coming.
    Couldn't agree more. Our pack being nullified meant all our last tackle kicks were on halfway. Any halfback would struggle behind a pack going backwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delude View Post
    The game on Saturday came down to 5 minutes of us switching off towards the end of the first half, injuries taking their toll meaning the forwards were playing longer minutes with some out of position and a fluky try from Charnley.

    I agree and I said on another post that it was the last 2 minutes of the second half that killed us. We showed a lack of composure to complete the set, grubber in at the last or kick into touch and go into the sheds behind by 2 and breathing down their necks.

    Instead we throw it away and Ashton runs almost the length of the pitch to score and we go in with an 8 point deficit and a mountain to climb.

    Admirably we get within 2 again but without that lapse we win the game..... injuries and lucky bounce become irrelevant
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I agree and I said on another post that it was the last 2 minutes of the second half that killed us. We showed a lack of composure to complete the set, grubber in at the last or kick into touch and go into the sheds behind by 2 and breathing down their necks.

    Instead we throw it away and Ashton runs almost the length of the pitch to score and we go in with an 8 point deficit and a mountain to climb.

    Admirably we get within 2 again but without that lapse we win the game..... injuries and lucky bounce become irrelevant
    It’s interesting how supporters only notice the bad luck on their own side.
    I thought your first try had a forward pass in it. I thought our “first” was not forward. I thought the late challenge call on Hill was marginal, without it we scored a try. It was a very close match between 2 good sides, I said pre match it was too close to call, and so it proved.
    The header was extremely jammy, I’ll give you that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    It’s interesting how supporters only notice the bad luck on their own side.
    I thought your first try had a forward pass in it. I thought our “first” was not forward. I thought the late challenge call on Hill was marginal, without it we scored a try. It was a very close match between 2 good sides, I said pre match it was too close to call, and so it proved.
    The header was extremely jammy, I’ll give you that!
    You might have a point, dammit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    It’s interesting how supporters only notice the bad luck on their own side.
    I thought your first try had a forward pass in it. I thought our “first” was not forward. I thought the late challenge call on Hill was marginal, without it we scored a try. It was a very close match between 2 good sides, I said pre match it was too close to call, and so it proved.
    The header was extremely jammy, I’ll give you that!

    I wasn’t bemoaning luck at all, I clearly say that.


    If we had played out the first half, and not thrown the ball away for Ashton to score then we would have won.

    I’m sure even Wire fans can minus six points from 20 without a calculator...... just use one hand.

    Luck, bad or otherwise, wasn’t involved there. It was a lack of composure to close out and that’s why we lost the game.
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    Default Lack of quality 7 & kicking game

    One of the issues is that our dominance works against us.

    More often than not our pack is dominant and we are playing off the front foot. This means that both halves find it easier. Every now and again they are asked to play off the back foot and canít because they donít have experience of it and canít react.

    We probably play 10 games where our pack dominates, then 1 off then another 10 where we do the same.

    Itís why Lomax was so ineffective in the CC Final last year. It was probably the only time in the season we werenít on the front foot.

    Warrington have the blueprint to beat us and do so effectively. Thatís now 3 pressure games on the run that theyíve beaten us in. Match our sets, complete well, kick well, stay with us and youíve a good chance of winning the game.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray77 View Post
    Itís one of the features of RL that weíve least adapted to over the last decade. The ability to win big knock games has been our Achilles heel because other than that we have been pretty consistent over the last ten years, and brilliantly consistent the last two. Being a flat track bully in football would win you the league most years, because there are only so many big games over a 38 game season to trip you up, but in RL the big games are really all that counts if youíre good enough to coast into the play offs most years.

    As much as I love us being top of the league, and as much as I would love us to have a FPTP league system, there is some merit in a system that separates the men from the boys on the big occasion. The Cup is obviously no different than itís ever been, but in a way the latter stages of the Cup now resemble the play offs in terms of the raised intensity of the games, and so itís not difficult to see that we have issues in both for the exact same reasons.

    Iím not assigning this defeat to bottling it or anything like that, but there is a way of handling these games that we seem to lack most of the time. Iím no longer surprised when we end up on the wrong side of close knock out games, it has happened too often for it to be a shock anymore. I donít think the GF win erased any of it because Salford are not a big game team and we were too good for them. The Wigan win in the play offs last year was a great performance, but it wasnít an intense knock out game because both knew they had a home game against Salford the week later if they lost, and so it had a freedom that knock out games lack, which meant we played with less pressure. But when we play the big three in a knock out game now I am almost expecting us to lose, and that is never because I think weíre not good enough.
    Can we a least go into a semi or final with a different mind set ? Rather than playing the percentage game that we play mostly, play different, start playing differently throughout the season, instead of looking to get a quick play the ball and completing sets with a kick to the corner to build pressure. It does not seem to suit us in big games, we tense up, become erratic, make errors, one victory in a final against one of the bigger teams in twelve years.
    I agree on the Salford analogy they were there on meritocracy but they probably tensed up due to lack of big game experience.

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    I apologise if this has been mentioned before but is Lees better suited for a go in the second row ?. He’s certainly got the pace, but i don’t know if he’s got the handling ability of Taia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delude View Post
    The game on Saturday came down to 5 minutes of us switching off towards the end of the first half, injuries taking their toll meaning the forwards were playing longer minutes with some out of position and a fluky try from Charnley.

    I don't understand the criticism of our half backs. We dominated the second half and scored some great well worked tries down both our wings. Our kicking game was poor that's the only criticism that I can see for Theo and Jonny.

    Warrington had Ratchford at half back, was he dominating the game? I wouldn't say so. Did he unlock our tight defence? No and neither did Blake Austin. It was Gelling against a patched up left side defence who had the better of Warrington before Percy went off. We got it sorted in the second half and just conceded that one fluky try.

    It was a tight game that could have gone either way. We were unlucky and Warrington are a very good side. We owe Warrington one in terms of getting a slice of luck in a big game I.e. the no try at Wembley and headergate from Saturday. Let's just hope that it will be in the semi final/grand final this November.
    That's a very good summary of how I saw it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pramtown View Post
    I apologise if this has been mentioned before but is Lees better suited for a go in the second row ?. He’s certainly got the pace, but i don’t know if he’s got the handling ability of Taia.
    He has a build more suited to SR, and I have wondered about that, but no clear memory of him ever joining the line during a break nor of him passing to make a gap. Maybe he doesn't have the skill set or maybe he is just playing to instructions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pramtown View Post
    I apologise if this has been mentioned before but is Lees better suited for a go in the second row ?. Heís certainly got the pace, but i donít know if heís got the handling ability of Taia.
    Iím not sure Iíve ever seen him pass or offload
    Forwards win games. The backs decide by how much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgian Saint View Post
    He has a build more suited to SR, and I have wondered about that, but no clear memory of him ever joining the line during a break nor of him passing to make a gap. Maybe he doesn't have the skill set or maybe he is just playing to instructions?
    Like LMS and Ashworth very mobile and athletic for a prop but not got the lateral mobility needed for SR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    I wasn’t bemoaning luck at all, I clearly say that.


    If we had played out the first half, and not thrown the ball away for Ashton to score then we would have won.

    I’m sure even Wire fans can minus six points from 20 without a calculator...... just use one hand.

    Luck, bad or otherwise, wasn’t involved there. It was a lack of composure to close out and that’s why we lost the game.
    If Austin had dummied instead of passing we would have scored...where do you draw the line?
    Your “insult” lacks imagination and bite (D minus).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    If Austin had dummied instead of passing we would have scored...where do you draw the line?
    Your “insult” lacks imagination and bite (D minus).

    Sorry I didn’t think you’d have the intelligence for anything more high-brow.

    Would you like to brick my coach instead?
    Can't stop the spirits when they need you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM25R View Post
    Sorry I didn’t think you’d have the intelligence for anything more high-brow.

    Would you like to brick my coach instead?
    But aren’t the bricks what are holding your coach up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie McWolf View Post
    But aren’t the bricks what are holding your coach up?
    Only if we've parked it in Warrington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_Claire View Post
    Only if we've parked it in Warrington
    Touchť

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    I'm over it now.

    Warrington deserved to win. Bit of luck but you make your own luck a lot of the time through a gameplan, persistence, execution & attitude.

    Warrington did that better than us & that is why they won. I've watched it back & have no complaints about the result. And we tried our best.

    They are slightly better than us I believe & the result reflects that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Fridge View Post
    I'm over it now.

    Warrington deserved to win. Bit of luck but you make your own luck a lot of the time through a gameplan, persistence, execution & attitude.

    Warrington did that better than us & that is why they won. I've watched it back & have no complaints about the result. And we tried our best.

    They are slightly better than us I believe & the result reflects that
    Very fair, not sure there is a cigarette paper between us.

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